s970 & s770 erratic behaviour / faulty [A] to [J] buttons - is yours affected?

[szwarc]

Let us not close the subject.
Mine keyboard is now in the service and penie won't be able to fix it.
The service claims, that is everything ok !
Services don't have no information to this subject.
Yamaha is not giving any solutions.
If I could now choose I wouldn't only buy PSR-S 970. I wil buy  Korg Pa3X

[billmc]

I've found another fault with my S770, unfortunately. I'm learning to play, "Waiting for a Girl Like You" by Foreigner. I'm playing it in the key of D-flat. There are times in the song when I am transitioning from Fm to Bbm and when I do, the rhythm momentarily stops, as if I had the rhythm section on "sync only." It should not do this. The rhythm should always play unless I push the Stop or Ending buttons. It is as if the keyboard does quite know how to go to the Bbm chord. So it momentarily stops and then starts again. Frustrating.

I'm going to try a few other songs, but I'm growing more and more concerned about the "overhaul" of the S-series and what Yamaha may have done or not done to it.

[Joe H]

billmc,

Is it just doing that with this one style, or is it happening with a song file?

Joe H

[Joe H]

szwarc,

We have already been told the problem is being looked at in Japan.  Until Yamaha determines a fix... there is no point in taking your keyboard in for repair because Yamaha Service Centers will not find a repair bulletin on how to fix the button issue. 

Re-installing the firmware and doing a system reset seems to have fixed mine by the way.   

Joe H

[szwarc]

I think, around Yamaha isn't able to solve a problem. And isn't upset with us completely.
I regret, around I bought this instrument.
I intend to put around in Poland, that Yamaha isn't caring for its customers and is selling efective instruments.
How my PSR-S 970 will only come back from the service - I will sell it and I will buy KORG Pa3X

[Joe H]

szwarc,

Joe H wrote: "Re-installing the firmware and doing a system reset seems to have fixed mine by the way".

I still think you should give this a try.... what do you have to loose?



Joe H

[szwarc]

Not yet I have an instrument - farther is in the service. They will be replacing the scratched casing which they destroyed - it is supposed to last till 6 weeks!! To 27 April!!
Yamaha is a company which is bashing its customers on the ass

[EileenL]

Would have to strongly disagree with you. It is not Yamaha themselves but the people involved with the servicing. Here in the UK we have excellent Technical support and repair service. We also don't appear to have the button problems either. I have spoken to a couple of dealers who have not heard of it.

[szwarc]

"I have spoken to a couple of dealers who have not heard of it. " it's funny - hahahhaha - for liar - they couldn't hear or I don't want to hear. The problem on the 100% is and bulletins are saying, around dumb these are a feature rather than a defect. They aren't upset with customers are only lying.

[tbeltrans]

Though I have not (yet) experienced this button problem, reading this thread it is sounding as if it might be a hardware AND firmware issue.  Parts are made specifications regarding measured tolerances.  That means that there will be at least some variance among the same parts as to how they function.  With buttons, there is a certain amount of "bounce" when they are pressed and before they settle.  Usually, there is a "debouncing" circuit associated with the input of the button signal to the circuit board, along with some simple debouncing code in the firmware to determine if the button press that was detected is real.  This involves detecting the initial press signal and then waiting to see if any others follow.  There is timing involved in how long to wait for any following press signals, and that timing is crucial to triggering properly in response to the button press.  It may be that the timing of this algorithm is not sufficient to account for variances in the parts themselves.  It also might be that, since this is a relatively low cost product (in the grand scheme of manufactured things of this nature), there may be no debouncing circuitry, so that the firmware alone must do it all.  In that case, the timing of the debounce algorithm is even more critical.

Yamaha's choices seem to be to either use more expensive buttons (i.e. less "slop" in the trigger signal of a press) and/or rework the debounce algorithm in the firmware to accommodate the variances among the buttons.  If they purchased a large amount of these buttons (i.e. if they are not using just in time manufacturing procurement), then they either would need to negotiate a return of these to their vendor or "eat" the problem cost and either continue to use them as is in their products or replace them with higher quality buttons. 

In either case, I believe the firmware debounce algorithm will most likely need to be adjusted.  That would certainly be the most cost effective and easiest solution all around.

Tony

[textbook]

Would have to strongly disagree with you. It is not Yamaha themselves but the people involved with the servicing. Here in the UK we have excellent Technical support and repair service. We also don't appear to have the button problems either. I have spoken to a couple of dealers who have not heard of it.

The  reality is one only finds out how good any service department is when you actually need to send your instrument back to them for repair.   Yamaha Support staff wherever they are located represent Yamaha themselves, which is why they are very cautous in not admitting there's a fault whenever one speaks to them on the phone.   The tech support gentlemen I spoke to 3 different times at Yamaha UK since last October all said they are aware of this erratic key behaviour on some 770/970 keyboards,  and said you simply need to press the buttons on the outside (high point), and they work fine...in the meantime they assured me they were looking into the issue.

We most definitely do have this button issue on some keyboards in the UK,   as you know yourself Eileen both I and Happy Jack who returned his 770 plus my neighbour are obviously in the UK, or at least we were the last time I looked,    plus a very large retailer in York, and you can guess who I mean has had 5 customers report the problem and I was told that quite some time ago by one of their staff,  plus another dealer in Burton on Trent has also had complaints from a few customers regarding the buttons and has returned 3 boards to Yamaha for this problem.
I'm happy to name those 2 large dealers if you wish.   Plus there is one local dealer who is aware of the issue because I demonstrated it to him on 2 keyboards they had in their showroom,  so to say no UK dealers are aware is incorrect.

Also the original poster who started this thread is in the UK and had 2 boards changed for this issue,   just because you don't have the issue as I stated previously to you Eileen, does not mean it does not exist, as some boards are definitely affected, even here in the UK, I can only assume the number of boards affected are quite small...I honestly don't know.

My own 970 like Joe.H's 970 is currently not doing it quite so often at present,  does that mean all of a sudden the problem has disappeared entirely for everyone else that have the issue ?   of course not.   At the moment I can live with it, in fact I suspect this will remain a minor flaw on this 970 keyboard until such time I get rid of it, but it's not impacting my use or enjoyment of my 970 very much at the moment so like Joe it's something I'm tolerating and hoping that Yamaha at some point will acknowledge and put right in due course....fingers xxx.  A view shared by others with the issue I suspect.  In conclusion I like my 970,  I think it's excellent other that this odd A-E/F/J button issue where it exits back to the main menu, albeit in my case not so frequently as it once did thanks to constructive help from other users like Joe.H who have experienced the issue themselves, and have shared information, so a big thanks to all those members who have shared information in this thread.

Best wishes.... Cameron

[EileenL]

Hi Cameron,
   I did not say all dealers I said a couple I have spoken to. I had one of the first keyboards in the country and updated the OS as soon as it came out and after much button pushing which I use whilst playing live and editing Styles etc can honestly say I have never had a problem. I do use centre or high part of the button and it always works. Of course if you accidentally press twice it will go back to the home page as this is a short cut on most Yamaha keyboards. I hope something gets sorted for you all.

[Happy Jack]

The  reality is one only finds out how good any service department is when you actually need to send your instrument back to them for repair.   Yamaha Support staff wherever they are located represent Yamaha themselves, which is why they are very cautous in not admitting there's a fault whenever one speaks to them on the phone.   The tech support gentlemen I spoke to 3 different times at Yamaha UK since last October all said they are aware of this erratic key behaviour on some 770/970 keyboards,  and said you simply need to press the buttons on the outside (high point), and they work fine...in the meantime they assured me they were looking into the issue.

We most definitely do have this button issue on some keyboards in the UK, and to state we don't is silly,  as you know yourself Eileen both I and Happy Jack who returned his 770 plus my neighbour are obviously in the UK, or at least we were the last time I looked,    plus a very large retailer in York, and you can guess who I mean has had 5 customers report the problem and I was told that quite some time ago by one of their staff,  plus another dealer in Burton on Trent has also had complaints from a few customers regarding the buttons and has returned 3 boards to Yamaha for this problem.
I'm happy to name those 2 large dealers if you wish.   Plus there is one local dealer in Worcester who is aware of the issue because I demonstrated it to him on 2 keyboards they had in their showroom,  so to say no UK dealers are aware is not true.

Also the original poster who started this thread is in the UK and had 2 boards changed for this issue, as did I,  just because you don't have the issue as I stated previously to you Eileen, does not mean it does not exist.      I personally have no friends or connections at Yamaha whatsoever,  therefore my opinion on this subject of some faulty buttons on 770 and 970 models is totally unbiased.   I  have no personal loyalties to Yamaha other than I have liked their instruments for years, same equally applies to Casio and Korg.

My own 970 like Joe.H's 970 is currently not doing it quite so often at present,  does that mean all of a sudden the problem has disappeared entirely for everyone else that have the issue ?   of course not.   At the moment I can live with it, in fact I suspect this will remain a minor flaw on this 970 keyboard until such time I get rid of it, but it's not impacting my use or enjoyment of my 970 very much at the moment so like Joe it's something I'm tolerating and hoping that Yamaha at some point will acknowledge and put right in due course....fingers xxx.  A view shared by others with the issue I suspect.  In conclusion I like my 970, but it's not 100% perfect it does have the odd A-E/F/J button issue where it exits back to the main menu, albeit currently not so frequently as it once did thanks to constructive help from other users like Joe.H who have experienced the issue themselves, and have shared information, so a big thanks to all those members who have shared information in this thread.

Best wishes.... Cameron

  Thank-you for your summary. Some eloquent contributions to this thread of late.

       I recommend wearing a crash helmet when banging your head against this brick wall of an issue:  I mean that some folk here will NEVER admit that Yamaha is other than practically perfect in every way.   

    Might even nominate them for a minor part in a remake of the Truman Show movie (1998) 

    Hoped this button blight problem would have been sorted by now.   

     There are other Arranger brands to choose from, of course, for the near-equivalent price of a PSR-S770:  Roland, Korg, and now Casio.  But would prefer to stay with the Yamaha after getting comfortable with this way of working.

    So Yamaha, get it sorted.

    cheers to all
    Jack

       

   

   

   

   

[Joe H]

It is a bit frustrating to have to endure this button issue for some folks here who maybe did not get any relief from a re-install of the firmware or a System Reset (or maybe they never bothered to try those things... I don't know)

But calling Yamaha Dealers and Service technicians 'liars" is a bit over the top and serves no constructive purpose. The truth is they don't know anything because Yamaha hasn't issued a service bulletin. 

I have been told twice now and reassured twice now that Yamaha engineers in Japan are aware of the problem and looking at it.  I was also told these things take time to get it right.

Think about it... what would YOU do  if you have built thousands of keyboards and some (maybe just a few) had a problem? How would you go about it? You would have to find out how many, where they were made, who supplied the switches or circuit boards, not to mention why does reinstalling the firmware help, or doing a System reset help?  And maybe this doesn't work for everyone (does anyone know the answer to that?)

They can't just "wing their way through this situation".  They have to find some real answers... then they can act.

Just my 2 cents worth.



Joe H

[Roger Brenizer]

Hi Joe,

I wholeheartedly agree with you in your assessment of this situation.

But calling Yamaha Dealers and Service technicians 'liars" is a bit over the top and serves no constructive purpose. The truth is they don't know anything because Yamaha hasn't issued a service bulletin.

Everyone knows that I don't own this keyboard, but I have been following this thread with great interest.  Calling someone a "liar" is never a good thing.  Stating it verbally is one thing, but putting it in writing is certainly not well thought out from a legal standpoint.  I would suggest that everyone follows Joe's lead and just wait for Yamaha to respond to this situation in due time.  And by all means, please tone the language down and just state your issue without making accusations that you can't prove.

[textbook]

I've decided to treat this automatic exiting to the main screen even when pressed just once as a special Yamaha bonus feature,  my own 970 is working well and have accepted this issue will likely remain on it until I dispose of it.   I assume Joe and Roger's comments are likely referring to the post made by szwarc.  If it was something in my own post, then I apologise.
Nonetheless,  I've decided in the interest of maintaining good harmony on this excellent forum this is my LAST post in this thread. 
I hope you guys with this Yamaha button issue/feature get it sorted eventually..   

I take this opportunity to wish everyone on the forum all the very best wishes. 
As Joe recently stated himself,  it's time for me also to get back to playing more.    I don't have enough hours in the day as it is, hence why I'm still working at 4.45am, and indeed it's not uncommon for me to have the odd all night sessions Maybe the wife's right I must be crazy...lol.  The 970 is still a excellent keyboard even with this little issue, but hopefully at some point in the future I look forward to reading that Yamaha have come up with some sort of a fix,  fingers xxx anyway.

Eileen:
My apologies for the mis-understanding, as you did indeed state you had spoken to a couple of dealers only.   It's obvious that many dealers, and likely some other owners too I suspect are not aware of the issue, as it's so obscure, and varies a lot even between afflicted boards.  AIS previously, if I press on the high point of the button my 970 is perfect, yet that doesn't seem to make much difference on my neighbours 770... which suffers very badly with this button issue...very strange.

Best wishes.... Cameron

[Joe H]

Cameron,

Yes.. I was referring to szwarc's comment.

You my friend... are an asset to this Forum and a positive contributor to this tread.  So don't go too far away. 



Joe H

[Roger Brenizer]

Hi Cameron,

Yes, I too was referring to Szwarc's comment in my post.  You and I have been friends for too long to have issues with one another.

I definitely share in Joe's opinion of you and your contributions here.  Please don't wander far, as your well thought out input is sorely needed in this continuing saga, as well in many other areas of this wonderful forum.

Have a great day, Cameron, and please say hi to Ann for me.  Just say; The crazy guy from across the pond said hello to you.  I'm positive she will know who you mean.  LOL!!!

[szwarc]

My service in Poland (M. Ostrowski SP. J. al. Armii Krajowej 5, 50-541 Wrocław tel. +48 71 79 74 605 email: serwis@muzyczny.pl) says that the button problem doesent exist, that is a feature not a defect. I send them detailed description and recorded film, I showed them this subject on the forum.

They sey that everything is all right.

They destroyed my instrument, they scratched the casing.





Now i must wait for a 7 weeks that they will replace the casing.

The instrument (button problem) won't be fixed.

I bought the new instrument, if has a defect (button problem), should be repaired or they should replace the instrument. A guarantee consists in it.

If Yamaha is selling defected instruments - now Yamaha should be pay for it.
What concerns me it, that now they have a problem ?!

I want to have a truly efficient instrument for which I paid.


Meanwhile service in Poland is not caring about the customer. They are saying, around these are a feature rather than a defect.

So i say that they are liers !


Never again I will buy Yamaha. And my PSR-S970 I will sell right away as soon as comes back from the service.

For everyone in POLAND I will tell , that they never to buy instruments of the company Yamaha because this company isn't caring for its customers.

[billmc]

Joe, I spoke with a Yamaha support representative about my own S770, especially the rhythm problem. It seemed to do it at random and I couldn't ever find a particular chord transition that made the beat stop every time. Intermittents are always frustrating! But I did do a soft reset on the instrument (holding down top key while turning on) and the rhythm was fine after that (during 6 hours of play). The representative seemed to think that the MIDI Map (whatever that is, ha ha) was not set correctly in my S770 and that, therefore, it occasionally wasn't sure what to do with the chords I was pressing. Resetting the instrument, obviously, reset it back to factory conditions and this, perhaps, solved the problem. But I don't know for sure because it was an intermittent.

The representative didn't know any more about the button issue than what you have already shared. I know you are, for all intents and purposes, an expert on these keyboards, but I just don't see how reinstalling the firmware (which is a series of 0's and 1's) multiple times could fix this problem. I would sooner suspect that continuous operating of these buttons causes them to "contact" or "seat" better. But that is just my opinion.

In the end, I decided to return the keyboard, mainly because I have no idea if or how long it will take for Yamaha to address the button issue. Others may live with it. That is each person's choice. But I didn't want a $1300 instrument with a problem that the manufacturer knows about but has no resolution for. Yes, I realize this may take time. But I also am aware that EVERY manufacturer wants to build their products as inexpensively as they can to have the most profit that they can. My S770 was Made in China. Remember when they came from Japan?

[szwarc]

Anybody have a contact (e-mail) to President and Representative Director or main world Yamaha contact.
I would like to send him my own message and tell him about - how service in Poland works.

[Joe H]

biilmc,

Thanks for sharing your experience.

You wrote: "I would sooner suspect that continuous operating of these buttons causes them to "contact" or "seat" better"

In my case, after doing a System Reset the improvement was instantaneous, as was with my brother who also bought an S970 and whos keyboard serial number is one value higher than mine (his came off the assembly line right behind mine).

As I have already stated (at least a couple of times) I'm inclined to think there is a problem with the firmware installer program or a bug in the OS installer.  If these software actions (reset and firmware install) are having a positive affect on the button operation then I believe there is a software fix.

BTW... there is NO more (physical) play in the [A] - [J] buttons than any other buttons on the Panel.  At least 3 people have now posted suggesting the problem can be corrected with timing code.  I suspect they are right.

Joe H

[oldfarm42]

Anybody have a contact (e-mail) to President and Representative Director or main world Yamaha contact.
I would like to send him my own message and tell him about - how service in Poland works.

You can contact him here: http://emailtheboss.org/executives/takuya-nakata-president-and-representative-director-yamaha-corporation/

[Happy Jack]

You can contact him here: http://emailtheboss.org/executives/takuya-nakata-president-and-representative-director-yamaha-corporation/

   Thank-you, oldfarm42, for your informative post and for lending a hand to a fellow member.

    My approach is likewise:   Better to aim high and let the goodness trickle down, eh. 

   cheers, Jack

[Happy Jack]

    Hey all happy Yammy Lovers,

    Are you staying up late / rising early to view the Comet?
 
    No, not the Comet Hale–Bopp;  that won't be back in our solar system until around year 4385.

    But stick around here on PSRTUTORIAL and be sure to mark this astronomical event.

   See bad button Comet:
Yamma-Badda-Button-Bopp streak past 10, 000 hits!

and still going ... 

and going...

and going...

[szwarc]

Maybe Yamaha will be working for 2 years on with problem of buttons, for as far as customers guarantees will end - hahahahaha

[textbook]

The firmware update v1.05 released today  does appear to help with this button issue,  at least that's what my initial tests would suggest on 2 keyboards I've installed it on,  my own 970 and a friends 770.

However, it has not cured my neighbours 770 completely,  but where previously we were lucky to press those buttons 3 or 4 times on his 770 before it exited,  we found after updating the firmware it was possible to press them 30 or more times before it did it,   so a good improvement as his 770 suffered really badly with this A-E/F-J button issue.

Tests I've done on my own 970 would suggest it's pretty much been eradicated,  in fact during lots of button bashing I've given it since installing today's new 1.05 update it only exited once, and that was when pressing the low part of the button and TBH I can live with that.  If I press it normally it seems fine, it never exits,   it certainly seems better than it was previously. 

Cameron

[tbeltrans]

The firmware update v1.05 released today  does appear to help with this button issue,  at least that's what my initial tests would suggest on 2 keyboards I've installed it on,  my own 970 and a friends 770.

However, it has not cured my neighbours 770 completely,  but where previously we were lucky to press those buttons 3 or 4 times on his 770 before it exited,  we found after updating the firmware it was possible to press them 30 or more times before it did it,   so a good improvement as his 770 suffered really badly with this A-E/F-J button issue.

Tests I've done on my own 970 would suggest it's pretty much been eradicated,  in fact during lots of button bashing I've given it since installing today's new 1.05 update it only exited once, and that was when pressing the low part of the button and TBH I can live with that.  If I press it normally it seems fine, it never exits,   it certainly seems better than it was previously. 

Cameron

That is good to hear (read).  I provided a description of this type of problem, based on my years in engineering and dealing with button press detection issues.  It may well be that Yamaha has done what they can without actually replacing the buttons with better quality.  If those who have been seeing this problem can live with that, then maybe they can now enjoy their keyboards.  Maybe others will weigh in as they do the upgrade.  It sounds promising.

Tony

[Joe H]

Cameron,

Question: On the S770 that suffered serious buttons problems, did you by any chance try the System Reset thing by holding down the right-most white key while powering on the keyboard?  This helped with my board before the v1.05 update. 

Like you, it appears the update fixed my button problem completely.  I'm going to test a couple more times before I give my official feedback to Steve Deming at Yamaha.   In his email to me today he states he sees a noticeable improvement with his own testing, and asked for my feedback. 



Joe H

[textbook]

Yes I did try resetting using the rightmost key Joe,  in fact I tried this on his 770 a couple weeks ago just to see if it might help, but sadly made little difference to his.  His 770 is actually much worse than the 1st one I returned and had changed,  he's not overly concerned at all however.   The fact this firmware version seems to have noticeably improved it is at least something,  but in view of how frequent his 770 exited previously leads me to think that perhaps his may likely  have a hardware issue,  but like I said,  he's not bothered at all, at least it's a lot better than it was.

As for my own,  it's early days but it seems to be working perfectly.   The thing is, I could actually see more of a improvement on his 770 than I could on my own 970, simply because his was so bad in the first place,  while my own was very minor with just the odd exit back out which had almost remedied itself anyway by doing the firmware install and resetting it.

Best wishes...Cameron