New TOTL Arranger from Ketron

[Danny1972]

but it will be very hard for Ketron to convince Yamaha customers to change their mind.

Best wishes, JH

I think that would be a mistake. The only person who needs to be convinced is oneself if you want to change altogether, but personally I don't think it always works because you'll always end up missing something you were used to. The only way it could work would be if one owned multiple keyboards so that it covers all bases but people may not want to do that either. The reality is that there isn't an arranger keyboard that will cover everything perfectly and it will be down to the one that suits you the most and live with the limitations you may think it has.

I would go as far as to say that it is very unlikely (if at all) that any person on this forum would switch from Yamaha to Ketron without having any Yamaha to fall back on. I couldn't do it anyway, there are things on the Genos/SX900 that I couldn't do without.

[Jeff Hollande]

Hey Danny :

I really understand what you are saying.

In general most people ( I know ) have one keyboard only ( for many reasons  ).
All of them are Yamaha owners and were Roland and/or Technics players before.
For many reasons they are happy with their Yammi and they are
very interested in the new 2 high end arrangers of Ketron and Korg.
BTW, who is not interested in the newest arrangers ?

They all say they want to know Yamaha's answer first and finally will go for a Yamaha, I guess, if there is a need for a new arranger.

JH

[pjd]

But, like most musicians, I'll buy whatever instrument is best for me.

Amen! And I will stick with that instrument until it's "used up."

Love the one you're with -- pj   

[Sokratis1974]

Agreed, Bogdan. Actually, I finished watching the video. You can create registrations but only through the screen and in a somewhat convoluted manner, unless I missed something. The Event still looks like a "computer first and musical instrument after." That doesn't work for the serious stage player. We need access to key functions through dedicated buttons, not touch screen options and menus. We simply do not have the time to do these things any other way.

It strikes me that you talk about the lack of Event switches when many of you (like me) have Genos.
On what you wrote "That doesn't work for the serious stage player" I would like to speak to you as a Stage Player.
As I have said many times, I am a professional musician and have made a living solely from this work (music in live performances) since 1990.
That is, about 33 years, so since you bring up the subject (Stage Player) I will speak to you clearly from this side.
So, I work almost every day with Genos (in hotels and in various live performances) because I haven't had time to prepare the Event for my work yet.
So, I have worked since 2018 when I bought Genos thousands of hours on stage (as a Stage Player) so I know very well both the positives and the negatives.
So really, how can you talk about a lack of switches and excessive use of the screen in the Event when the Yamaha in the Genos does not have basic switches and also in the Genos we are forced to work too much or even more exclusively from the screen?
Shall we compare them? Because I see some myths being created around the subject.
So, we're going to play a question and answer game and I'm just going to put in real facts.

1. Styles & Voices switches.
Question: Does Genos have switches for Styles and Voices? Answer: No. Basically there are two Style and Voice switches, but the only thing the Style switch does is just open the list of styles, but selection is done exclusively, either from the screen or from the wheel, and the Voice switch only does presents us with the content with the settings of the selected sound. Nothing else.
So, in both cases the work is done exclusively from the screen.
Here, too, a particularly negative point must be noted: There are no folders in Genos User in categories such as Presets, nor in Styles, nor in Voice. The only solution is for the user to create them and of course there is no corresponding User switch.
Hmmm a lot of screen work.
Let's compare now: Question: Does Event have switches for Styles and Voice? Answer Yes, and in fact there is a separate switch for User Voice as well as there is a separate switch for User Style.
Of course, there are ready User folders with all the categories just like there are in the Presets. On the other hand, although there is a series of switches for both uses, however when we select PRESET STYLES, or PRESET VOICE, what we need to do is simply press once on the screen and select either from the left side the list of Styles , or from the right side the list of Voices, in which case the appropriate list is automatically activated on the switches, having at the same time the option to either choose a category, or by repeatedly pressing the switches, the pages of the lists are changed.

2. Fills & Breaks
Question: Does Genos have Fill switches?
Answer: No. Fills are ONLY activated by the Variation switches and only the current Fill is activated. And if I want to play for example Variation 2 but activate Fill 4 is that possible? No. Is there any alternative way to do this? No.
Question: Does Event have Fill switches? Answer: Yes. It has a Fill switch which activates the current Fill. Is there any alternative way to do this? Yes, two ways:
A) Simply by selecting the permanent icon from the right side of the screen called FILL & BREAK and immediately appear at the bottom of the screen (in icons and without blocking the rest of the screen) both the 4 Fill and the 4 Break. https://app.box.com/s/ywwltf07sp2g87xnebha58im0vgp60v0
B) By enabling AUTOFILL, it works the same way as Genos. That is, by pressing the corresponding Variation, the corresponding Fill is also activated.
So, the answer is Yes! In Event it is possible to choose a different Fill and a different Break than what we are playing, as well as having two different alternative selection modes.

3. Registration & Playlist.
Question: Does Genos have Registration switches? Answer: Yes. It has 10 different switches and two additional +- REGIST switches. BANK.
Question: When I have a full Live program that requires a lot of quick selection of Styles, Voices and many other options what can I do on a Yamaha Genos? Answer: We should create Registration Banks which will be stored in Playlists. Nice. Question: How many Playlists can I have at my disposal at a time: Answer: One. If we want a second Playlist, then we have to select it (from the screen of course) and load it. Very nice. Question: In the Playlist, what else can I save besides Registration? Answer: Nothing. Registration Bank only.
Question: How do we enter Playlist mode? Answer: From the Playlist switch. And the Registration options? After selecting the Playlist, we want to load, then the Registration Banks are selected from the 10 Registration switches.
Nice. Question: If I don't remember what each Registration Bank contains (it's impossible to remember them all) what alternative and quick solution do I have? The fastest solution is to assign to an ASSIGNABLE switch the "Regist. Bank Information" so during work when we don't remember something we should press the corresponding switch so that all the useful information appears on the screen.
Question: Does Event have Registration switches? Answer: No. It has 1 Registration switch where it enters the list of all Single Registrations.
Question: When I have a busy schedule that requires a lot of quick selections from Styles, Voices and many other options what can I do in a Ketron Event? Answer: We should create Performance Bank. What is this; It is a new Ketron platform (corresponding to the Genos Playlist) in which we can create and organize our Registrations with great ease thus creating our programs and having at our disposal 18 different large virtual Pads (versus 10 switches of Genos) on each page and of course having an unlimited number of files per Performance Bank. Nice. Question: How many Performance Banks can I have at my disposal at a time? Answer: Seven different Performance Banks. If we want to load another 7 different Performance Banks, what do we do? We load them directly from the disc since there is a direct load command (from the screen of course). Very nice. Question: In the Performance Bank what else can I save besides Registration? Answer: Both Styles and Voice.
Question: How do we enter Performance mode? Answer: From the Performance switch. The rest is done by the screen.
Nice. Question: If I don't remember what each Performance Bank contains what is my quick and alternative solution? Answer: There is no problem at all because the virtual Pads are very large and each Pad has the file name very clearly, as well as specifying whether it is Registration, Style, or Voice.
https://app.box.com/s/vg944hhyt74rzm572yaklczdex1tihlh

4. Sliders and Real Time control.
Question: If in Genos I want to control the general volume in Drums, Bass, Chord separately during the Live, is this possible? Answer: As a general tension no. What we can do is press SLIDER ASSING to toggle the Sliders mode and from there we have a Slider for each channel of the Style.
Question: If I turn one of the channels down or up while playing, will that have any effect on the balance of the Style? Answer: Yes, because the balance is also broken in the other parts of the Style, i.e., the changes we make in any channel will have an impact on all parts of the Style (variation Fill, Break, etc.).
Does this also apply to FX (Chorus, Reverb)? Yes. It will affect all parts of the Style.
Question: So, we can't have separate settings for Volume, Reverb, Chorus, Pan, etc.? Answer: Yes, it is possible, but this must be done exclusively through the Style Creator whenever this cannot be achieved during the live.
And although we of course can change something at the moment we are playing, but if we make even the slightest change in the mix of the style or any other change, then all parts of the Style are affected.
Question: Can we have a separate setting of the Insert FX in each Variation? Answer: No.
Question: If we want to lower the moment of Live, for example the Bass in all Styles, because there is a chance that we are playing in a venue with bad acoustics, so it bothers us, is this possible? Answer: No. At each Style change, the volume will return to the original mix. Question: And if we assign, for example, the Bass to a Live Control Slider? Answer: But it will work again after changing the Style the volume will return to the levels of the original mix.
Question: If at the Event I want to control the general volume in Drums, Bass, Chord separately during the Live, is this possible? Answer: Yes. We lower the general volume with separate Sliders in DRUMS/PERC, BASS, MIDI CHORDS, REAL CHORDS.
Question: If I raise or lower one of the Style channels while playing, will it affect the balance of the Style? Answer: No unless we want to. That is, if we choose Single, then any changes we make (now we play) will only affect the specific Variation, Fill, etc., while if we choose Global, then all the changes we make will affect the entire Style. The same is true for the Master FX (Reverb Chorus).
Question: Can we have a separate setting of the Insert FX in each Variation? Answer: Yes. We can have completely different setup of Insert FX in each Variation, Intro, Ending.

5. Midi Drum Mixer.
Question: Is there a Drum Mixer in Genos? Answer: Real Time control no. Only through Style Creator.
Question: So, when I'm playing in a live if it bothers me, for example the Kick, I can't turn it down while I'm playing? Answer: No.
Question: Is there a Drum Mixer at the Event? Answer: Yes. There is a separate Drum Mixer switch where we have Real Time control over: Volume, Reverb, Pan, Pitch, Velocity Compressor.
Question: So, when I'm playing live, if I'm bothered by eg the Kick, Snare, can I turn it down or raise it while I'm playing? Answer: Yes, and we can have Real Time control of each Variation completely different without affecting the mix balance of the Style in the slightest.

6. Question: If in Genos in a Live we want to play Full Pianist sound, is it possible? If so, how?
Answer: It is done if we do the following:
A) Disable the ACMP switch.
B) Deactivating the LEFT HOLD switch
C) Deactivating the LEFT switch.
Question: If we want to play Full Pianist sound at the Event in a Live, is it possible? If so, how?
Answer: It is done if we press the switch: PIANIST.

7. Question: If in Genos in a Live we want to play Manual Bass in the left hand, is it possible?
Answer: No. Or at least not in a direct way.
Question: If at the Event in a Live we want to play Manual Bass in the left hand, is it possible?
Answer: Yes, directly by simply pressing the MANUAL BASS switch. And not only that, but we can select normal chords, but the moment we want a Manual Bass to be activated (without affecting the chords) simply by having previously selected the AUTOMANUAL mode (from the screen).

8. Question: How many Voice sections (in our right hand) does the Yamaha Genos have?
Answer: A section where we can have up to three UPPER VOICES (RIGHT 1, RIGHT 2, RIGHT 3).
Question: How many LOWER (LEFT) VOICES can we have in our left hand? Answer: A Left Voice.
Question: How many Voice parts (in our right hand) does the Event have?
Answer: Two separate Voice sections where we can have up to three UPPER VOICEs each section (although here there is a somewhat different structure, but the explanation is not here).
Question: How many LOWER (LEFT) VOICES can we have in the Event in our left hand? Answer: Three different Left (LOWER) Voices with a separate Slider each.

9. Question: Are there ONE TOUCH SETTING switches on the Yamaha Genos? Answer: Yes, and I think they are also in a better position than any other Arranger.
Question: Are there ONE TOUCH SETTING switches in the Event? Answer: No. This feature is only available from the screen. It has two different modes though here I have to say that I like Genos' mode much better.

10. Question: If in Genos we want to have direct access to a Live some of our favorite User or Preset Styles or Voices is it possible? Answer: Yes, it is possible if we save them in Favorites. Question: In Favorites we have the possibility to have Voices or Styles per category (Piano, Strings, Organ - Pop, Rock, Latin etc.). Answer: No. Question: Is there any other alternative way? Answer: Yes, there are two ways: A) By creating user folders where we will place the sounds or styles by category and of course the selection is made exclusively from the screen.
B) Via Registration but when we are constantly forced to change Registration Bank in a Live, then things get very complicated, and it is far from direct.
Question: If at the Event we want to have direct access to a Live some of our favorite User or Preset Styles or Voices, is it possible? Answer: Yes, we just store them in the appropriate User folder, and of course in both cases the selection can also be made from the switches. Question: Is there any other alternative way? Answer: Yes, through Performance. We select any of the seven immediately available banks and copy what we want to each one.
For example, in Performance Bank 3 I can have all my favorite Styles, (Preset or User), while in Performance Bank 4 I can have all my favorite Voices (Preset or User).



And finally, some quick questions and answers.
1) Is there a switch for DRAWBAR ORGAN on Genos?
No.
Is there a switch for DRAWBAR ORGAN in Event?
Yes. And independent switch and Slider and works Real Time in parallel or separately with the two sections of Voices.
2) Is there a DRUMS KIT switch on the Genos?
No, the Drum kit selection is made exclusively from the screen, after first deactivating the switches: ACMP, LEFT HOLD, LEFT
Is there a DRUMS KIT switch in Event?
Yes. You press the switch and directly the Drum Kit is available on the entire keyboard.
3) Is there an independent SPLIT switch on the Genos?
No. The settings are made exclusively through the screen and are not particularly clear.
Is there an independent SPLIT switch in Event?
Yes. We simply press and hold the Split switch and then the current range appears on the screen (e.g. C2), so we just press any note on the keyboard, so the screen automatically shows us which note we have selected, so we have immediately changed the range relationship between the right and left-handed.
4) Is there a DIRECT ACCESS switch on Genos?
Yes. It's one of the smartest implementations I've come across in recent years.
Is there a DIRECT ACCESS switch in the Event?
No. Unfortunately, no.
But I must stop somewhere here.
I must have tired you, but there are a few things that need to be cleared up.
I too believe there is no (best arranger keyboard), but there is (best arranger keyboard for me).
As you may have noticed all I have done is simply refer to true facts and nothing else.
Also, I'll say it again: Event doesn't only have Audio styles, it also has many Midi Styles which actually play very well.
Of course, the focus has been on Audio Styles, but at the same time it has all those tools that are required, and certainly much more options than even all the Yamaha Arrangers when it comes to Midi Styles production. I typically mention the production of separate Maj, Min versions in Intro, Ending, Variation either directly on the instrument or through some daw using Marker which is almost impossible on any Yamaha.
Finally, I have to say the following:
The Yamaha Genos is my first (professional) Yamaha Arranger I've ever owned. I have worked (live) with models from all companies: Korg i5, i30, Pa80, Pa1x, Pa800, Pa3x, Roland E-35, EA7, G-70, Ketron SD1, Audya.
I never said Genos is a bad instrument.
If it was, I would just sell it and not play live with it yet. It's an AWESOME Arranger, but what I've found is this:
As a Stage Player which is my job, I find that if we haven't prepared our Genos in advance, to an absolute extent, and if we haven't foreseen even the last detail for a live, then it is very difficult in live conditions and also very unwieldy when you have to switch frequently in a demanding schedule. Why.
Because contrary to what you said, many things are missing which would help us in the immediacy of a Live.
I understood that I must have saved my entire program in Registration and Playlist because otherwise it is particularly difficult to access (real time) in Live conditions.
I know many of you may disagree with me. But look at what I wrote to you and those of you whose main job is music (Stage Player) then consider whether what I say corresponds to reality or not.
I apologize for my huge post and possibly for my bad English.
Thank you!

[ton37]

Dear @Sokratis: It is not easy to discuss another brand on a Yamaha forum. But the way you do that deserves respect. As always as independent as possible and based on facts. Thank you for your detailed explanation.

[Jeff Hollande]

Hi Guys :

Thanks to Sokratis' great and detailed feedback, it is hard to deny the Event seems to be a great high end arranger, do you agree ?
Probably a very challenging competitor for Korg's PA5X and Yamaha's Genos successor, right ?

As soon as the Event is available in the music shops ( expected stock April 2023 ? ), my dealer will invite me.
It is absolutely my serious intention to test the Event thoroughly.
The more I know about the Event the more excited I am.
But again ... I am going to miss multipads ...

I am supposed to replace my Tyros4 by the end of this year, early 2024 but it is not easy for me to say goodbye to my beloved Tyros4. I am still in doubt.
A great arranger to create my backing tracks though.

Sorry, but I am an old fashioned musician : generally speaking, all my music instruments are meant to keep as long as possible, despite all the new software and technical improvements.
E.g. my left handed guitars are retained for life.   
On the other hand, my apartment is too small to add another arranger. I have to sell my Ty4 if I really want to replace it.   

BTW, I really admire and appreciate Sokratis' endless patience to take time to answer all our questions and to respond respectfully and friendly to our criticism.


Best regards, JH

[billtracy]

So, we're going to play a question and answer game and I'm just going to put in real facts.

Good writeup thanks.

[Jeff Hollande]

Hi :

Apparently some European dealers ( in Germany e.g. ) received a showroom Event arranger.
It would be interesting to know the endusers' first impressions, IMO. 

My dealer ( The Netherlands ) cannot confirm if he will receive his first Event shipment in April 2023.
Nothing has been ( officially ) announced by Ketron yet, he said. 

Regards, JH

[kiplis]

https://www.thomann.de/gb/ketron_event.htm?shp=eyJjb3VudHJ5IjoiZ2IiLCJjdXJyZW5jeSI6NCwibGFuZ3VhZ2UiOjJ9&reload=1

-Kiplis-

[mikf]

Jeff
The difference in feel, sound of instruments like guitars, violins, saxes, are typically contained in the design and construction.  So people tend to keep several, even collect them. The difference in electronic keyboards is mainly advance and improvement in the technology. So like cars, we typically get rid of the old one when getting a new one.
Mike

[kiplis]

In stock @ Bonners

https://www.bonnersmusic.co.uk/products/ketron-event-arranger-keyboard

-Kiplis-

[Jeff Hollande]

Apparently the UK dealers are the first people who have received their Event's March 2023 shipment.

I am looking forward to reading the endusers' impressions.
JH

[tyrosrick]

The price at Bonners is about the same as a Genos, so pricewise what is the advantage of this over a Yamaha?

[BogdanH]

The price at Bonners is about the same as a Genos, so pricewise what is the advantage of this over a Yamaha?

I think that's something everyone should answer for himself. Genos, Event and Pa5X are all top of the line keyboards and there's no worse or better: it's what suits you better.

Bogdan

[Jeff Hollande]

The price at Bonners is about the same as a Genos, so pricewise what is the advantage of this over a Yamaha?

Most Yamaha customers ( 99% ? ) prefer to wait for the Genos' successor, I guess.
It might be available in November/December 2023, I hope.
I assume the new Yamaha high end arranger would cost : present Genos' price + approx. 10% ? 

I have no idea ... only time will tell. 

JH

[Lee Batchelor]

I won't be able to assess the Event, due to lack of dealers in Canada. An online dealer is totally useless, unless he or she is willing to pay all expenses to send and return an Event to my home for assessment. That is highly unlikely. The PA5X will likely be in our stores.

No matter what, I'll wait to see what Yamaha brings to the table as an answer to these two fine machines .

[Jeff Hollande]

Hi Lee :

You are a professional musician.
Making music is your daily income. 
The service ( 24/7 ) given by your dealer is very important for you.

Buying on line might be no option for you, IMHO.

Best regards, JH

[AndrewKeyz]

The price at Bonners is about the same as a Genos, so pricewise what is the advantage of this over a Yamaha?

I'm willing to bet not much.

But some people will be impressed by the demos and live sounding music, there is no denying.
In many living rooms / side rooms I bet these things gather dust despite which model people buy, even a Genos.

The lack of direct controls I think is a huge problem for the average performer who is going to be more consistent in his/her playing.

What you don't know won't hurt/harm you. If you haven't had a Genos or top of the range SX keyboard, it will be fine probably.

If you are experienced with Yamaha's using the direct style controls, registration buttons and like expansion options, the Event and even Pa5X is going to be a step back I would have thought.
At least this seemed to be my experience anyway.

[Danny1972]

I have purchased an Event and it's arriving Monday

[kiplis]

Nice, I am considering the same...

-Kiplis-

[BogdanH]

I have purchased an Event and it's arriving Monday

Congrats Danny! So far I'm quite impressed by Event and I really hope it won't disappoint you 

Bogdan

[Jeff Hollande]

Hey Danny :

CONGRATULATIONS with your New Event. 

I would be very happy and grateful if you let this Forum know, in a couple of weeks e.g., what your first impressions are.
Thank you in advance and ... enjoy your new arranger !

JH

[Danny1972]

Thank you Guys, appreciate the warm comments

Yes of course I will give feedback on the keyboard. I will stress that this is not replacing my Genos or any of the other current TOTL's that I have although I will offload some of my older keyboards to make up for it.

I think the fact that Bonners are stocking it was what tipped it in it's favour because I initially had no intention of getting one as traditionally the Ketron's have always been hard to get hold of in the UK, eg, when I bought the SD7 and SD60 I had to wait many weeks before it arrived in the UK from Italy as the only way to get one was from the Ketron UK distributor. So its refreshing that I can order a Ketron to arrive a couple of days later, that's more like it! I think it would pair up very well with the Genos.

[Danny1972]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkCy6k0Sx3M

[rikkisbears]

Congratulations Danny I'm sure you'll love it

[Sokratis1974]

Thank you Guys, appreciate the warm comments

Yes of course I will give feedback on the keyboard. I will stress that this is not replacing my Genos or any of the other current TOTL's that I have although I will offload some of my older keyboards to make up for it.

I think the fact that Bonners are stocking it was what tipped it in it's favour because I initially had no intention of getting one as traditionally the Ketron's have always been hard to get hold of in the UK, eg, when I bought the SD7 and SD60 I had to wait many weeks before it arrived in the UK from Italy as the only way to get one was from the Ketron UK distributor. So its refreshing that I can order a Ketron to arrive a couple of days later, that's more like it! I think it would pair up very well with the Genos.

My congratulations Danny. If you need any help, don't hesitate to contact me.

[Jeff Hollande]

Dear Sokratis :

Herewith I would like to thank you for your kind intention to help ALL people who are going to buy an Event.
That is absolutely wonderful and very encouraging for all new owners.

IMHO It might be a very good idea to start a seperate, new Forum : EVENT SUPPORT.


Take care, JH

[Sokratis1974]

Dear Sokratis :

Herewith I would like to thank you for your kind intention to help ALL people who are going to buy an Event.
That is absolutely wonderful and very encouraging for all new owners.

IMHO It might be a very good idea to start a seperate, new Forum : EVENT SUPPORT.


Take care, JH

Thank you so much Jeff. I find it difficult to create a new forum for many reasons. The main reason is that it requires too much time which my professional and personal obligations do not allow.
However, I am actively involved in two Ketron groups on Facebook and mainly in this group https://www.facebook.com/groups/KetronSD90 the admins have designated me as (Group Expert).

[Jeff Hollande]

Hey Sokratis :

Thanks for your feedback and the facebook link.
Very good news for all new Event customers, I guess.

Best regards, JH

[keynote]

I have purchased an Event and it's arriving Monday

Congratulations, Danny. You must have purchased the one and only Ketron Event in the entire U.K. I looked on the Bonners Music website, and it currently says they are awaiting stock. In fact, everywhere you look all over the internet, it says basically the same thing. Ketron America doesn't even sell Ketron products through its website and doesn't even list the Event except for a small blurb on the main page. Frank in Connecticut, USA @ AudioProCT https://audioproct.com is a Ketron dealer, but he only has 1 reserve spot left, so apparently he will get a few in stock but not until around April 15-21. Also, Ketron America lists a few dealer affiliations, including Kaye's Music Scene in Reseda (LA), CA. Unfortunately, Mr. Kaye closed up his store back in 2021 yet Ketron USA still lists it as a dealer affiliate. Talk about falling through the cracks.  Even other dealer affiliations in other states in the US don't sell Ketron products that I'm aware of, but they will supposedly service them? You need to be able to purchase the Event before you can have it serviced. Business 101. 💡

Anyway, let us know how you like your Event once you get it. Particularly the reports about the User Interface that supposedly lacks important navigational features and arranger functions that aren't accessible except through menu deep-diving, plus the absence of a physical button to turn on accompaniment which should be a no-brainer but is missing on the Event. PS: I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade, but if the 'problems' have easy workarounds or are solvable through an OS update, I might be interested in the Event again as a viable alternative.

All the best, Mike