Genos problems after 1.4 upgrade

[Lee Batchelor]

As a matter of history, a lot of software updates have two things in common:

The ability to revert to the previous version
Microsoft updates are obligatory. The difference in some of their operating system versions is you get to decide when to install the update. However, before the update is installed, Windows creates a Restore point so that if anything goes wrong, you can at least go back in time to a point when your computer worked normally.

Update options
Some software gives you a choice as to what components you want to install. If there is a particular feature you never use, you can simply uncheck that box.

I wonder how tough it would be for Yamaha to adopt these ideas? I think the ability to revert to 1.3 is imperative. We are all creatures of habit and if an update seriously messes with our ability to gig with the Genos, then it's plain wrong to not have the ability to revert. Living room players have the luxury of time and can ease into the new way of thinking. Serious gigging musicians have neither the time nor desire to figure out problems introduced by an update. We are too busy managing our gigs and adding new songs to be bogged down by an operating system that is sometimes counter-intuitive or removes tools we found useful before the update.

For example, I would like to add the new way the onscreen sliders work but I could care less about the categorized groups.

[Bud2]

One thing I noticed about Korg if people do find a problem after an update they are fairly quick in putting it right they don't make you wait months to put it right.
Bill

[EileenL]

Yes Bill you are right there and I am sure those people that used that function will not wait long for it to be corrected. These machines get more and more complex in there programming and re-programming so I would say be a little tolerant. We are all human and allowed to make mistakes from time to time but as long as we put things right that's fine.
  For anyone that dose not use this system for changing voices and Gigs with the keyboard your Genos will be fine with the update and you should not let people put you off doing it.

[Lee Batchelor]

For anyone that does not use this system for changing voices and Gigs with the keyboard your Genos will be fine with the update and you should not let people put you off doing it.

Agreed, Eileen. However, I would love to know the exact numbers of Genos gigging musicians versus home players. I suspect the ratio is probably 1,000:1 in favor of the home players. If I'm right or even close, then the gigging players are of no consequence to Yamaha. Questionable updates are not only a nuisance to gigging players but downright dangerous to their livelihoods.  We don't have the luxury of time to sit for hours and develop workarounds to problems brought on by updates that are counterproductive.

Ironically, the Genos is a professional level keyboard and gigging players deserve the same consideration. Even the ability to revert to the previous version would solve 99 percent of the problem. I'm certainly not going to load 1.4!

[Kaarlo von Freymann]

Hi Markus,

....For reasons best known to Yamaha, they have removed the On/Off switching of the main voice parts from the list of functions assignable to a pedal.....

You can still assign the function to an assignable button, but since these are only a few inches away from the actual dedicated Left/Right voice part buttons, it is hardly worth bothering.

It's a new 'feature', not a bug! ...... unless Yamaha see the error of their ways.  Of course if they did, it would mean admitting that they made a mistake, and Yamaha will never do that!

Regards

Ian

Dear Ian, let me say, I like no only what you say but also the way you say what you say 

Cheers

Kaarlo

PS. I can not stop admiring Eileen fo how fast she is able -and willing - to post a reply. I would need at least two paid assistanst for that.  Eileen informs us in this case they will correct heir error.  Let's hope they will repair a few other "not yet best possible" implementations also

[mikf]

Eileen - What Bill said was that Korg are good about dealing with errors quickly. I think his inference was that Yamaha are not so good and the users may wait.
Vali seems to think the eliminating of a feature was intended although not a good idea  - I disagree. As the head of a very large development function with hundreds of engineers, I saw many software releases, and the most likely scenario is that it was never planned, someone just made a mistake and no-one caught it. Involving marketing departments (which Yamaha obviously did here)  compounds the problem, because the marketing people start to drive the release deadline, so it ends up with insufficient testing.  Then the customer base become the testers. Unfortunately a common situation.
Lee - I think it may be less than 1000/1, maybe more like 100/1 or even 50/1, but still heavily weighted to the home player. But I still think that Yamaha would take problems seriously, because they don't want the perception of being second rate. I accept the nuisance value and frustration caused of some of these bugs to professional players, but it's seems a bit overkill to say that anyone's livelihood would be jeopardized. I managed to make money playing keyboards that had a tiny fraction of todays functionality. People might complain but they also adapt and work around issues.   
Mike

[Pianoman]

We are all human and allowed to make mistakes from time to time

I respectfully disagree.
Not when it involves other people's money, one is not allowed to make mistakes.
A huge amount of money I might add.

If somebody were to bump into one's keyboard during a gig, topple it to the floor,
then say "we are all human and allowed to make mistakes from time to time "
we wouldn't be so forgiving.

Best Regards.
Abby.

[mikf]

Abby
Mistakes by people are a fact of life, we can nether allow or disallow them. They are always unintended, otherwise they are not mistakes. Its understandable if people get annoyed by mistakes that have big consequences and/or were caused by gross negligence. But realistically nearly every bug or glitch in these posts are nuisance level and not huge consequences. The level of reaction I see in posts is often way out of proportion to the problem.
Mike

[tyrosaurus]

For example, I would like to add the new way the onscreen sliders work but I could care less about the categorized groups.

You can actually just activate, or 'focus' an onscreen slider without changing it's setting even in Ver 1.30!

If you touch only the numeric 'level' shown at the top of a slider, without touching the main slider area, this will select that slider without changing the level, and you will see a red box border appear around the whole slider.

You can then use the data wheel or the increment buttons to change the value, or of course your finger on the display.

This seems to apply to onscreen sliders in all Mixer, etc. displays, with the exception of the 'drawbars' in the Organ Flutes screen.

It sounds to me like all that Ver 1.40 does for this function is to extend the 'first touch' sensing area to cover anywhere on a slider. However this is welcome.

In Ver 1.30, even though the position of the onscreen virtual sliders always match the actual level of each one, it is almost impossible to touch the 'sliding' area of one without changing it's value.  As long as you touch on the slider's 'lever' on the display, any change in level will be quite small but might still be noticeable in some situations.  So being able to just 'focus' a slider on first touch without changing its level, by touching anywhere within its boundaries is a sensible approach, and avoids those with big fingers when trying to touch the small 'level' area of the slider, inadvertently touching the main area too, potentially causing a big jump in level!

It might be that Yamaha's intention from the beginning was to 'focus' a slider without changing its value on first touch of it anywhere within it's screen boundary, but for some reason, only the upper, 'level' area was used in the firmware code, rather than the whole area!  We will never know!

Before updating I'm still waiting for someone to confirm without ambiguity that Ver 1.40 genuinely improves the functioning of the actual physical sliders as claimed by some!   However to date no one seems to want to go on record to confirm this!

I can't see how it can, but if people convince me that it does, I will update, hoping that Yamaha reinstate the ability to assign On/Off switching of the main voice parts to a pedal in a future update!


Regards

Ian

[EileenL]

Yes you are right there. Some of these things are blown out of all proportion and the treads go on for ever and ever never achieving anything.

Hi Abby
   I make sure I am fully insured for any mishap to my keyboard when I take it out as I am sure most do. I also make sure that my keyboard is placed where no one can knock it over.

[travlin-easy]

When I was still a working musician/singer/entertainer I carried full insurance coverage for all my equipment, including the van I transported it with. I only collected on the van, which was broadsided on US I-95 one morning on the way to a job. Both myself and music gear were uninjured, but the van was totaled and had to be replaced, which I did the following day.

In the clubs, restaurants and bars, I always kept a good eye on the drunken audience members and tried my best to keep them and their drinks away. Most of the time I was successful, but it was always a big concern.

Accidents can and do happen, but most of the time they are preventable in one way or another. However, this often takes a lot of forethought and planning by  the entertainer.

Gary

[Pianoman]

We are straying from the topic of the OP here.

But I too am insured for damage to my equipment and also any injury to a member of staff,
the audience, and anyone else from the moment I step into a hotel or any other venue, as
long as it can be reasonably established that I am at fault.

These are 2 separate insurances that I pay.
One for my gear, and the other for members of the public.

Apart from the vehicle insurance, in case of accident or getting robbed.

In some venues I have people dancing in front of my gear, and spend a quarter of the gig
telling them to maintain a safe distance.

I would not be forgiving if a drunk audience member were to topple my keyboard.

Please read my comments above and find out why i gave this example.
It concerned the issue of the original poster.

Maybe we should return to that issue, to do justice to the OPs concerns.

Best Regards.
Abby.

I have to run now. Got to gig in 2 hours.

[panos]

Anyone experienced any problems after upgrade . . . ? 

Abby is right,
did anyone experienced any problem after the installation of the update with the song book,with voices going up or down,or any other kind of problem?

People who are gigging are hesitating to install the new version so they need a feedback before they do.

One function that was removed was the one with the pedal voice switch.

Is there any other feature that is no more working or any other problem that someone have noticed?

[Kaarlo von Freymann]

You can actually just activate, or 'focus' an onscreen slider without changing it's setting even in Ver 1.30!
.......Before updating I'm still waiting for someone to confirm without ambiguity that Ver 1.40 genuinely improves the functioning of the actual physical sliders as claimed by some!   However to date no one seems to want to go on record to confirm this!
[/b]
Regards

Ian

Dear Ian,

I do want to go on record.

The question has been "worked around" by saying  "I am very happy with how mine work now"  That's the standard answer you cannot argue with. Anybody can claim  being happy with anything.  One member already said "I have had enough"

FOR THE RECORD: Mine jump like they did before  the update.      (I do like the added features on the main screen.)

Cheers

Kaarlo

[markusthegeek]

Hi Eileen,

thanks for confirming that the issue I mentioned will be solved in a future update.

Hi Ian,

I could not find any changed to the physical sliders. At first, I read the change as a kind of soft takeover which would be easy to implement for the sliders and knobs. I.e. you first have to go to the current value before changes are happening.

Then I re-read and it was only talking about the on-screen sliders as you have explained.


gruss,
Markus

[valimaties]

You can actually just activate, or 'focus' an onscreen slider without changing it's setting even in Ver 1.30!

If you touch only the numeric 'level' shown at the top of a slider, without touching the main slider area, this will select that slider without changing the level, and you will see a red box border appear around the whole slider.

...

Do this on your gig, with 300 people in front of you, with fear that something could happening and the bass volume or anything else will increase at a maximum volume...
I tell you, it was not a NORMAL behavior of those sliders and of any control in this keyboard. Every control has to do in this way - first touch is only the focus, nothing will be changed, second one will change the value - and the value can be changed easily after first touch with data wheel!

Regards,
Vali

[PierreSW]

Genos styles I am not satisfied with, it controls the DSP in Right 1, 2 and 3 completely insane how Yamaha has built this up. When you have set the sound for Right 1, 2 and 3  you want to have what you programmed it
And not as it is now. If you change style, the DSP on all Right 1 2 3 will also change completely, Genos sounds good but it should not change my settings.
The same thing with midi files, the DSP changes if you change style.
Listen to the attached file

// Pierre

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Dromeus]

Do you have OTS Link turned on? If so, the keyboard voices incl insert effects will change, which is to be expected.
If OTS Link is turned of, Genos will NOT change INSERT DSPs when changing styles. It may change system DSPs (Reverb, Chorus) which is to be expected.
I don't see anything wrong here.

[PierreSW]

But I do. I do not have OTS Link turned on.
Tyros does not do this, there it is OK.
I'm expecting a change here from Yamaha in the next update.

// Pierre

[Dromeus]

Would you mind giving an example? Please name a Genos style, which changes insertion DSPs of R1, R2 or R3. Thank you.

[panos]

Pierre are you using a registration to move from one style to another and maybe is something there which tells the keyboard to change the dsp's of the Right hand voices?

Just a thought.
how can a style control or change the Right hand voices without pressing the OTS?
That's not suppose to happen in any model.It is weird.

[EileenL]

I have done the update and certainly don't have this problem.

[PierreSW]

Hey!
Ex.1.Started a midifil with Patsy Clines Crazy and would compare if I could find a style for it, found CountrySwingBallad which is rather like I thought.
Started playing the midi file then I just loaded the style (while playing the midi file) CountrySwingBallad, then the DSPs changed too, so it shouldn't be,
must be wrong that the styles DSP should control the midi file, so it has never been with Tyros.
Try it yourself if it does the same in your Genos, sends with the midi file, the style are available in Geno's cat. Country.
Ex.2.Load in the style South of the border9000 choose OTS 3 guitar sound, then load CountrySwingBallad.
You do not have to start the style to hear how the DSP changes just load.

Greetings Pierre

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Dromeus]

Hi Pierre

Ex1: The MIDI File sets Reverb=Hall1 and Chorus=Chorus6. Upon loading style CountrySwingBallad these settings change to RealLargeHall+ resp. Chorus3. This is the normal behaviour found in Yamaha arrangers. There was no change for the keyboard voices or any DSPs assigned to them.

Ex2: The Style South of the border9000 sets Reverb=Hall2 and Chorus=Chorus2. OTS3 sets Right1 to a WarmSolid guitar, where a Delay/Echo insertion effect is assigned. Again, upon loading style CountrySwingBallad the system effects Reverb and Chorus settings change to RealLargeHall+ resp. Chorus3. There was no change for the right voice or its assigned DSP.

As I said above upon loading a style the system effects may change. This is intended behaviour, because when you load a style you expect to hear the style as mixed by the style designer. System effects - as the name implies - do affect the keyboard voices, too. This is not a bug, rather system effects are designed to work this way. In your example RealLargeHall+ is quite different from Hall1. So there is no suprise, you should adjust the Reverb and Chorus Send Levels of the Guitar Voice. You may even change the Reverb Type, after all it's a matter of taste and the sound you're looking for.

Hope that helps.
Michael

[PierreSW]

Hey Michael!
I never thought that the DSP was so in Tyros, or am I wrong?

// Pierre

[Al Ram]

Hello Friends

To provide an update.

I have been playing the Genos for several sessions/hours (not continuously) and could not replicate the initial problems reported.  So, it may have been an 'adjustment' to the new 1.4 upgrade.   Things seem to be OK now.

I just have one question, if anyone know . . . Please see attached pic . . .

There is a 'lock' icon now on the style section . . . .  i do not know what this means . .  does anyone know ?

thanks in advance. 





[attachment deleted by admin]

[beykock]

Hi Al Ram,

Good news. 😀
Nice to hear your update 1.4 installation problems have been solved.👍

How did you manage to solve this problem ?
Might be very useful information for others who are dealing with that problem too, I guess.

Babette

[robinez]

...

I just have one question, if anyone know . . . Please see attached pic . . .

There is a 'lock' icon now on the style section . . . .  i do not know what this means . .  does anyone know ?
...

that's the tempo lock function, you can assign that function to a generic button if you want.

[Al Ram]

How did you manage to solve this problem ?

Babette

I really did not do anything.    The problem fixed itself.   I believe this was a fluke and want to think that Genos was just adjusting to the new update.   (for lack of a better explanation).

thanks

[Al Ram]

that's the tempo lock function, you can assign that function to a generic button if you want.

It makes sense.  Thanks a lot.  It is a great function that i use when trying/testing different styles without changing tempo.

Now i know that is the tempo lock.

thanks again.