s970 & s770 erratic behaviour / faulty [A] to [J] buttons - is yours affected?

[jwyvern]

Looking at Textbook's picture below, the buttons look as if they are sloped in a way to "streamline" rapid use when performing- provided the the RH buttons are being poked by the Left Hand fingers and vice versa. The current angle would conform better to that type of use.
Or I wonder whether maybe they anticipate going to a touch screen in future, in which case the fingers would be focussing around the screen and occasionally darting out to the buttons- again the slopes conforming better to this type of use. (Assuming touch screens will continue to have these buttons?).
Whatever the explanation, the current slopes seem not to be the best for left to left/right to right, direct from-the-shoulder use.

John

[Nick]

 I returned my 970  to Guitar Center and, had them order me a new one! The buttons started acting up again.   What we did was test the new keyboard at Guitar Center to make sure it worked before I left.   It worked perfectly.  Hopefully Yamaha  figures out what happened to the ones with this problem and, provide a  fix.  They were sending my old system back to Yamaha.

[Joe H]

Nick,

Thanks for the report.  That fact that only some keyboards are exhibiting the button problem suggests these may have a hardware problem.  Fortunately Yamaha had one in their possession in California that Steve Deming tested and experienced the issue first hand. All we can do is wait until Yamaha tells us they found a firmware fix or that some keyboards have defective switches that need replacing.

Joe H

[saulysw]

I'm thinking of buying a PSR-S770 but I was hoping to avoid this whole keys-not-working-right issue. Has anyone from Australia experienced this problem? I'm wondering if different countries got different shipments? If you are from Australia, when did you buy your keyboard? Thanks! Also, it appears this keyboard is hard to get at the moment - perhaps they are looking into some sort of fix?

[Happy Jack]

I'm thinking of buying a PSR-S770 but I was hoping to avoid this whole keys-not-working-right issue. Has anyone from Australia experienced this problem? I'm wondering if different countries got different shipments? If you are from Australia, when did you buy your keyboard? Thanks! Also, it appears this keyboard is hard to get at the moment - perhaps they are looking into some sort of fix?

   Hi, while you're waiting for a response from Australian owners: bought my PSR-S770 UK, August 2015, it developed the buttons issue, I reset keyboard but no change, so returned it for refund.  Great keyboard but didn't want to be stuck with one whose potential resale value was fried.

Possibly some light use owners haven't noticed their own button issue, or that they have noticed it but think it is a tolerable nuisance?   Typically it becomes apparent amid some button-heavy project, like working your way through hundreds of new styles / voices very generously shared by some members here.     

  Shop around for dealer's Return policy, some give a couple of weeks' probation period during which you can return it for full refund for no reason. But check their courier will collect at their own expense?

     PS: quote:   "...Also, it appears this keyboard is hard to get at the moment - perhaps they are looking into some sort of fix?..." unquote

      According to the UK price comparison website (pricespy.co.uk), there seems to be a good stock of PSR-S770s available at the moment of writing.

  good regards

[Rrgramps]

I'm thinking of buying a PSR-S770 but I was hoping to avoid this whole keys-not-working-right issue. Has anyone from Australia experienced this problem? I'm wondering if different countries got different shipments? If you are from Australia, when did you buy your keyboard? Thanks! Also, it appears this keyboard is hard to get at the moment - perhaps they are looking into some sort of fix?

I'm with you on wanting to avoid this issue.  I've been thinking about buying the PSR-970 since December, but just don't want the hassle of going through getting an item that expensive (for me) with a known discrepancy. 

It's a crying shame that Yamaha has not fixed the buttons issue when it was first brought up, but even worse, they've not acknowledged it.  The least they could do is owe up to it, admit that there is a problem, and offer a plan of correcting the problem.

Realizing that arrangers are a small market segment, nonetheless, they're going to lose some loyal customer(s). I'm close to not getting an arranger, and looking at pianos instead. Of course I'm looking at Yamaha's pianos, but Casio seems to be a sleeper and valid competitor.  Again, it's a crying shame, and I feel bad for you folks who have been putting up with this.

[Joe H]

Rrgramps,

Yamaha has acknowledged the problem exists. As has already been stated, it appears that those of us who got our keyboards in August (the first shipment) have this problem.  So it might be Yamaha has to identify the supplier of the buttons, switches, or the PNL boards under the buttons and determine what is the actual defective hardware part.

BTW... Steve Deming was informed that there are folks out here that feel the way you do and this issue is impacting sales to at least in some undetermined degree.

Joe H

[hifar5]

Saulysw.      I bought my PSR S970 2 weeks ago from Bavas Music in Sydney and have not experienced any problems with the buttons. The unit had the firmware version 1.04 already on it, so I am not sure if this is an indication of when it was manufactured, but so far everything is fine.                  Regards

[Happy Jack]

Rrgramps,

Yamaha has acknowledged the problem exists. As has already been stated, it appears that those of us who got our keyboards in August (the first shipment) have this problem.  So it might be Yamaha has to identify the supplier of the buttons, switches, or the PNL boards under the buttons and determine what is the actual defective hardware part.

BTW... Steve Deming was informed that there are folks out here that feel the way you do and this issue is impacting sales to at least in some undetermined degree.

Joe H

    Thanks, Joe, for your tenacity in looking for answers to this button blight issue, you're the Man.   

        "....Yamaha has acknowledged the problem exists..."

     Have they really?  But for the benefit of new comers, or for anyone unwilling to wade through 157 posts of this topic:   Would it be helpful for that acknowledgement please be pinned to the top of the page until this issue is resolved?

     "... it appears that those of us who got our keyboards in August (the first shipment) have this problem...."

        Don't know about that, Joe. At least three members of this forum have had their faulty PSR-S997/S770's keyboards replaced recently, and their replacement boards displayed the same fault, either immediately or soon after.    Also, here a quote from Textbook's post January 22nd:
   
    "...I popped into a music dealer there to check out a couple of pianos,  he has both the 770 and 970 models on display now, and on checking the 970 they had,  I found it too exhibited the same issue when pressing those control buttons, and when I pointed it out to the sales guy, he said...do you know I've never noticed that before I thought it was the way I pressed the button, he just shrugged it off as no big deal(unquote)

    Anyway, thanks again, Joe for your work so far.  Got my refund safely salted away, so patiently waiting for a happy resolution of this issue.

   happy regards
    Jack

   

[Joe H]

Jack,

I'm going to share a couple of these last posts with Steve Deming so he knows what the conversation is.  Your latest information is also helpful... so it isn't just those early shipments.  Yes... as I stated above it's a subtle malfunction that doesn't appear to be a problem but it is... and can be quite irritating when it happens a lot when we are trying to do some kind of setup and then have to start all over again because the keyboard Exited out of the screen we were working in.   

Joe H

[Nick]

Joe H

Just an FYI The original 970 I had was built in August with the 1.03 firmware loaded which I returned. The new one I have now was built in October with the 1.04 firmware loaded with no issue.  Also I don't know if they are all manufactured at the same location? My box said Made in Indonesia.

[Joe H]

Nick,

Thanks for the report.  Mine was also built in Indonesia.  I sent a recent link to Steve Deming at Yamaha asking him to forward it to "whom it may concern".  There have now been more than 6000 views of this thread, so I hope Yamaha is reading this info.

Joe H

[textbook]

Well Joe,  I've tried 2 or 3 system resets this week,  just to see if I could detect any improvement, and I'd love to be able say yes it occurred less often, but sadly I cannot.  Last week I even did a complete factory reset, ticking everything, so I had to setup all my expansion packs/registrations, everything again, just to see if that made any difference, but sadly not.

I still get the odd missed press,  which is almost eliminated if I remember to press on the high spot,  but still get the jump back to the main menu occasionally, especially when doing a lot of button pressing trying new voice mixes and setting up registrations.  This one also had v1.03 installed when it arrived so may well be old stock, possibly from same batch as the first.

I'm plodding on,  hoping that Yamaha will come up with something eventually. 

[Joe H]

Cameron,

The reset only helps some but doesn't get rid of the problem as we  all know now.   I'd like to suggest you send Steve Deming your keyboard serial number and ask him to add it to the official list of boards with the button problem.  You may be in the UK but he has at least acknowledged and experienced the problem for himself.  He indicated he has forwarded the info to whomever needs to know about it.  It's worth a try.

Steve Deming: supportreply@yamaha.com

Make sure you include "Attention Steve Deming" in the subject box of your email.

Regards,
Joe H

[textbook]

Thanks Joe...Yes will do.

[saulysw]

Well, I have placed an order for S770, so here is hoping we don't get a dud. Fingers crossed. Thanks for all the replies to my question.

[Rrgramps]

Well, I have placed an order for S770, so here is hoping we don't get a dud. Fingers crossed. Thanks for all the replies to my question.

I really hope it works out good for you, Saul. 

[Joe H]

et al,

I received an email from Steve Deming at Yamaha today.  It is below.  We can be grateful that Steve has shown interest in getting the message to the right people. 


We have been heard!


"Hi Joe,

Thank you for your input. I have already forwarded your concerns (and the PSR tutorial information) to both QC and Marketing. I would not expect a response very soon. It's not my area, but in my experience, it takes a while for these things to be worked out.

Steve Deming"


Cheers,
Joe H

[Joe H]

I just discovered something new today related to the button issue...

I was reading the Reference Manual and found we can change the way the buttons function.

FUNCTION -> UTILITY-> CONFIGURATION 2 ->VOICE CATEGORY BUTTON OPTIONS ->OPEN ONLY

It appears that the default setting is OPEN AND SELECT.  Since I changed to the option Open Only setting, I must very definitely "double press" to EXIT out of the Voice screen.  I haven't used this setting enough yet to determine if this will completely stop the erratic button behavior when selecting a Voice.

Others might want to try this also to see if it makes a difference and report back here with their findings.

Joe H

[Ed B]

Hi
Mine is in "Open and Select" but I do not seem to have the issue so far.

Ed B

[Joe H]

Greetings Ed,

That fact that only a certain number of S770 and S970 owners are experiencing the erratic button operation suggests a hardware problem from  a particular manufacturing facility or maybe a parts supplier, IE; some defective part(s).  Whether it be the physical buttons, switches or the circuit board associated with the [A] - [J] button operation.

The OPEN ONLY option appears to require a distinct double-press of the buttons to EXIT out of any particular Voice Category folder.  I think ANY consistent behavior we can establish may be helpful in trouble shooting the problem.

I am hopeful that Yamaha engineers will be thorough in THEIR trouble shooting efforts. The fact that a System Reset makes a difference and changing the button function to OPEN ONLY makes a difference should be clues pointing to the root cause and a fix.

Regards,
Joe H

[textbook]

An interesting observation Joe,   I tried it myself, with just 'OPEN' enabled,  and after selecting a couple of pages of voices one after another,  I was starting to think...positive thoughts, and then it jumped back out again,  in fact twice in succession.

I'm still trying to decide what the difference is between those 2 voice button settings, as 'Open' would suggest you need to press again to select it,  but that's not the case at all,  I'm not seeing any behaviour difference when using those 2 button options...which is  strange.

Those 2 voice catagory button options,  you would think that if set to 'OPEN'  it would'nt switch voice until pressed again, but it does.
IOW if set to 'OPEN' in theory you would need to press twice, 1 to open it and a 2nd press to select it.

I did notice that this issue of jumping back out,  also occurs if I'm browsing a pen-drive full of Midi files,  where say one midi is playing,  and you press a second midi, and it highlights it with the word 'Next'  as normal and then a second press starts to play the new midi file,  well just occasionally it will jump out to the 'Live Control Screen'.

I'll do further experimentation today,  putting this button issue one side for a moment...  I'm struggling to see any difference in actual use between these 2 category button options...ie. 'OPEN' and 'OPEN/SELECT'   which is very strange as one would think there would be a distinct difference in how they worked when you selected voices,  or am I missing something here, and I've not woke up yet...lol

Anyway Joe,  it's certainly an interesting find, as I certainly never noticed it,   now I need to find out exactly what it does...lol   
With it set to 'Open' are you seeing any difference in how the buttons work ?   do you now have to press twice to make a change ? or does it still function as before,  as I don't seem to be seeing any difference at all....weird.

EDIT:
One thing is definite on mine anyway,  if I press on that high point of the buttons it always works okay 'every-time',  but if press the buttons anywhere else and it will frequently exit back to main screen.  I just pressed the buttons 80 times using the hight point and it never missed once or bounced me back to the main screen,  but it just bounced me back to main screen on the 5th press when pressed in the centre. So the workaround also seems to vary a little between boards it seems.

I'll have a read of the manuals to see what it has to say about those to 2 voice category button options, as I'm not seeing any difference at all whichever one I set it for.

Cameron

[Joe H]

Hi Cameron,

After setting the button function to "OPEN", what happens is when you select (press) a Voice Category,  it opens to that Voice folder without actually selecting (highlighting) the first Voice in the folder,  yes you have to then press a button to select a Voice.  I selected a bunch of Voices very quickly and it worked normal as it should.  to EXIT out of the Voice screen it required a very distinct double-press.

If your keyboard is not behaving this way then that is an interesting condition.

I too have had the experience of the screen exiting out to a previous screen such as the Harmony/Arpeggiator screen or the Live Control screen... which in those cases was the previous screen I was in.

Did you ever update your keyboard to firmware v1.04?  If you haven't you might get a different result with the buttons.  As stated earlier,  it doesn't seem to make a difference with my board whether I press on the high-side or in the middle of the button.  I'm leaning toward the position that this is a hardware issue since the problem is not wide spread.

Joe H

[textbook]

Hi Joe,  thanks for the explanation,   yes mine is behaving the same way,  it does select the first voice if the 'Open/Select' option is chosen.
I think I had my wires crossed earlier, it didn't click with me that it only applied to the 1st voice when going into the voice category screen,  I was still asleep... and yes I am on v1.04,   that was one of the first things I did when it arrived.

I'm trying to decide whether having that option set to 'Open' is actually better or not....lol,  one things for sure it's certainly NOT worse, as it only applies to the first voice when you go to the voice category screen.   I just pressed through about 20 voices pressing in the centre of the button and I managed 20 presses before it popped me back out again.

I can see why having it set to 'OPEN'  would certainly stop it reverting back out immediately when first going into the voice category screen,  but once in the voice category screen and maybe trying different voices it does nothing to aid the problem of exiting back out.
IOW it only decides whether the FIRST voice is PRE-SELECTED or not,  I don't think it makes any difference afterwards when selecting different voices inside the voice category screen. ?   Have you had yours bounce you back out immediately you went into that voice category screen  ?   I can't say I have,  mine nearly always happens when trying new voice mixes and storing them to registrations as that's when I tend to do more button bashing.

I'm also of the opinion that it is a hardware issue, maybe just a simple alignment issue with the pcb board below the buttons, causing a double bounce,  if it wasn't for the warranty I'd have probably opened it up by now.   I still think a short delay in firmware after getting the 1st press would solve it.
Personally, because it's a weird one to actually pin down with a definitive cause, and indeed it's behaviour is not predictable,  I think there's more out there,  but many owners are simply not aware, as it's not exactly an obvious black n white problem, if it were it would be much easier..lol

[Joe H]

Cameron,

I just tried selecting Voices again this morning, randomly selecting Voices very fast and could not get the screen to EXIT as it does with it set to the OPEN AND SELECT option.  So... we don't all get the same result.. interesting!           

BTW... With the Voice Select set to just "OPEN" this works the same way as when selecting style, Multi Pad, Song and MP3 files, IE; when you press a button a folder is opened but no file is highlighted until you actually select it.

Cheers,
Joe H

[Patrick]

Hi Joe, Yamaha must replace the button along the screen by a touch screen as i think all the S970 have this problem; i remember that the S910 had already some problems like this with the buttons; Yamaha can also try to have a connection with a tablet (Ipad) and we could use the tablet to make all the settings we want from the tablet! Joe again thanks a lot for the hard work for all, cheers Patrick

[Joe H]

Hi Patrick,

I think you are correct saying that the S910 would EXIT a screen once in awhile... but did not do that very much.  The OPEN ONLY option is something that is not on the S910.   

I don't know about a touch screen though.  I personally would rather not have a touch screen on my arranger  keyboard.  Direct Access gets us anywhere we want to go with 2 button presses... Direct Access plus 1 more.  How can a touch screen be any better than that or any faster?       Many destinations can be accessed from the Main Screen with one button press.

Cheers,
Joe H

[textbook]

I'm with Joe on this one,  I'm not a big fan of touch screens, great for tablets but not on my keyboards anyway,  and I don't have to keep cleaning the screen.  I have a  touch screen on my 88 Casio Piano, and though yes it works perfectly it does mean it needs cleaning frequently, but each to their own.   I have a feeling however that Yamaha will be going this direction in future models as it's actually cheaper than having lots of buttons.  IME it works better on larger screens, the one on my Casio would have been much better had it been larger.

The direct access is a great feature which I use an awful lot,  it just makes things so easy,  funny enough, only yesterday,  I was showing my Vicar neighbour how to make more of the 'Direct Access' feature on his 770 as he never used it at all previously, and didn't know what it was for.

[Chronos1976]

Hi everyone!

Sorry I've not been around to discuss this, I've been ill all of Jan and Feb and just recovering. So a belated happy new year to everyone.

Anyway, I got a replacement PSR s970 from Yamaha before Christmas which they tested to their satisfaction before sending. When the buttons are pressed on the outside or middle of the buttons I don't get the issue at all but pressing the inside of the button still causes the problem but only very occasionally rather than every few key presses as before. I spoke to UK support about this because it seems like the buttons need a better guide - pressing on the outside forces the buttons straight down against the plastic surround.

Yamaha told me this is exactly the behaviour their reference unit exhibits and is to be expected on this type of button - the button, as I understand it, pushes a bubble style contact and any roll in the button can cause a double press. Of course, the buttons do wobble a little due to the large hole in the surround and don't seem to have a guide so this is always a possibility.

I have an M Audio Keystation that uses rubber buttons with much shorter travel and never has any problems. There must be a reason Yamaha choose buttons with such a long travel in them, perhaps it shares the circuit board with the screen although I don't understand why that is set back so far behind the plastic either - the contrast of the screen would be better if it was directly behind the plastic or even better bonded directly to it in the style of Apple Macbook Pro laptops (which actually uses glass).

Also, Yamaha did acknowledge that the keyboards I returned had faulty circuit boards. So there are faulty keyboards out there. But it seems the occasional double press is to be expected because of the design of the keyboard. What puzzles me though, is why this problem never came up with the PSR s950 and PSR s750 which uses the same style of button - perhaps their different shape ensures a more direct press of the button onto the contact? However, I think the raised outer edge of the keys on the new keyboards is supposed to push the button outwards against the plastic to guide it to the contact.

Also, I don't understand how this issue wasn't picked up in the design stage because a plastic guide either side of the button would ensure only a direct press was possible wherever the button was pressed.

At least now I have a normally functioning PSR s970 that I can use and enjoy.

Regards,

Paul.

[Joe H]

Paul,

Thanks for this update.  So it sounds like a hardware problem and some of us need a circuit board replaced.  I should pass this along to Steve Deming just so the right hand knows what the left hand is doing.   

Cheers,
Joe H