Style Mixer Slider window revisited

[Lee Batchelor]

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but I'm back to square one 👿!!

I'm fixing my registrations where the Live Control box was not checked. I resave the registration with the Live Control box checked and the Slider window selected. It works until I load a different registration. When I load the one I fixed, it reverts to the Knob window again. I figured the original one must be corrupted, so I save it under a different name. It too works once but on opening it a second time, the Knob window appears. Same thing happens with subsequent registrations that were always working!!

It seems that even with the Live Control checked, it's not remembered and that fixing an existing registration never works. It sounds like a broken registration must be deleted and a new one created. That will take hours!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Is there no solution to this issue?? And please don't suggest the Freeze button. It seriously messes up some of the custom styles. Besides, it's not telling me why this crapola is happening in the first place. It's only a bandage. Murray's program is excellent but it won't work for this issue.

I never had this nonsense with the first Genos OS versions nor my Tyros models. I'm ready to toss this thing in the lake!!

[Lee Batchelor]

More info

There is no consistency in this error. The appearance of Slider vs. Knob windows is entirely random. The Slider window shows up on first pressing of a registration button (1-10) and the next time it shows the Knob window, despite the Live Control being checked and told to memorize the Slider window by default. I even loaded a bunch of registrations into Murray's program, made sure they were all correct, re-saved them, and then loaded them into my Genos. Murray's program says the registrations are fine. The Genos doesn't load them correctly. Stijn noted this and found it very odd.

I'm wondering if I need to invoke some of the reset functions. What happens when I do a Registration Reset? Do I loose all my registrations? What about a System reset?

[DerekA]

According to the Genos data manual, a registration should save "Sub Display Content" which I take it to mean showing slider .v. knob labels.

So it sounds like there is some kind of bug in this process. I wouldn't keep on banging my head off a brick wall if it just doesn't work consistently. All you can do is submit a bug report to Yamaha and see if they fix it in a future update (if there are any).

Why don't you just assign the knobs *and* the sliders to do whatever it is that's so critical for the sliders to do? Then it doesn't matter which one is displayed in the sub window. Not ideal, but better than fishing your Genos out of that lake. 😎

[Lee Batchelor]

I suspect you're right, Derek. I think there is a software bug in my Genos. If it required an update from Yamaha, there would be hundreds of users affected. I wonder how I submit this in Canada. Perhaps they can walk me through some key combo to see what's up. Thanks for chiming in.

[Lee Batchelor]

Okay, I just submitted my problem to Yamaha Canada and received a confirmation that they received my request. I'll post any updates.

[Lee Batchelor]

I spent my afternoon working on 50 registrations in one folder. I discovered that when I deleted the bad ones and recreated them, they worked perfectly. I also discovered that if one bad one was left behind and it was activated, it affected the fixed ones in that folder. Sort of "one rotten apple in a barrel spoils the lot." After I deleted the bad one, the rest went back to behaving correctly. Strange how one bad registration in a folder can affect the whole folder!

Looks like I have a bunch of corrupted registrations. I'm going to delete that bad ones and rebuild them. I'm not sure if this was due to me not including the Live Control check box for new registrations or some incompatibility brought over from the T5. Either way, it's manual labor to fix the rotten ones and hours of work. Maybe Yamaha will have a global fix. I doubt it though.

[Lee Batchelor]

Further updates

• I thought that if I cleaned up all registrations within a folder on the User drive, they would stay cleaned up. I tried switching to a different folder and came across another defective registration. I went back to my cleaned up folder and as soon as I chose the first one, it showed the Knobs again. This thing is like a virus! I can play dozens of registrations where the Slider first appears, play one where the Knobs appear, and that act carries through to the next "fixed Slider" registration. It only goes back to normal after I press the same registration button again.
  
• 
  I contacted Yamaha and they replied the next day. They wanted a full description of what's happening. They have a service depot about 50 minutes west of me. They'll likely want to see my Genos and run it through their diagnostic software. More to follow.
  

[EileenL]

I took it that saving Subs meant how you had the sub speakers set. I have often had someone say they have downloaded a registration and do not get any sound from the style. When looking into it I found they were set to Sub 1 or 2. When putting the ticks back into main they worked fine.

[Lee Batchelor]

Excellent thought, Eileen.

Some of my registrations (most in fact) have the Toms and Kick routed to the Sub Out 1 because they are way out of balance when played through large quality sound systems like mine. I don't know how Yamaha missed that! I know they don't play if I don't bother to route the Sub Out 1 to one of the channels in my external mixer.

How that would affect the Knob window being displayed versus the Slider window, when the Slider window was saved in the Live Control settings, is beyond me. I heard back from Yamaha support and they wanted a detailed description of what's going wrong. I sent it and am waiting to hear back. Personally, I think there is a corrupted file somewhere in my OS. This isn't over yet. I'm confident Yamaha will get to the bottom of it. I'll certainly let everyone know what they find.

[EileenL]

Hi Lee,
  I was only referring to the Sub display screen you talked about as I know it.
It dose not have anything to do with your problem. If you had made a master set up registration at the beginning with all the boxes you ticked for things you wanted to be saved and named it something like master, and then removed those ticks before saving any other banks it would worked as you want it to. On switch on just load in Master bank and then continue by playing your other registration banks.

[Lee Batchelor]

Good point, Eileen. The problem is, even when I correct that mistake on every registration that didn't have the Live Control box checked, the minute I open a defective registration, the problem is back and corrupts the registrations that were working fine. That shouldn't happen! Not everyone uses a Master registration. I will from here on though ! There's something wrong when a corrected file reverts to an incorrect file format. That's on Yamaha to fix.

I never had this problem with the first OS release in 2017. It's been a problem ever since these updates. Correct me if I'm wrong but there is no mention of needing to use a Master registration in any of the manuals. It's a great idea but the registrations shouldn't fail just because on or two incorrect registrations exist. The incorrect registrations are corrupting the correct ones. That's none of my doing. There's something wrong with my Genos.

[murrayb]

Lee:

I suggest that there is an o/s error after version2.0 that is causing this problem.  I'm behind on updating, still running version 2.0 and there is no problem at all with controlling the live control screen.

First, the existence of a registration bank in a folder that has a problem will have absolutely no effect on the keyboard as only the values of the registration bank being loaded update the settings. However, loading a corrupted file may distort other settings within the o/s.

Stijn, sent me a registration that was demonstrating the behavior you describe, and it opened properly on my Genos. I duplicated this registration (in YRM), and set each with a different live control screen and each operated correctly. 

The usual response in settings on the keyboard is to leave the previous settings unchanged if a registration doesn't contain a particular group.  That is why when you open a bank/button that contains a Song (MIDI or audio), that song will remain on the screen until you select a registration with a different song, and will be memorized in a subsequent registration (where you didn't want it) if song is checked.

So further testing revealed that the live control screen on my version of the o/s will stay at the last setting when a registration is opened that doesn't contain live control, it didn't revert to knob.

If the coding of the registration file is any example of the rest of the programming of the Genos o/s, there is lots of opportunity to create errors, and this is likely one of them.

Cheers,

Murray

[Lee Batchelor]

Wow, thanks Murray!

You've basically proven that there's something wrong with the Genos OS, later versions. What's troubling is I'm the only one reporting this problem. I wonder how many others are experiencing the same issue but could care less or just didn't see it. They just press Registration Button 1 a second time and the problem goes away. Also, if you use a bunch of registrations that don't have the knob setting set, you'll never see the problem. This is definitely a design problem where the registrations are not storing all the settings correctly. I may have discovered a flaw Yamaha has never seen. If I'm right, they need to fix their OS, and pronto!! It is a deal breaker for us gigging musicians.

I think it's safe to conclude that I have about 90% of my registrations saved with Live Control > Slider selected. It's that 10% where I failed to store those settings that is causing the issue. My only solution is to go though all of my registrations and make sure Live Control > Slider is selected and saved. If there's even one faulty registration, the whole apple cart is upset. Something else no one has thought of: What if you want (for example) 75% of your registrations stored with the Slider window and 25% with the Knob window. Obviously, it won't work as expected. Here's a scenario:

1 - Call Reg Bank 1 (Slider)
2 - Call Reg Bank 2 (Knob)
3 - Call Reg Bank 3 (Slider) You get Knob instead 👿!

I'll keep everyone posted about Yamaha's response. Thanks again, Murray!

[tyrosman]

i hope you get it sorted and hope we get an update

[Lee Batchelor]

Thanks, Tyrosman. Me too 😉. Something isn't right.

[Lee Batchelor]

Update
I haven't heard back from Yamaha Canada yet. I must have posed a real dome scratcher of a problem for them 🤣.

[Lee Batchelor]

I just received a reply from Yamaha Canada. He or she (no name was given in the reply) watched the video that Stijn made, which clearly demonstrates the issue. Thanks for that, Stijn!!

They've never seen this before, so I assume it will take time to resolve. I'm good with that. I suspect they'll need to contact the Yamaha software developers to see if they can resolve it. More to come, hopefully.

[vlbrgt]

@Lee or Stijn,

I just received a reply from Yamaha Canada. He or she (no name was given in the reply) watched the video that Stijn made, which clearly demonstrates the issue. Thanks for that, Stijn!!

Is that video available somewhere ?

Regards
Etienne

[Stijn]

Hi Etienne,

You can download the video here:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/nlotwery08hhu3r/genos%20regs.mp4?dl=0

Regards,
Stijn

[Lee Batchelor]

Thank you, Stijn! You saved me the exercise of re-creating the link .

Still no further word from Yamaha. I've come to my own conclusion. Regardless of the OS version, if you have 500 registration banks (for example), and if even one has the Live Control box unchecked in the Memory screen, it sours the entire barrel of apples and Yamaha has never anticipated this.

Fred said I should load the most recent OS. He's probably right but I doubt it will make a difference. If they had addressed the issue with one of their mysterious "other problems fixed" items, I would have expected the support team to email me back to say, "Download and install V2.13." Meanwhile, my request sits there rotting in their queue and they're no longer talking to me.

I have one solution left. Go through every Registration Bank and resave them all with the Live Control box checked. If there is a way to do such a batch edit in Murray's program, I'd be happy to use it but I'd also need well written, detailed instructions because in consultations with Murray, some of those Registrations' Live control settings don't show up in his program and need to be manually turned on. I may as well do them all on the Genos instead .

[vlbrgt]

I did some test and could not reproduce the problem exactly like on the video.
BUT I did found something about the double click on the buttom I think :

If I start with a template registration (Empty) that resides on the USER memory
and I save the created registration on the USER -> the double click seems to disappear.

If I start with a template registration (Empty) that resides on the USB
and I save the created registration on the USB -> the double click seems to disappear.

Only if I mix the USER template and USB save or vice versa it seems to need a double click on the REG button.
Switching from a good one to a mixed one gives the double click problem.

It has been a quick test.
Please verify if what i told is correct.

Regards
Etienne

[Lee Batchelor]

You're spot on, Etienne. Stijn did the same tests and came up with identical results. Here's the mystery: I never use USB sticks as a Reg Bank source. The results you got from mixing the User drive and USB sticks is what I'm getting with just my User drive. VERY annoying.

Thanks for spending the time to experiment. Therein lies the true value of this forum and the good people herein .

[vlbrgt]

@Stijn / Lee

The video you made, did you use your own registrations, or did you use registrations from Lee ?

Regards
Etienne

[Stijn]

I used Lee's registrations.
I don't have any registrations with that odd behavior.

Regards,
Stijn

[Stijn]

I have one solution left. Go through every Registration Bank and resave them all with the Live Control box checked. If there is a way to do such a batch edit in Murray's program, I'd be happy to use it but I'd also need well written, detailed instructions because in consultations with Murray, some of those Registrations' Live control settings don't show up in his program and need to be manually turned on. I may as well do them all on the Genos instead .

Lee, if you like I can try out the batch process for you.

Stijn

[Lee Batchelor]

Lee, if you like I can try out the batch process for you.
Stijn

That's an incredible offer, Stijn! I hate to take so much of your time. If you're willing, I can send them all through regular email. If they are fixed after you work your magic, you may have to send me a bill 🤣! I'll download the whole works from my Genos and send them off. Many thanks!

Edit
I have made a master template as per so many suggestions from the wise folks on this forum. I labeled them "_template piano" and "_template organ." The underscore forces them to the top of the list.

[vlbrgt]

@Stijn : thanks for the reply.

@Lee
The problem was not existing in 2.10 but came up with update 2.11.
Are there other users with the same problems ?

Fred said I should load the most recent OS

I think Fred is right somewhere.
Even reinstalling 2.10 or 2.11 could perhaps solve the problem, if not done yet ?
Perhaps when installing the 2.11 update there has been some issue : an unnoticeable electrical stutter or ... that made the update missing something.
I know you don't like to do that, but you already done it with the 2.10 and 2.11 update !
So, if I where in your position, I went for it.

Regards
Etienne

[Lee Batchelor]

I'm certainly leaning in that direction, Etienne. I'll likely update to 2.13 in the next day or so. Even if it works, I'll still have a bunch of registrations with the wrong default window. Perhaps the update will stop them from souring the rest.

[Stijn]

Lee,

Some of those registrations that you sent me a few weeks ago had a missing 'Edit Live Control' button in Murray's YRM application.
After I batch process those registrations they show the 'Edit Live Control' button again and the Slider B is selected.

Stijn

[Lee Batchelor]

It sounds like the correct slider is chosen. It's just turned off because the Live Control setting was not memorized. That makes sense. What doesn't make sense is why the registrations with the Live Control not memorized are contaminating the ones where it is memorized. This never happened prior to the 2.11 update.