Main difference between SX600 vs. SX900 (technical)

[DerekA]

The frustrating part (to many of us) is that the arrangers use the AWM2 tone generation, which is the same as Montage and MODX (though they also add the FM-X engine). But the restriction is that the panel on the arrangers doesn't give access to all the underlying parameters or all the elements that make up a sound.

If only Yamaha would add some pages on the touch-screen UI to be able to dive into the structure of the voice, many people would be happy. They used to do this on earlier Tyros models. But I guess they got feedback that nobody used that feature so they pushed it out into the YEM "experience".

[Jeff Hollande]

I wonder what will happen to YEM in the near future if Genos and SX
would be replaced by successors ?

JH

[mikf]

You are right Jeff. Personally, I have always had synthesizers: Roland D-20; Motif XS6; MODX7; Kronos 61. And recording songs in these instruments has
The statement that an arranger is not a "real instrument"... nothing more than an opinion from someone. And as far as opinions go, the world is full of them :O)

In the hands of a talented musician the arranger can be  brilliant instrument. But the arranger is specifically designed to be easy play and easy record. That means most of us who are a lot less talented can't wait to hoist our musical performances on the world in a way that wasn't normally possible with traditional instruments. Since these performances are typically not all that good the reputation of the instrument itself can become tarnished.
Mike

[Jeff Hollande]

Mike  :

Can we say the arranger keyboard is the best choice for the home player : nice sound, plug-and-play, a great instrument for beginners, older people and even for professionals  ?

Best regards, JH

[mikf]

Jeff
I don't think there is a universal "best" choice. What I would say is that the arranger is a good choice for the adult who wants to learn to play keyboards later in life, or returns having been to lessons as a child, but not kept it up. It's also a good choice for the professional who wants to entertain as a OMB.
But we all have different needs and budgets. I love my CVP, but it still comes second to my grand piano. Fortunately, I am able to indulge myself in both, but if push came to shove, its the grand piano that would stay.
Mike

[andyg]

If only Yamaha would add some pages on the touch-screen UI to be able to dive into the structure of the voice, many people would be happy. They used to do this on earlier Tyros models. But I guess they got feedback that nobody used that feature so they pushed it out into the YEM "experience".

Pages 48 to 51 in the Genos Reference Manual details all the sound editing that can be done. Although the button-pushing on the Tyros/PSR-S models is replaced by working with the touch screen, it looks like all the same tweaks are available for you to edit and save User Voices. Is that what you thought was missing in the Genos?

[DerekA]

No Andy, I'm talking about being able to edit every parameter on all 8 elements. For example altering filter envelopes, or LFO waveforms, or LFO assignments, or activie key ranges, etc. AWM2 can do all this, we just can't access them via the panel as you can on MODX.

The voice set pages only offer simple edits that are applied to all elements.

[vadesriux]

I think you are missing the point here. A synth is made for tweaking sounds deeply. An arranger is made to play together with accompaniment and rhythms. Completely different goal. Completely different worlds. Simplicity vs complexity and depth of use.

Although, with style creator, you can really dive deep into the process of buiding a full style with rhythms.  But not tweaking a single sound to its core.

Yamaha will never mix both these worlds in a single instrument. Never did so actually.

[mikf]

While not disagreeing with your basic point about mixing two worlds, it is interesting that Yamaha have already provided a lot of overlap on TOTL arrangers into the world of synths and workstation capabilities - but stop well short of total duplication. It's puzzling to work out where they decide to draw the line, and probably it's a bit of a moving target.
But I imagine it's their judgement of what drives the sales of each instrument. So if, for example, they believe only a tiny percentage of arranger buyers would use deep editing of voices, then any added cost to provide it would have little benefit to arranger sales, while possibly cutting into sales of synths. But we can only guess.
Going from my own experience of technology and marketing, these kind of decisions probably also provoke 'quite heated' debate inside Yamaha. As a past insider in the keyboard development world, Andy G might throw more light on how these decisions get made.
Mike

[pjd]

I had a conversation with a few of the Yamaha synth folks about the arranger synthesis engine vs. the synthesizer synthesis engine.

At the bottom -- the hardware layer -- the hardware is the same. Both product lines use the SWP70 tone generator IC, same DACs, etc.

The layer(s) above the hardware give each product line its unique engine. The arrangers adhere to the Yamaha XG synthesis and effect architecture, which Yamaha specified in some detail (1990s). Arranger voice edit features are the high level "knobs" in an XG voice.

The synthesizers have different software layers and are not XG. Yamaha publish the synth parameter guide which effectively lays out the  synthesis engine for the synthesizer product line. The synthesizers expose far more parameters for tweaking than XG. The synth engine is closer to the native hardware, AKA "closer to the metal". 

Aside from exposed, editable parameters, articulation is another area of major difference. Yamaha Expanded Articulation (XA) is closer to the native hardware than S.Art. (S.Art2 is a whole other matter.) S.Art requires software intervention.

YEM gives a glimpse of what lies below the XG layer. If you really want to see what's there, open a UVF file in a text editor and browse. Quite a bit is not exposed in YEM. Nothing of S.Art (or S.Art2) is exposed/editable in YEM.

I could imagine Yamaha drawing the line at XG for simplicity's sake as far as arrangers are concerned. (For all the usual reasons.)

All the best -- pj

[Jeff Hollande]

Thank you very much for this detailed Yamaha technical lesson, PJ.
🤓
You are showing us the real differences between a synth and an arranger. Two different worlds. Indeed.

Some of your explanation is too complicated for me since I am not a technician. I am sorry.🤭.

But in general I can follow your words and I do understand now, thanks to you, why I prefer an arranger. 🌞

Thanks again and best regards, JH

[ACSACS]

Just thought I'd add my own view on the synth/arranger comparrison.

I played synths for years in bands mostly Yamaha Motif series. There's really not much difference in the sounds but as others said the editing potential.

In short arrangers swap the deep editing for other functions like auto accompaniment. The only other main difference was the Motif was obviously built to withstand the rigours of touring. It was made of metal, with a premium keyboard action. Maybe the top end Genos arranger is the same though, I've only had the PSR series ( S910, SX600).

Enjoying my SX600 now, I think it still has plenty of editing capacity for most things.

[Jeff Hollande]

Hi ACSACS :

Thank you for your interesting comments.

Maybe a silly question then ... why are Yamaha not building a Genos Synth-Arranger ?
Or ... might nobody be interested in this so called " NEW " instrument ?

Cheers, JH

[vadesriux]

One thing some guys do is to stack a MODX or a KORG i3 on top of an arranger like SX900 / GENOS. That would be a perfect combination for anyone wanting both worlds. But as we know that cames at a price since you'll have to buy 2 keyboards.

By the way, GENOS has seen its price raised this week to a staggering 3750 € (!!). I know its a terrific instrument (I had one), but this price is... Wow.

[Jeff Hollande]

I have 2 arrangers on one stand. That's more than enough for me.
No need and no place for " a different world ".🤗

Best wishes, JH

[DerekA]

By the way, GENOS has seen its price raised this week to a staggering 3750 € (!!). I know its a terrific instrument (I had one), but this price is... Wow.

It's even higher in the UK. Genos + speakers is now about £1000 more than when I bought mine! For once I got it right and bought when it was at its lowest price.

[ACSACS]

Hi ACSACS :

Thank you for your interesting comments.

Maybe a silly question then ... why are Yamaha not building a Genos Synth-Arranger ?
Or ... might nobody be interested in this so called " NEW " instrument ?

Cheers, JH

I suppose on one level the idea is to have two seperate products that do each thing well, rather than a combo one that does it all together.

But also maybe they are only cousins rather than brothers. Perhaps the arrangers descend from the line of organs, whereas the synths descend from Yamaha's analog synthesisers from the 70s and 80s. However there is a lot of crossover anyway. I'm quite liking the editing capabilites of my arranger actually. It can still be quite flexible.

[mikf]

Maybe a silly question then ... why are Yamaha not building a Genos Synth-Arranger ?
Or ... might nobody be interested in this so called " NEW " instrument ?

It's not nobody, because some would definitely love it. But Yamaha is a global business, not a little garage operation like MOOG was when it started.  So it's about about how many. In general the band player has no need for auto accompaniment, and the typical arranger player does not delve too much into the music production, sound manipulation world. So that probably doesn't create critical drive in the market for what would be a quite expensive, and complex instrument.
Mike

[hans1966]

One thing some guys do is to stack a MODX or a KORG i3 on top of an arranger like SX900 / GENOS. That would be a perfect combination for anyone wanting both worlds. But as we know that cames at a price since you'll have to buy 2 keyboards.

By the way, GENOS has seen its price raised this week to a staggering 3750 € (!!). I know its a terrific instrument (I had one), but this price is... Wow.

Hi Vadesriux, in my case, I still enjoy my SX900, and in addition I have added a totally different second keyboard which is the Kross 2, small compared to Kronos, MDOX, but good enough to make a beautiful combination with my SX900.

Cheers

Hans

[Jeff Hollande]

Very interesting, Hans.

Would be very grateful to know what you are doing with your Korg synth in combination with your SX900.

Thank you for your reply.
Kind regards, JH

[vadesriux]

Hi Hans.

Great combination for sure. Korg always had great sounds on their instruments, especially the pads and more.

Yesterday I was trying, on my SX900, to alter the decay of a particular sound only to find out that... you cant. You can change the attack and release but not the decay if you, for instance, want the sound to fade away when you press a key. That would be really easy for Yamaha to add: control over ADSR. Super simple but you dont get that on the 600/700/900.

Wonder if inside YEM you can alter the decay of a sound...

[janamdo]

Hi,

Who knows with the coming successors of SX700/SX900, more sound building can be done.
I am afraid that more sound controlling for the arrangers will be on easy level (limited use) staying
The ideal combination for a arranger  : taylor your sound as you want and use accopaniment styles
For sound sculpturing you do need a synthesizer

[DerekA]

Wonder if inside YEM you can alter the decay of a sound...

Yes. YEM gives you full control over all 8 elements.

It's just a pain since you need to install the modified voice as a part of a pack in order to use it. And SX models can't reuse the inbuilt waveforms, unlike Tyros and Genos.

[Jeff Hollande]

Hi Janamdo  :

It is hard to believe the SX successors will be available before 2024-2025 IF ... they ever come.🤭

Even another update will not be expected, I guess ...

But ... miracles do still exist ... you never know.😛

Best wishes, JH

[janamdo]

Hi Jeff,

I am curious when the new Yamaha arrangers are coming, and if they surpass the old ones?

Cheers
Jan

[hans1966]

Hi Jeff, thanks for your interest.

In fact I am working on an instrumental song where both keyboards have their leading role.

Cheers

Hans

[hans1966]

Hi Hans.

Great combination for sure. Korg always had great sounds on their instruments, especially the pads and more.

Yesterday I was trying, on my SX900, to alter the decay of a particular sound only to find out that... you cant. You can change the attack and release but not the decay if you, for instance, want the sound to fade away when you press a key. That would be really easy for Yamaha to add: control over ADSR. Super simple but you dont get that on the 600/700/900.

Wonder if inside YEM you can alter the decay of a sound...

Hello Vadesriux, thank you very much for your kind words.

You are correct in what you say regarding the fading or degradation of the sound in the sx900, since it does not have enough deep editing tools to achieve that, much less warp it until it is completely changed into another.

Even so, it has a wide range of very beautiful sounds with which you can work and create different environments, which make the listener's imagination fly.

I do not have YEM installed at the moment to test if the degradation of the sound through this software is feasible, due to an update that I made from Windows 8.1 to Windows 10 of 32, which is not compatible with the latest YEM update.

I love the sounds of the Kross 2, especially the pads and effects that wisely combined with the SX900 create a very pleasant atmosphere.

Cheers

Hans

[DerekA]

Even so, it has a wide range of very beautiful sounds with which you can work and create different environments, which make the listener's imagination fly.

This is true, we should not lose sight of this.

[blackpool]

Out of interest re 'partnering' I have a korg i3 with an SX and they work really well.
As I have mentioned before ....an SX700 plus the Korg can be bought for less than the cost of a 900 ...depends what your needs are.

by the way...I recon a good 'rule of thumb' within a range, is to see whats available on the used market ...ironically there are SEVERAL used 600's on eBay just now yet NOT ONE 700/900 ...so to me thats a good indicator of the spec/price diff.

I still believe the 700 is the best value arranger Yamaha has ever produced to date ( I am so surprised of the little cost difference to a 600 )
I say that as an X Genos owner. which I found over sized for the limited length space i have...moving back down to a 900 then now to a 700 which has all the spec I need, used with the Korg for over a year and am really happy as i like many of the features and sounds of both makers, so it's nice to have both.

Keith

[Jeff Hollande]

I can see the Korg synth is very popular for you, Guys.
It looks to be a great combi with the SX900.
What am I missing  ?🤪

JH
A happy SX900 player