Genos2 vs Korg Pa5X

[BogdanH]

I don't see it was mentioned in this thread, but there's one thing I see as quite important: Genos doesn't have balanced audio connections (according to manual), while Pa5X has balanced outputs and input (even old Pa4X has balanced outputs).

Balanced connections exist in audio/music industry for decades and is not even considered as a feature anymore: nowadays every 120€/pair monitor speaker and every 120€ mixer (audio interface) has balanced connections.

Some might say "I don't need that"... well, we don't need that until we do need that!

Bogdan

[DaPaleRider]

I don't see it was mentioned in this thread, but there's one thing I see as quite important: Genos doesn't have balanced audio connections (according to manual), while Pa5X has balanced outputs and input (even old Pa4X has balanced outputs).

Balanced connections exist in audio/music industry for decades and is not even considered as a feature anymore: nowadays every 120€/pair monitor speaker and every 120€ mixer (audio interface) has balanced connections.

Some might say "I don't need that"... well, we don't need that until we do need that!

Bogdan

That is the difference between an Arranger Workstation (Genos) and a Professional Arranger Workstation (Pa5X)

[mamero]

That is the difference between an Arranger Workstation (Genos) and a Professional Arranger Workstation (Pa5X)

The main outs really should have been balanced on the Genos 2; agreed. However, to imply balanced outputs is ubiquitous in pro gear and that Genos 2 is not a pro arranger is a stretch. There is a lot of modern "pro" gear (keyboards, synths, workstations, drum machines etc) which still rely on unbalanced outputs (unfortunately) both live and in the studio. And, there is a lot of highly desirable "vintage" gear that people still use in a modern "pro" setting with minimal issue. I will need to run output cables about 35 feet (10+ meters) to my mixer. That's a long way for unbalanced cables. I don't own the G2 or PA5X yet (getting very close to a decision) but, if I do choose Genos 2 over the PA5X, unbalanced outs are a concern. Worst case scenario a stereo DI can be used to solve noise/level issues albeit at the additional cost of a DI box. As such, while balanced outs are expected at this price point, it is low on the list of considerations.  There are far higher priorities to weigh when comparing flagship arrangers.

[DaPaleRider]

It is one of the many features that make the Korg a pro. I own the Genos2 it is compared with the Pa5X not a professional arranger. It is missing a lot of features in my opinion. Hopefully Yamaha will release a major update to get close to the Korg.

[mamero]

It is one of the many features that make the Korg a pro. I own the Genos2 it is compared with the Pa5X not a professional arranger. It is missing a lot of features in my opinion. Hopefully Yamaha will release a major update to get close to the Korg.

A Genos 2 update is very welcomed (unlock voice editing please!). But, updates are unlikely to "fix" hardware design such as outputs. Who knows though, maybe the output hardware uses balanced circuity and this is something that could be unlocked in a firmware update. That seems unlikely though. Curious, has anyone had the chance to look at the service manual for the Genos 2? Sometimes hardware outputs are not specified as balanced but when you look at schematics/board layout you will see TRS jacks actually used.

[DaPaleRider]

I hope so too.
The genos bears the name of flagship but is not. And certainly not for the price. If there is no good update with many new features that you would expect from a flagship with this price, then I think this will be my last Yamaha. Here in this thread you can read what the other brands can deliver and what the Genos should have. No matter how good the sounds and styles may be. When you visit IdeaScale where you can send you request for new features you can see how many features are missing in this product. Come on Yamaha, please make this arranger the best!

[BogdanH]

I would just like to point out that balanced/unbalanced connection is not only about the length of cables that we use. The need for balanced connections depends mainly on how (electrically) noisy the environment is. That is, by using unbalanced connection, it can easily happen that we catch a "humm" at less than 2m distance (and the longer the distance, the bigger the risk is).
At home, we can usually avoid that by carefully placing the cables (away from main power cables). But if we use many devices on smaller area (additional keyboard + two monitor speakers + subwoofer +mixer + laptop + ...), then it can become problematic. Solution is simple and costs nothing: balanced connections.

@mamero
For balanced connection, a balanced audio circuit is required at outputs/inputs. Balanced circuit is not necessary more expensive than normal (unbalanced) circuit -it's just different engineering solution. Anyway, if Genos would have it, then I'm sure it would be mentioned in manual.

Bogdan

[mamero]

I would just like to point out that balanced/unbalanced connection is not only about the length of cables that we use.

Good point. 10 feet unbalanced could be more noisy than 50 feet depending on what's near the cables and RF interference.

[DaPaleRider]

I have decided to exchange my Genos 2 for a Pa5X because it has so many more options that I increasingly find the Genos 2 a simple arranger with basic settings. After watching the tutorial videos from Korg, I can name so much that I am currently missing in the Genos 2

I would like to thank everyone for all the input and help I have received. I will remain a member of this forum, I still have two Yamaha devices

[DrakeM]

Sounds like somebody really needs to clean up and/ or organize their workstation area. Problem solved, pretty simple fix. 

[ton37]

I have decided to exchange my Genos 2 for a Pa5X because it has so many more options that I increasingly find the Genos 2 a simple arranger with basic settings. After watching the tutorial videos from Korg, I can name so much that I am currently missing in the Genos 2

I would like to thank everyone for all the input and help I have received. I will remain a member of this forum, I still have two Yamaha devices

Great that we have choices, good luck wirh that KB. Making music is the joy we share,  the instrument is what we choose to get that joy.

[Gunnar Jonny]

I have decided to exchange my Genos 2 for a Pa5X because it has so many more options that I increasingly find the Genos 2 a simple arranger with basic settings. After watching the tutorial videos from Korg, I can name so much that I am currently missing in the Genos 2

Hi.
I have a lot of understanding for the choice you make. Although there are many similarities and both are TOTL Arranger Keyboards, the Pa5X is quite different from the Genos2.
If you disregard how different they are built and look, and that Korg's OS is new and completely changed from e.g. Pa4X and far more close to what we see at Genos, the quality of the keys and keybeds is the first thing that is really noticeable physically.

I have dug a little into the money bin and invested in both. I have chosen to place them at a 90 degree angle to each other so that I can turn from one to the other. The strange thing is that I sit down and play on the Pa5 more often than the Genos2. It may be because of the interest of the news, but Pa5 sounds different too.
I haven't dived that deep into all the possibilities yet, and I still have a lot to explore and learn when it comes to Genos2.

If I had to choose between these two at this time, I'm actually not sure which I would or should choose......
It is possible that the huge range of Yamaha styles would influence the choice, but it is growing in the Korg format as well. Among other things, I see that Sound Wonderland now has Korg styles in its plans as well.
I wish you the best of luck with your choice!

[DaPaleRider]

Thank you very much all.

A friend of mine said to wait a little longer and suggested using his Korg for a while to really determine whether I still want to switch. That's a smart comment from him. I will adopt that advice and compare and experience both instruments thoroughly

[mamero]

I have decided to exchange my Genos 2 for a Pa5X because it has so many more options that I increasingly find the Genos 2 a simple arranger with basic settings. After watching the tutorial videos from Korg, I can name so much that I am currently missing in the Genos 2

There is no right or wrong answer here for everyone. In fact, it seems there is no right or wrong answer even for one individual. It is not an easy choice at all. When you look at various forums and comments of YouTube videos it is common to find people exchanging one arranger for the other; both directions. Often the reasons for switching are similar (or identical). Further, the people exchanging often have similar backgrounds. This explains why myself and many others getting in to the arranger market are having such a hard time choosing. I'm not in a position (financially, space, and time) to buy both a Genos 2 and PA5X 76. I must choose one! If you have other pro gear and experience it may make sense to go with the deeper PA5X because it is a good match. However, this might be the very reason NOT to go PA5X; to get something different than what you have or do. This is the dilemma. This is the rub. Usually choosing a product is pretty cut and dry after this much time and research. This time it certainly is not. YAMAHA and KORG are NOT helping move the choice forward either. I had hoped at NAMM this last weekend YAMAHA or KORG would announce a major firmware update that would definitively push the choice in one clear direction. Alas, that did not happen and we are still here weighing the options.

[Gunnar Jonny]

A friend of mine said to wait a little longer and suggested using his Korg for a while to really determine whether I still want to switch.

Great advice, really, and also keep in mind there is rumors about a big OS update that will add missing features, fixes and more.
We'll never know, but here will probably be some news from Yamaha as well, so it may be even harder to choose.......... 

[DaPaleRider]

Great advice, really, and also keep in mind there is rumors about a big OS update that will add missing features, fixes and more.
We'll never know, but here will probably be some news from Yamaha as well, so it may be even harder to choose.......... 

Big update for Yamaha you mean? It would be a shame if I changed arranger and then an update was released that would solve my wishes and objections 

[pedro_pedroc]

If it comes to get  'what is the best' there is 1 (only one) outcome to judge: the quality of the sound of your song! How to get that is a complex process with all kinds of variables and reading your workflow with several digital instruments of YOUR liking. In the end your ears and feeling will tell you if you are most satisfied with the result and have really enjoyed the process. That's what making music gives you, not having a Genos2 or PAX5 or Ketron.

I definitely agree with you, Tom.
Most users don't use all features and quality the keyboards have to offer... comparing default things with different users perceptions is not a good way to start.
With some techniques and (a lot of) time, it's possible to make sx700 sounds close to genos... sometimes you can not distinguish which is which only listening... to see what I'm talking, go to my website (link below my name), select a random style page, and listen to the demos. There is the same demo recorded with genos, sx900, and sx700 for every style (hard work). Take a listen to the audio demos. Sometimes you can't feel much difference... but again, it's not the default sound... they have a lot of work and time on them. And every music perception is individual and unique. Sometimes my costumers said they prefer the sx700 style rather than the sx900...

Regards from Brazil.
Pedro Eleutério

[mamero]

Which do you think will have the better resale value if you buy now and decide in a year you made the wrong choice and want to switch?

[mamero]

In North America the street price of Genos 2 is priced just above (relatively) the PA5X 76. This almost certainly was done for strategic reasons by Yamaha. Yamaha is attempting to differentiate the G2 from Pa5X and position above Korg. The higher price psychologically says "This is the better product! Look! It's more expensive so it must be supperior!" Launching the G2 at a price above the PA5X also signals to Korg that Yamaha is not interested in starting a price war with Korg; at least not yet. In reality, both arrangers are extremely pricey for what they really offer. If both dropped by $1000 they are still really expensive for what they offer. It doesn't take much though to sway customer decision. If Yamaha dropped MRSP by $500 (positioned the G2 slightly below PA5X 76) in combination with a solid firmware update with new features (voice editing!!) this would likely push the value for many customers well in to Yamaha's court. Conversely, KORG could do similar. However, around the time Genos 2 was announced in November Korg actually increased the price of PA5X, not down. I'm really not getting KORG's business strategy here at all. The way I see it, from a business point a view, there is a lot of potential for Yamaha to come out as the long-term winner if Korg's past PA5X business strategy (or lack there of) is an indicator.

[cyber swine]

If people are thinking Korg and Yamaha arrangers are too expensive they are not looking at prices for TOTL digital pianos (or other instruments like Roland accordions especially).  Check out Nord prices on their new boards!  Save money and buy one of these TOTL arrangers....

[mamero]

I tried a Genos 2 again today. It has really grown on me and the initial luster of the PA5X is fading. G2 has an immediacy and fun factor which is realy appealing. In less than 5 minutes I found myself navigating around and effortless jamming to styles exactly in ways I hoped a flagship arranger would permit and inspire. Fun, inspiration, and immediacy are the three core "must haves" for me in arranger. If I must spend time engineering I may as well just go to my main studio and work there as I always have. This defeats the purpose of an arranger for me. When I initially compared the Genos 1 with the PA5X nearly a year ago I really didn't care for the Genos 1 at all. I concluded at that time I would proceed with a PA5X once the firmware bugs were ironed out. That took forever for Korg to do and then G2 came along. There is something about the Genos 2 which is difficult to put your finger that feels like an arrival. It is natural and intuitive whereas the Korg feels like it requires unnecessary additional work.

Despite the positive impression of Genos 2 there was a downer for me. I greatly missed a fully editable synth engine; something the PA5X has. Yamaha if you are listening PLEASE give Genos 2 users a fully editable/programmable synth engine. This is expected in a flagship arranger! Genos 2 has the "Style Creator" function. Genos 2 must also have a "Voice Creator" function. It is a must. At minimum fully unlock the FM engine.

[mamero]

Does Genos 2 come with a sustain pedal? If not, should users buy an FC3A or FC4A?

[Christophermoment]

Does Genos 2 come with a sustain pedal? If not, should users buy an FC3A or FC4A?

FC4A.

The FC3A supports half-pedaling.

[mamero]

FC3A.

The FC4A supports half-pedaling.

This advise may be backwards. According to the Yamaha links below FC3A supports half-pedaling whereas FC4A does not specify either way.  Users need a pedal that does NOT support half-pedaling for Genos 2, is that the takeaway? So, users should purchase the FC4A as a compatible optional pedal, correct?

https://usa.yamaha.com/products/music_production/accessories/fc3a/index.html
https://usa.yamaha.com/products/music_production/accessories/fc4a/index.html

[Christophermoment]

This advise may be backwards. According to the Yamaha links below FC3A supports half-pedaling whereas FC4A does not specify either way.  Users need a pedal that does NOT support half-pedaling for Genos 2, is that the takeaway? So, users should purchase the FC4A as a compatible optional pedal, correct?

https://usa.yamaha.com/products/music_production/accessories/fc3a/index.html
https://usa.yamaha.com/products/music_production/accessories/fc4a/index.html

Sorry, working from a rusty memory. You are correct, the info was backwards. You need the FC4A.

[Michael Trigoboff]

Sorry, working from a rusty memory. You are correct, the info was backwards. You need the FC4A.

While this is true, I am successfully using an FC3A, left over from when I had a Montage. The half pedal feature of it isn't being used with my Genos2 (or with my Genos before that), but it isn't hurting anything either.

[DaPaleRider]

I started my Pa5X - Genos2 research and what struck me is how difficult it is to get voices and styles for the Korg Pa arrangers. They are few and also extremely expensive.
For Yamaha arrangers you are bombarded with styles and voice packs. I think this also makes it very attractive if you want to sell a second-hand Yamaha Arranger.

In fact, there are so many styles and voice packs available that you can keep playing new songs for years to come when you get bored of the preset styles.

[Christophermoment]

While this is true, I am successfully using an FC3A, left over from when I had a Montage. The half pedal feature of it isn't being used with my Genos2 (or with my Genos before that), but it isn't hurting anything either.

mamero, was asking about which one a user should get, as a pedal is not supplied with a Genos2. The implication being that the user does not have any lying around. Then if a user needs to purchase one, why pay $20.00 more for an FC3A.

[BogdanH]

...difficult it is to get voices and styles for the Korg Pa arrangers. They are few and also extremely expensive.

-that's true (at least for good ones).
But here we talk about TOTL keyboards, which supposedly already have the best voices onboard. Styles? Well, it's an arranger keyboard and so certain creativity is expected -unless we wish to sound exactly the same as the guy basking around the corner.

For Yamaha arrangers you are bombarded with styles and voice packs. I think this also makes it very attractive if you want to sell a second-hand Yamaha Arranger.

Quality vs quantity.
I have all packs that Yamaha made (and some more).. simply because they were free and it costs nothing to keep them on disk. But at the end, I only maybe use 4-5 voices and that's all.
When I'm deciding about new keyboard, I never think about resale value -I'm buying it for myself in first place.

Bogdan

[EileenL]

When these packs came out we paid a lot of money for them to use on our Tyros4 or5 because we did not have these voices on board or the styles and Multi Pads that were on them.
  Now with Genos2 a lot of those voices have been added and styles so the packs are probably not so important. Hence we are getting them free. It is rather like buying a CD. You don't always like all the songs but you get it for the ones you do.
  I have never sold a keyboard with any of this content on it as people want to add there own and have never had any problems selling.