s970 & s770 erratic behaviour / faulty [A] to [J] buttons - is yours affected?

[textbook]

It's certainly a strange one Roger,  for example I re-installed the same version firmware earlier this evening, and though I admit I was a little sceptical when Joe said it seemed to improve things on his 970.  However having done the same thing, so in effect I'm still running the same version firmware but re-installed,  and further testing while setting up more registration banks does definitely show a big improvement,  which sort of defeats all logic...lol.   It hasn't cured it 100%  as it exited twice earlier, but it's certainly happening much less, indeed if it stayed like this I'd be perfectly happy.   Just twice in one evening is a hell of an improvement compared to how often it did it previously.

That's the main problem Roger,  it's not like something you can put your finger on,  we are all trying different things just to see if it alleviates the issue, as Joe has been doing to his credit.  In reality re-installing the firmware shouldn't make a scrap of difference,  but it has definitely improved things, so now we have to ask why ?

As far as I can see it's not changed any of my settings by re-installing it.   I just set up a extra 3 registration banks so thats 30 in total which in the process I went through quite a lot of various voice mixes with the odd change of octave to one voice to get the sound I liked, so a lot of button pushing and it never gave a problem,  though I do think my getting in the habit of pressing near the outside of the button every-time is playing a positive roll too, IOW I've learned how to press them to avoid the issue, and so I tend to do it automatically now.

I do think, the problem is caused by it picking up a double press of the button, so likely a hardware issue of some sort,  but at the same time I suspect a small time delay of  a few milli-seconds after detecting the first contact would possibly solve it too.
The problem is if your a manufacturer who say has sold say 50,000,  and you have few dozen with this issue but no-one else is reporting it,  you are unlikely to issue a potential firmware fix that may or may not fix it, and risk issues with all the other 49,800+ boards out there which to all intents and purposes are working fine.   Therefore the only option for Yamaha is to advise those afflicted by the issue to send them in for repair, and I suspect because it's not a major issue, not many will bother doing so, myself included, unless it begins to get worse of course, and I think they know that, as probably very few have been sent in for repair.

The big question is why should a re-install of the same version firmware noticeably improve things,   surely that is telling us something ?   clearing out some crap..lol some setting being reset...weird..Joe always reckoned that a system reset helped his 970,  coincidence or not,  it's so hard to tie it down...we need a Sherlock Holmes on the case.

I wouldn't mind so much if Yamaha acknowledged the issue, and came up with a few idea's,  but they won't do that as it would be admitting there's an issue with some models, and Yamaha Keyboards are perfect...right!....well their piano could be better...lol  sorry couldn't resist that..lol

[Joe H]

Roger,

As a beta tester it requires patience, persistence, and a willingness to perform redundant tasks.  And once you identify some quirk... you have to try to repeat the error by some identifiable procedure that can also be reproduced by the programmer.

This is not the case here.  It's like a cat and mouse chase.  Once in awhile we see the little critter, then she's gone. Only to reappear when you least expect it.

This is a tough nut to crack.

Regards,
Joe H

[Roger Brenizer]

There have been over 7900 views of the thread.  If this is "normal", why aren't more people posting stating that they had this experience with the S950 or are experiencing the same issues with the [A] - [J] buttons on their S970 or S770?        

My previous comment had to do with the above quote by you and not the technical issue itself.  Believe me when I say, I'm familiar with the testing process we are both used to performing.  I just think that the majority of keyboard players fall into the category of "I don't want to be bothered with this issue" and go on about their business of playing the keyboard.

On behalf of the members here, thank you for your persistence and diligence concerning this matter.  I, too, hope that Yamaha is listening.

[billmc]

   Perhaps Yamaha is using us as their beta-testers. It wouldn't be the first time. I recall some PSR keyboards having issues with their displays. And, as I've mentioned, I recall a whole slew of Yamaha digital pianos where the keys would break at the pivot, inducing Yamaha to replace the whole keybed for people, whether under warranty or not.

Having said all of that, I'm happy with my new S770. But I'm well aware of the manufacturer's desire to produce these keyboards with as much power as possible (bells and whistles to keep us happy) while keeping production costs low and profits high. It's always a balancing act for them. And it's a risk for us when we "upgrade", which usually has pros and cons to it. In many ways, I miss my old PSR3000, though it is certainly now obsolete and way behind the cutting edge of what these newest arrangers can do.

In my experiences, I was always pressing the middle of the button. Perhaps this is part of the problem. But I still think it is an issue that Yamaha should address. We may only be a few of the 50000 that have bought these keyboards, but many of us who love them faithfully upgrade every couple of years when the newest models come out. That should count for something. Something more than being a beta-tester.

[textbook]

Roger:
Yes I think your right, and the majority tend to ignore this small annoyance,  my neighbour for example has one registration bank set up,  all with various church organ voices, because being a church minister that's his main use for his 770 and I doubt he get 25% out of his 770 which it's capable of giving,  I don't think I've ever heard him play many other voices, organ and occasional piano and that's about it.   He certainly wasn't too bothered when I pointed this issue of exiting out of the voice category screen, he assumed it was supposed to do that.

billmc:
Do you find it helps if you do press the raised outside part of the button on your 770 ?  IOW does it mainly occur when pressed in the centre, which is certainly the case with the ones I've had,  though my first one would still do it occasionally if pressed on the high spot,  but on this 2nd 970, if I press on the outside of the button it's fine.

[Roger Brenizer]

I doubt this has anything with this issue, but it's just a thought, which is relative to our land surveying business.  We've owned a myriad of various electronic devices over the years, which interface with computers, robotic totals stations and data collectors.  Many of these devices had buttons that were a four-way toggle (left, right, up, down) and some were even a five way toggle adding the center of the button to the selection process.  Every direction toggled a different function and message sent or received from the device.

Now, having said that, many times only a few of these toggles were active and the other directions were supposed to do absolutely nothing.  The manufacturer simply built the device and that particular button for future use.  These buttons have been known to activate an entirely different message sent or received than intended, even though they were supposed to be disabled.  We then reported the problem and shortly thereafter received a firmware upgrade from the manufacturer.

I just thought I'd throw that in the mix for what it's worth.  Probably not much use, but a shot in the dark.

[Joe H]

Roger,

You must be reading my mind (or the other way around).  I'm going to send an "official report" to the tech support guy I started with (and copied to Steve Deming).  My intent is tell ****** what we know and have experienced and ask that he forward this information to Japan.

Sound like a plan?   

Joe H

[Roger Brenizer]

Hi Joe,

Yes, it definitely sounds like a very good plan to me.  Please keep us updated with your findings, as I'm sure you will.

[szwarc]

I have send my PSR-s970 to yamaha serwis (M. Ostrowski Sp. J. al. Armii Krajowej 5, 50-541 Wrocław tel. +48 71 79 74 605 email: serwis@muzyczny.pl http://muzyczny.pl in Poland).

Today my instrument come bac and THEY do nothing - they say that everything is ok. That this model (psr-s970) just have that and that they cant do nothing with this.

"The described occurrence is occasionally appearing at naciścnięciu of button in his lowermost part, it isn't the defect but the feature of this model which doesn't influence acting at the correct use of the button. The instrument stayed thoroughly tested and is truly efficient."

Instrument come back in unorginal paper and scratched casing.

I didn't accept the instrument and I sent him again.

Can you tell me what i can do whit this ?

[Joe H]

szwarc,

My concern has been that if a keyboard is taken to a Yamaha Service Center for testing and the buttons work OK during the Diagnostic Test... then we will be told that nothing is wrong with the keyboard.  And this is what has happened to you.

Now you have a keyboard that is scratched.  I suggest you file a complaint with your dealer, and Yamaha Tech Support and demand a replacement keyboard.

I am working on sending detailed information to Yamaha about all of our concerns including your report (but without any names).  It appears that Yamaha has chosen to not find a fix for this problem.  when the screen EXITS to a previous screen or the Main Screen when you do not want it to... this is not "normal" and is NOT a "feature" of the keyboard.   

I'm going to make one last effort and make an appeal to Yamaha to fix this problem, and will share that information here.

Joe H

[textbook]

szwarc.

As Joe stated,  I would most definitely be complaining quite loudly,  if I had sent a keyboard away for repair and it came back in that condition I would be demanding a new replacement.   That is really shameful of Yamaha Service and does not inspire much confidence in them does it,  and to not fix the problem either truly beggars belief.    Did you check serial number to ensure its the same  keyboard you sent them.?

After seeing how Yamaha treats your keyboard if it ever has to go back for repair, as shown in pictures above and with my experience with these A-E/F-J  buttons on my 970 which is compounded by Yamaha UK's  lack of willingness to admit there's a button issue on some of these models,  instead they suggest we press them on the high spot of the button only, they will then work     I for one am quickly losing any confidence I ever had in their products.   TBH I suspect this 970 will likely be my LAST Yamaha keyboard purchase, as out of 4 Yamaha keyboards purchased by myself since early last year only one was 100% perfect,  all the other three had issues.

The PSR-S443 I bought my granddaughter worked perfectly,  a 670 I bought myself was damaged on arrival, badly chipped on the front, with a Keybed thats was so poor it's keys were catching each other, so that went straight back.  the new T5 the 61 key version I bought lasted 3 days before the power supply board packed up rendering the keyboard dead, so that went back,  my 970 works okay except for this A-E/F-J button problem.   IOW out of 4 brand new Yamaha keyboards only one was perfect, which happened to be the cheapest one,  all the other 3 new ones all had issues,  which is a 25% success rate,  what confidence I had in Yamaha's keyboards is quickly disappearing.   

I translated it from Polish, the Yamaha Service Report above is basically saying  there is no defect,  but it's a normal feature of these  particular model keyboards when you press in the the lower/centre part of the buttons,   so there you have it,  there's nothing wrong at all,  we are just imagining it,    It's normal for it to exit out of the voice category screen on it's own. 
Truly unbelievable. If they want another video showing the problem,  I'd be happy to provide one, as I can replicate the issue quite easily by pressing them in the centre or lower part of the button.

[billmc]

Textbook, I loaded quite a few songs tonight (about 20 page-tabs worth) and pressed on the high side of the A-J buttons. Doing this, my keyboard never backed out of the Song menu back to the Main menu. But this doesn't convince me that there is not a problem. I agree with Joe who said that the keyboard should never leave a screen unless it is prompted to do so.

I'm an electronic technician by occupation and I would much prefer a hard failure than something like this that is illusive and intermittent. I know what it is like for a customer to complain that their unit is not working correctly and I can't get it to fail on my bench. In such cases (and in my field), we often subjected the complained-about units to vibration tests, heat tests, cold tests, and endurance tests to try to force them to fail at our facility. We weren't always successful. And there were times when we gave some customers a brand new unit. But based on what this thread says, I doubt a brand new unit would "cure" my particular problem. IMO, even if it is a matter of where on the button it is pushed, it is still a design failure and Yamaha should make it right, at least for the customers who complain about it.

[textbook]

billmc.

I agree, if they are pressed on the high point of the buttons mine generally works fine too,  and that basically is what Yamaha are saying,  and in their opinion it's merely a feature of these Yamaha keyboards,  even though it would seem this feature was not added to ALL 970/770 models...lol

So in the event we ever sell them, we just have to tell the purchaser,  to always press the button on the outside high point of the buttons,  it works fine, it's not faulty, it's a feature of these boards so nothing to worry about....because Yamaha said so.. which should allay any fears the purchaser might have.... would it convince any potential buyer ?...I think not. 
The fact is no matter how you paint it,  the damn things have button faults.

[szwarc]

The instrument was sent again for the service, I didn't collect him including standing. I think, that of button A-J they are out of order correctly and it is certainly the defect in the instrument rather than the feature. If was it is a feature there would be any description about it in the instruction.

[szwarc]

https://youtu.be/eoq0859RTIY

[Happy Jack]

The instrument was sent again for the service, I didn't collect him including standing. I think, that of button A-J they are out of order correctly and it is certainly the defect in the instrument rather than the feature. If was it is a feature there would be any description about it in the instruction.

  Hi, many thanks for your video link, which is very helpful:

https://youtu.be/eoq0859RTIY
 
    The intro text of your video says:

    "wada występująca w instrumentach YAMAHA PSR-S970. Próbuję ją zareklamować ale firma Yamaha broni się i twierdzi, że jest to cecha a nie wada."

used an online translator:   Frequent defect occurring in the instruments YAMAHA PSR - S970 /S770.   I'm trying to advertise it but Yamaha defence says it is a feature and not a defect.

        (the addition of S770 is mine, since both models share this    feature).

    regards, Jack

[Joe H]

et al,

OK... here is what I have done.  I sent another email to Steve Deming at Yamaha USA.  It is a synopsis of all we have discussed here with excerpts from 71 posts highlighting our concerns and assessments of what the problem is and how to fix it.

I reproduce the email message to Steve below:

"Steve,

I said in my last email to you I wasn't going to bother you anymore regarding the erratic button issue on the PSR S770 and PSR S970 arranger keyboards, but I feel compelled to do so because the responses keyboard owners are receiving from Yamaha dealers and Tech Support that are having a negative impact on the PSR community.

There have been 225 posts and nearly 8500 views of the discussion regarding this button malfunction as of today 3-3-16.

Yamaha is making two statements that contradict one another:

1."There have been no reports of the problem"
2. "This is normal operation and a feature of the keyboard"

Here's what we know:

1. The erratic and unpredictable exiting out of the current screen we are working in is NOT "Normal"
2. The erratic and unpredictable exiting out of the current screen we are working in is NOT a feature of the PSR arranger.
3.  The button problem exists with ALL versions of firmware
4.  Doing a re-install of the firmware helps reduce the problem, but doesn't eliminate it
5.  Doing a System Reset helps reduce the problem, but doesn't eliminate it
6.  Changing the Voice Selection option in Config2 to OPEN ONLY helps reduce the problem, but does not eliminate it
7.  Knowledgeable and credible people with programming and beta testing experience understand there is a problem and that it can be fixed

Here's what else we know:

8.  People are becoming concerned and even angry with Yamaha for not taking this hardware/software problem serious
9.  People are loosing confidence in Yamaha as a company
10. People are concerned about the resale value of their keyboard with malfunctioning buttons
11. Some people have, or are considering returning their keyboards
12. Some people are abandoning the idea of buy a Yamaha keyboard and purchasing another brand

If I knew of someone else at Yamaha who could address this problem directly I would do that.  I know you have forwarded my previous correspondence, and appreciate that very much. We hope Yamaha gets serious about fixing the problem.  And yes... there is a problem and it is fixable. 

I've read the published statements from the President of Yamaha Corporation, and the company's philosophy. The President promotes integrity within the company and dedication to producing the highest quality products. I would hope (and I'm not referring to you in this case) Yamaha personnel would heed his advice.

http://www.yamaha.com/about_yamaha/corporate/message/index.html


Below are excerpts from 71 post on the PSR Tutorial Forum as of March 3, 2016

Please forward this latest information to whomever  has the authority and willingness address this serious problem

Regards,
Joe Hlifka"

[the 71 excerpts , excluding any names or member IDs followed my above message]

I don't know what else I can do at this point.   

Joe H

[textbook]

You are doing your best Joe, which I can assure you is greatly appreciated by all of us suffering this button problem.

I do think more Youtube videos might help, and so to further illustrate the button problem on these keyboards I too will also upload one to Youtube over the next few days, in English of course,  I might also upload one in French.

However I will video my neighbours 770,  which suffers from this problem terribly,  his 770 is far worse than my first 970,  on his 770 board it does it all the time, if one can manage 3 presses of the buttons without exiting to the main screen your lucky.  If it had been mine it would have gone back ages ago, but initially he didn't seem overly bothered, though I think even he is getting rather annoyed by it now, especially since I showed him how to set up multiple registration banks, so he's been doing more button pressing  just lately.

Thanks again Joe.

Cameron

[Roger Brenizer]

Thank you, Joe, for your undying, unwavering and persistent commitment to the members here.

[Joe H]

Roger,

The best any of us can do is speak the truth... and stand up for what is right.



Joe H

[Roger Brenizer]

Hi Joe,

You and I share the same philosophy in this regard.  There is no other way we should approach anything that confronts us in our lives.

Thank you, once again!

[Ed B]

Thanks Joe for your efforts.
So far I have not experienced this but I am watching this thread closely. I am pleased with the 970 so far the only complaint is the keyboard bed is clunky compared to some of the other models maybe that's to make it more piano like.
Regards
Ed B

[Joe H]

Ed B,

Thank you for your comment.  What makes this issue so difficult is that only a limited number of keyboards are effected, which suggests it is a hardware problem. 

But the real mystery lies in the FACT that reinstalling the current firmware and System Reset mitigate this unpredictable button behavior.  If it was strictly a hardware issue... I believe reinstalling the OS firmware or a System Reset would make NO difference at all.

It is baffling that many keyboards do not exhibit the button problem at all, and some are minimal, and yet there are others that are rather extreme with the button problem.   

Joe H

[Roger Brenizer]

Hi Joe,

I've been trying to deduce everything I have been following in this thread.  I'm sure that Yamaha keeps a record of what employee assembled and inspected each keyboard as well as what batch of parts were used in the construction of each individual keyboard also. 

So here's another shot in the dark.  Could this problem be traced to faulty workmanship in the assembly process by an employee or a group of employees and further, could this problem be related to a faulty batch of parts used on the affected keyboards?

[androidgalaxyman]

That's amazing Joe.

[Joe H]

et al,

I received a reply from Steve Deming at Yamaha USA.  He called me on the phone and we talked for about 20 minutes.  I think he may have been put off a little by my email.  He had told me before that Yamaha Engineers in Japan were aware of the button problem.  He reiterated that assertion today.  So... they are working on it!

He made a point to say that he has no control over the lack of information or misinformation from dealers or Yamaha repair centers in the USA or other countries.  He suggested we just RELAX and wait.  Don't bother taking your keyboard in for repairs... as my local repair guy said to ME... no repair bulletin has been issued, so therefore NO Yamaha Repair Center will know anything about the problem or how to fix it... yet.

I told him what I have done and how it improved my keyboard.  He said... that may BE the fix for all we know.  They may say there is nothing wrong... just re-install the firmware, or there may be a firmware fix.  All we can do is wait.

So I will again suggest to all who have the button problem.  Re-install your v1.04 firmware, then do a System Reset by holding down the right-most white key and power ON your keyboard. You may also try setting the Voice select option to OPEN ONLY in Config2.

As far as I'm concerned... I'm going to enjoy my S970 keyboard.  The button problem is so minimal after doing the re-install firmware and Reset procedure that I am going to let the issue rest.

The dealers know nothing, the repair centers know nothing; so don't spend anymore time on them.  Sooner or later we will hear from Yamaha.

Maybe the Moderator should lock this thread.  There is nothing more any of us can contribute.  Yamaha has heard us.  AND... there is nothing more to complain about at this point.

Time to go play some music!



Cheers,
Joe H 

[textbook]

Thanks Joe for the update,  and indeed I want to thank you for your persistence with this button problem, and understand your desire to get back to some playing,  I can see you feel your've taken it as far as possible.  Which is understandable.. so a big thanks for your persistence and contributions in this thread to date Joe,  your efforts have been much appreciated.

However, I don't think the topic should be closed,   as others are still reporting the problem as seen by the 2 or 3 new members posts in this thread recently,  otherwise members who find they have the problem will simply be starting new topics highlighting the problem. So I think it's better if everything relating to this button problem is kept in this one thread. 

I certainly think it's a little premature to be thinking about closing it,  people that don't have the problem don't have to read it,  but there are still a few of us who still need a thread where we can share information and make suggestions which may or may not help.  Indeed our recent discovery about re-installing the firmware which seems to help shows there's still a need for this thread to continue,  if only to share information on this button problem as the issue certainly hasn't gone away, as there are 19 individual users just in this thread who have reported button issues, plus I know of 4 others,  in fact I believe there are lots more out there with this issue....ooops..sorry...I mean feature..lol

What do other members with this problem feel ?  Do you think this thread should be closed or continue ?

For myself,  I'm quite happy to take it forward, as I too can also be quite persistent.  When I get chance I may open up my 970 and take a look at those buttons, maybe I can learn something, or maybe not, and take a few pics.  I'm certainly not too concerned about voiding the warranty.

Cameron

[Joe H]

HI Cameron,

I think Yamaha has failed in one regard... they could have issued a memo to ALL dealers and Service Centers around the world letting them know Engineers in Japan have received reports of the button problem and are investigating the problem.  That should be an easy thing to do.  Steve could also have posted here himself or directed someone else to do so and state publicly "on the record" what he told me on the phone privately.  This is a no brainer.

I have no arguments with continuing this thread.  Steve DID also say that if he hears anything new regarding the button problem he will personally let me know. But why not come on this Forum and post the info for everyone to read? 

I am playing my keyboard and really liking it.  I'm working on a new arrangement using the arpeggiator and LIVE CONTROL knobs.  I just love my new keyboard!



Joe H

[Happy Jack]

  Hi all interested users.

    All below is entirely my personal opinion: 

   I think it would be a mistake to close this topic for the following reasons: 

     1:  Any future reporters of the button blight issue on their PSR-S770/S970 might think their own faulty keyboard is unique in the button blight respect.  They might feel aggrieved to learn later of many similar complaints.

     2:  Better, surely, to wait until Yamaha gives a definitive (written) acknowledgement of this issue and inform us of their plans to rectify the fault, as it seems to me that Yamaha are hoping that ignoring this problem will make it disappear.   

    3:  Where do the Yamaha keyboard stockists stand on this issue? Have they taken the time to try the button test to all their PSR-S770/S970 models, and can now say without doubt that they are selling only the fully working models?

     4:  Where is Yamaha's opposite number of Mike Martin of Casio, who would have rolled back his sleeves, come online, and sorted this problem in the first instance, rather that seeing it creep into the multiple thousand reads?

     5: This topic's heading will be familiar to all regular members by now, so anyone who wishes to avoid it knows not to click on it.

     Many thanks to our own Joe H for bearing the stress of keeping this issue going. Thanks also to  Joe W..... who runs this great Yamaha PSR Tutorial forum.

      Seems to me that the big fix for the buttons problem is a way off, (maybe even not coming at all). I have just acquired a pre-owned Yamaha PSR-E433 for the time being as another PRS-S770 costs too much money to risk getting stuck with one of the runts of the PSR-S770 litter.

     Consider this: should you try to sell your treasured PSR-S770 / 970 via a popular auction site: you might now expect to be asked:

    Are the A-J buttons of this instrument fully functioning with no issues?  

        regards, Jack

[androidgalaxyman]

  Hi all interested users.

    All below is entirely my personal opinion: 

   I think it would be a mistake to close this topic for the following reasons: 

     1:  Any future reporters of the button blight issue on their PSR-S770/S970 might think their own faulty keyboard is unique in the button blight respect.  They might feel aggrieved to learn later of many similar complaints.

     2:  Better, surely, to wait until Yamaha gives a definitive (written) acknowledgement of this issue and inform us of their plans to rectify the fault, as it seems to me that Yamaha are hoping that ignoring this problem will make it disappear.   

    3:  Where do the Yamaha keyboard stockists stand on this issue? Have they taken the time to try the button test to all their PSR-S770/S970 models, and can now say without doubt that they are selling only the fully working models?

     4:  Where is Yamaha's opposite number of Mike Martin of Casio, who would have rolled back his sleeves, come online, and sorted this problem in the first instance, rather that seeing it creep into the multiple thousand reads?

     5: This topic's heading will be familiar to all regular members by now, so anyone who wishes to avoid it knows not to click on it.

     Many thanks to our own Joe H for bearing the stress of keeping this issue going. Thanks also to  Joe W..... who runs this great Yamaha PSR Tutorial forum.

      Seems to me that the big fix for the buttons problem is a way off, (maybe even not coming at all). I have just acquired a pre-owned Yamaha PSR-E433 for the time being as another PRS-S770 costs too much money to risk getting stuck with one of the runts of the PSR-S770 litter.

     Consider this: should you try to sell your treasured PSR-S770 / 970 via a popular auction site: you might now expect to be asked:

    Are the A-J buttons of this instrument fully functioning with no issues?  

        regards, Jack

Thanks dear Joe and True effort. From my opinion , until the thing sorted our by yamaha we shouldn't close the thread.  The reason as you mentioned , the dealers intend to hide the real problem in the keyboard. my concern the dealer as well the Service guys not able to understand the issue what we are saying, its truly painful to prove them. As per your conversation with steve, we will wait for the firmware update . But anyhow we can wait for the other users also post their problems , if its case of different scenario. 

Hi Textbook

i totally agree with your view. but selling newly bought keyboards will give lose for buyers like me! 

Thanks

Regards
androidgalaxyman