System exclusive messages are neither sent nor received on Genos 2 and on Cubase

[UbiUanKenobi]

Good evening, everyone. Do you know how to transmit sy*** from Genos 2 to Cubase 10 and viceversa?

I have set the parameters in the midi menu "System Exclusive Message2 on the Genos 2 "TRANSMIT ON" and "RECEIVE ON" but when I record a track neither Control changes, Bank selected nor Controller .

Can anyone help me understand why? Thank you all from the bottom of my heart.

[pjd]

May be a terminology issue here. I suggest reviewing the kinds of MIDI messages and how they are enabled and/or filtered by the sender and receiver.

System Exclusive messages are one type of MIDI message. They begin with hexadecimal F0 and end with hex F7. The supported Genos Sy*** messages are listed in the Genos Data List PDF.

Controller messages are a separate type of MIDI message. They begin with a so-called status byte, hexadecimal Bx, where x is the MIDI channel (numeric 0 to 15 which fits into 4 bits). The status byte is followed by a second byte which specifies the controller. Finally, the third byte is the control value. These messages, collectively, are called "continuous controller" messages or CC.

CC#0 is Bank Select MSB and CC#32 is Bank Select LSB. Program Change is a separate message type and has its own status byte, etc.

If you are not receiving CC messages, either they are not being transmitted or they are being filtered by the receiver. (This can be said of Sy*** issues, too.) Make sure Cubase is not filtering out CC messages (or Sy***) messages.

Hope these suggestions help -- pj

[Michael Trigoboff]

I just did a test, and conclusively proved that when you record MIDI on a Genos2, you get different Sy*** events vs recording that same song from the Genos2 to Cubase 13 Pro.

Below, there's a link to a zip file containing a Cubase project I used for this experiment. If you expand it you will find a MIDI Files subfolder containing the two MIDI files. You can examine them with any MIDI utility and you will see that the Sy*** messages are very different.

There is also chord data in the file recorded by the Genos2 that is not present in the file recorded by Cubase.

I checked, and there was no Cubase MIDI filtering or transformation enabled when I recorded the MIDI file in Cubase. On the Genos2, Transmit was turned On for both System Exclusive Message and Chord System Exclusive Message.

Apparently, when the Genos2 records MIDI to itself, it doesn't record exactly the same MIDI that it sends to a computer on the other end of a USB MIDI connection. I don't know of any way around this.

download zip file

[Michael Trigoboff]

Forgot to say: a number of things are different, not just Sy***.

[UbiUanKenobi]

Good morning guys and thanks for being interested in my question!!! So I try to be clearer. When I record a new track (e.g. some piano measures) from Genos 2 to Cubase , doing parameter editing in the Cubase track should show up all the sy*** messages containing Program Changes, Controllers, System Sy*** starting at F0,or from 43 ending at F7. Instead I can't find anything other than the notes entered. I am attaching some pictures of what I am claiming. I hope I can understand why nothing works....


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[UbiUanKenobi]

These photos are the setup on the Genos 2



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[UbiUanKenobi]

obviously by recording a midi song directly to Genos 2 and editing it with Cubase you can find all the parameters.

[overover]

obviously by recording a midi song directly to Genos 2 and editing it with Cubase you can find all the parameters.

Hi UbiUanKenobi,

Yes, that is basically the easiest and best option. Make a MIDI recording (MIDI Quick Recording) directly on the Genos and copy this MIDI file to a USB stick. Then connect the stick to the computer and import the MIDI file into Cubase. This means you have all MIDI parameters, including e.g. Control Change, Program Change and Sy***, that belong to the original recording in Cubase and you can edit them there.

Another option would be to record the MIDI data directly into Cubase, but use Registrations (at least one). First start recording in Cubase, and THEN load the registration, which makes all panel settings (e.g. the keyboard voice settings). I recommend using the standard MIDI template "All Parts" on the Genos (or at least starting from this template when making your own adjustments).

The internal Genos2 Parts are then sent as follows (all via MIDI Port 1):

Right1 > Ch 1
Right2 > Ch 2
Right3 > Ch 3
Left > Ch 4
Multi Pads Parts > Ch 5 - 8
Style Parts > Ch 9 - 16

I assume that you have connected the Genos2 to the computer via USB cable and installed the Yamaha Steinberg USB Driver. In Cubase, use "Digital Keyboard" as the MIDI Input device (corresponds to Port 1 / Transmit on Genos2).

By the way, USB-MIDI cannot be transmitted via Port 2, i.e. there is NO "Digital Keyboard 2" device in the USB driver that you could select as a MIDI Input device in Cubase.


As MIDI Output device in Cubase (for all MIDI tracks) I recommend "Digital Keyboard 1" (corresponds to Port 1 / Receive on Genos2). This means that the 16 Song Parts of the Genos2 are controlled from Cubase, i.e. it sounds exactly as if the finished MIDI file were later played back directly on the Genos2.

If for some reason you want to control the Keyboard Parts of the Genos2 directly from Cubase, use "Digital Keyboard 2" as the MIDI Output device in Cubase (corresponds to Port 2 / Receive on Genos2). However, I generally recommend "Digital Keyboard 1".


P.S.
Please note that some Effect Sy*** are MIDI channel specific. This means that if want to use these Sy*** for a track with a different MIDI channel in Cubase, the Sy*** would no longer work as desired (or would have to be changed manually to work with the correct channel).


Hope this helps!

Best regards,
Chris

[pjd]

Please read my last message about MIDI message types. They will be handled differently in Cubase.

Controller messages and program change messages are per-channel. They are channel specific and will be recorded into the track which is associated with the MIDI record channel.

Sy*** messages are in their own class. Cubase puts Sy*** messages into a separate Sy*** track.

Please! Stop lumping controller/program change messages into the Sy*** category. You will not sort out your problem unless you better understand the types of MIDI messages and how DAWs and instruments handle the separate categories.

-- pj

P.S. Chris's comment about effect-related Sy*** messages may mislead you. The MIDI channel is deeply embedded in the Sy*** body and is not meaningful to Cubase; it is ignored like any other binary in a Sy*** message body.

[pjd]

I think Cubase is filtering out controller messages. Please look at the box labelled "Controller" in the Cubase MIDI filter preferences. Those events are being filtered out. Per the Cubase manual:

"Controller

Allows you to prevent certain MIDI controller types from being recorded or thruput.

To filter out a controller type, select it from the list at the top of the section and click Add. It will appear in the list below.

To remove a controller type from the list (allow it to be recorded and thruput), select it in the lower list and click Remove."

So, you are filtering out the specified controller types in the box. Try sending Modulation (CC#1) -- I'll bet it records modulation events.

-- pj

[pjd]

Apparently, when the Genos2 records MIDI to itself, it doesn't record exactly the same MIDI that it sends to a computer on the other end of a USB MIDI connection. I don't know of any way around this.

Yes. Genos/PSR MIDI record is a magical, mystical place where unicorns run free.  You can record all sorts of things including Yamaha MIDI meta-events which are not transmitted over MIDI. MIDI meta-events are sequencer-only message types.

One such meta-message is the Voice Data message which sets up RIGHT1, RIGHT2, ...

Yamaha is Earth 3 -- pj

[UbiUanKenobi]

Hi guys!!! I thank everyone as always you are very kind. Ok I got it. Again thank you all. You guys are wonderful.

[overover]

Hi guys!!! I thank everyone as always you are very kind. Ok I got it. Again thank you all. You guys are wonderful.

My pleasure, UbiUanKenobi!

Thanks for your kind feedback.


Best regards,
Chris

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Recording in cubase directly from Genos involves using track 1 for system information from looking at Tiho video..
Right 1 from channel 2 and so on.(Regarding getting Sys Ex information on the spare track Channel 1 is a puzzle for me)
Also for each track you record now in Cubase 13 in inspector there is a letter P  which means project filtering and that should now be checked for each track. In Cubase 12 you had to do it another way.
This is where i am at at the moment and nearly grasping it.
I successfully done multitrack live recording in one go, so all tracks display, but if i imported it back into Genos it does not sound the same.
So now i will try the leave track 1 for information as channel 1 carries the info and see what happens. (not much happened. Need help there now).).
As far as using Genos as a controller for Cubase i think that involves mapping and i have not conquered that yet.
I have had a go and touched a sliders on Genos and it shows in the mapping part in Cubase.
I am just concentrating on sliders to control the volume in the Cubase mixer at the moment.
I get two or three showing when i touch the Genos sliders, but things do not go right after that. So, I am at a dead end with that at the moment. I am wondering if i have to change things in the Genos Live Control. I have to go slow as It takes a little bit of at a time and a few bungle's  in the hope of getting a result.
I have written back to Tiho and hopefully he can put me in the right direction as he has done this successfully.
Clever guy from Bosnia.
It would be great if Yamaha made these scripts, as they say you can fully integrate Genos 2 and Cubase 13 but they never explain the things that we want. Anyone on arguing , why do you just not sit and play. I do practice every day , but going deeper is fun and keeps the noddle in prime condition. "Where did i put my keys"!!!

So, to sum up everything at the moment.
I can record all tracks at once into Cubase and play 100%
If i save the project and reopen after changing style to see if everything will be the same, it plays on the style that was last selected.
Obviously the sys Ex information is not being recorded with the track.
If i remember the style, all is ok again.
Up to now i can make a live track in Cubase 13 and turn to wave file and add tracks after. No problem. It is just the reopen of project.
It is what Tiho does to get the information recorded into track on channel 1 is the key.
It seems this is the same sort of problem getting Genos sliders to work or mirroring in Cubase.

All the Best
John


Ps i am trying to explain in my way as it is a nasty one to get your head around

[bluali]

Good evening, everyone. Do you know how to transmit sy*** from Genos 2 to Cubase 10 and viceversa?

I have set the parameters in the midi menu "System Exclusive Message2 on the Genos 2 "TRANSMIT ON" and "RECEIVE ON" but when I record a track neither Control changes, Bank selected nor Controller .

Can anyone help me understand why? Thank you all from the bottom of my heart.

I have exactly the same problem. did you find any solution to record from Genos 2 the MSB, LSB and PC data into Cubase 13?

[Michael Trigoboff]

I have exactly the same problem. did you find any solution to record from Genos 2 the MSB, LSB and PC data into Cubase 13?

Why not record MIDI on the G2, transfer that file to your computer via USB stick, and then import that MIDI file into Cubase? That way, you're sure to get everything.

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi
You can multi record into Cubase easily, but that is it. You can edit and turn to wave files. After save and close down or things change on reopening.
if you export a mid file out of Cubase from a Genos 2 recording back into the Genos, things sound like an army of drunken musicians on a Tequila Sunrise.
As Mike say's the foolproof way is to record into the Genos and then export to cubase.
It would be great to be recording into Cubase as you can see everything and do edits any time that you want to.
On Youtube there is a guy called Tiho and he can do everything and it it is possible to control the Genos from Cubase and vice versa.
He has the knowledge but does not tell us how he does it. Only shows us the basics.
I have tried making a template and it works for recording Genos 2 into Cubase. After that is where it gets complicated.
We might get a wizard on this forum to give us an Idiots Guide to The Universe. You never know.
Pink Floyd got pigs to fly but they still had to secure them to Battersea Powerstion


Ps I managed to start a script on Cubase for Genos 2 and got the faders in cubase moving, but when i choose one fader and touch a slider on the Genos it moves up to three faders at a time and i cannot figure it out. I have even looked at the Genos Live control, but i always find a dead end and confusion. I have managed to move the mixer sliders on the genos 2 from Cubase. As you know the sliders do not move , just the lights. I just wanted to use the mixer sliders in Cubase to control the volumes to start with and failed!!!
That is as far as i have got and now given up. As for CC controllers, it is a minefield of confusion.
I have been trying to use logic(brain) to get all sends and returns matching.
I think that something in Live Control has to be right and in midi setup the controllers have to be set in a certain way. I have been going back and forth but nothing seems to work only a couple of hours of head scratching.
I do thing that a mathmatician would have trouble in taming the Genos.

If you have a controller keyboard, say , like the Arturia Mk3 49 keyboard it would be easy to set up controllers as it does not have all the Styles , registrations etc that the Genos has.There are are more avenues to go down.
The Arturia Mk3 would be great for Vst only or an extension to the Genos.
I would think that using something like the Arturia controller and Genos styles would be an idea
Record the style track in Genos, export, edit, turn to wave and then go each track for VST.
Using Midi from the Genos combined with Vst sounds like a great idea if you want to.