The first Genos 2 teaser

[BogdanH]

...
My PA5x 76 has a fatar keyboard and plays great!
...

Fatar? That would be a step back. The noisiest, most awful and most unreliable keyboards I have played on / owned.
...

To avoid possible confusion... I believe that musicman01 and AndrewKeyz talk about two totally different keybeds. Pa5x 76-keys has normal semi-weighted keys, while Pa5x 88-keys (which I believe Andrew has/had) uses hammer-action keys.

Just for clarification,
Bogdan

[mikf]

I don't know if Yamaha outsources some of their keyboards to companies like Fatar, but it wouldn't necessarily be stupid if they did. There are big trade offs in overall weight and cost in using the best quality, weighted or simulated hammer action keybeds. Then there is the inherent overhead cost of in- house manufacturing in large corporations. So outsourcing and lesser quality keyboards are inevitably used. As far as the narrower keys are concerned, when you have 88 keys saving a mm or 2 per key really adds up.
Mike

[Rick D.]

Hi Guys,

Well, their marketing strategy is working as planned. What better way to get people willing to part with $5000-$6000 USD then to tease us until we can no longer take it LOL! 
As Eileen said, I surely hope they have something worth upgrading for. As with the Tyros line,  I bought the 1,2,4 and 5, but I skipped the 3 as I didn't think they did enough for my use to make it worth my while.
We shall see soon. As always I never buy them when they first come out. I like to wait until they get all the bugs worked out.

Let's hope they blow our minds with the Genos 2!

Rick D.

[Amwilburn]

To avoid possible confusion... I believe that musicman01 and AndrewKeyz talk about two totally different keybeds. Pa5x 76-keys has normal semi-weighted keys, while Pa5x 88-keys (which I believe Andrew has/had) uses hammer-action keys.

Just for clarification,
Bogdan

additionally, musicman should probably known AndrewKeyz purchased and refunded (after a long ordeal) his PA5x88, so he's well aware of weighted keys.

As a music instrument salesperson, fatar keys are absolutely a compromise. There are *much* much better key actions out there, but they also cost more to manufacture. Fatar is a wonderful compromise of cost, weight, and performance, if you're willing to play much bouncier keys than a real piano would have.

But it's *far* from the best. pjd can back me up here, after trying so many as well: the top of the line keys are hybrid grand keys like the N1x & N2, followed by the upright hybrid keys, followed by wooden key with escapment (nwx, grand touch with natural wood, even portables like Yamaha P515, Roland FP90x) then hybrid wood keys like Roland RD2000 & Casio PXS5000-PXS7000, then graded hammer plastic with escapement, then without, then fatar, then some even slower weighted plastic key actions (some of the Korg, Alesis  and Casio plastic key actions are *painfully* slow).

That's in reference to the *weighted* hammer action fatar keybeds. However, the semi weighted ones are *fanstastic*, and among the best on the market. I don't know if the wonderful Pa5x76 keys are fatar, but the PA5x88 is (interestingly, the PA1xPro/2xPro/3xPro 76 were also fatar, so *likely* the Pa4x76 and PA5x76 are)

so for further clarification, fatar semiweighted = awesome, but fatar hammer action = okay compromise.

Which means they're *both* correct!

Mark

[Tommy 73]

However, the semi weighted ones are *fanstastic*, and among the best on the market. I don't know if the wonderful Pa5x76 keys are fatar, but the PA5x88 is (interestingly, the PA1xPro/2xPro/3xPro 76 were also fatar, so *likely* the Pa4x76 and PA5x76 are)

so for further clarification, fatar semiweighted = awesome, but fatar hammer action = okay compromise. Î

The Pa5X 61/76 are a revised semi-weighted FATAR version from previous models (pa3x,pa4x,Kronos, etc) with a much better aftertouch trigger this time, you don't have to stand on the keybed as you did previously to trigger AT...

Pa5X 88, I believe, is FATAR TP100, as opposed to the new FATAR TP110, which has many people asking why not the new TP110 for PA5X 88?

Personally I do not like the PA5X 88 action, but, i find the semi-weighted 76 in my PA5X to be good...

Also, the New Montage-M8x will soon become my master keybed with PA5X, + other keyboards midi through M8x, which i found to be a vast improvement over the PA5X 88 in comparison...

Will be interesting to see if Genos 2 gets a 88 hammer action keybed this time ?

[Oxford1035]

How's about Swindon Town Red!!

Only if I can add yellow and blue 🤣

[mikf]

How's about Swindon Town Red!!

Guy spots the Swindon Town manager walking down the street with a brand new Genos 2 under his arm.
"What are you doing with that?" he asks.
"I got it for the team" replies the manager.
" Wow" says the guy  "you drive a hard bargain!".
"Not really" he replies " I had to throw in a couple of thousand of my own money to make up the difference".

Mike

[musicman01]

Dear Amwillburn,

The keyboard I mainly want to mean is Semi weighted from Fatar, which has also been used in the Nord Electro/stage as well as Wersi, Böhm, studiologic and many others.
What is mainly the problem with the Pa5x 88 version, according to Korg specialists, is the construction of the cabinet (metal), which especially amplifies the sound of the hammer action.
Which, for example, is less the case than with Studiologic SL88 (Tp100) because the case is made of plastic.

What I especially want to say and have written here is that there have already been numerous complaints about the build quality of Genos respectively! Apparently many people here have forgotten about it, I suspect?
Doesn't Yamaha read forums like this?
As someone like me who has been repairing keyboards and organs for over 30 years
and repeatedly replaced buttons that were broken or faded and each time had to find out how bad several of them were
control panels looked due to the substandard material used at Genos.
It is somewhat normal that my reaction to the first teaser is "I hope it's not real!! it looks like a plastic box again, they then go back to the same path as Tyros!!!".
If there are people who like to deny themselves, that's their business.
Genos 2 will more than likely be an expensive arranger keyboard, and my opinion is that at least the same materials are used as the comparable competition, for example Ketron, Korg, etc.
And yes indeed my pre-order has already been placed 2 weeks ago because the sound quality, styles and especially the operating options were very good, but if build quality has not improved the order will be canceled as simple as that!!
PS: I explained these findings to Peter Baartmans 3 years ago, as well as a few errors that were resolved shortly afterwards.

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Only if I can add yellow and blue 🤣

Swindon Town 1 - 1  Oxford United    Genos Stadium

[Ikspeelpiano]

part 2 teaser friday? 27/10

[ton37]

I guess tomorrow (monday)

If the same procedure is followed as the Genos 1 it was after the first teaser: 3,7,7 days.
Start on 20 oct.
23 oct
30 oct
6 nov.
..... 

[AidanG]

As someone has already remarked here, Yamaha has never relied on any third party for their keybeds, so the chances of them using a Fatar action is precisely zero. However, there is also the question of which keybed the company would use if they went down the route of an 88-key version. As far as I'm aware, the only 88 weighted keybed WITH aftertouch (an absolute requirement on an arranger) which Yamaha have produced in recent years is the one used in the Motif/Montage series. And those 88 models have always been impractically heavy for anyone without roadies – even the newest Montage M8x is a back-breaking 28kg.

Also, as I've pointed out elsewhere on this forum, if an 88 was going to be an option this time, you can bet your bottom dollar the lead promo teaser would have featured it. The keybed in the video is clearly of the synth type.

[ton37]

But Yamaha likes to fool their customers... 

[Eric, B]

It's on the Yamaha website now:
https://europe.yamaha.com/en/products/contents/keyboards/your-next-masterpiece/index.html
Eric

[John T4]

Its interesting it says
"Come discover the next generation of Yamaha workstations in a very special online event"

workstation and NOT arranger.

Im sure its the new Genos but maybe they have changed the emphasis more to workstation to attract more studio use.

[ton37]

They called the Genos 1 also an workstation on their website.. so why is that 'interesting'?

[John T4]

sorry
just realised that, so not interesting at all.
Its all the talk of arranger keyboards that threw me...

And I have a Genos.....

[Ikspeelpiano]

 

It's on the Yamaha website now:
https://europe.yamaha.com/en/products/contents/keyboards/your-next-masterpiece/index.html
Eric

[Amwilburn]

*snip*

Personally I do not like the PA5X 88 action, but, i find the semi-weighted 76 in my PA5X to be good...

My point exactly!

Mark

[Amwilburn]

Dear Amwillburn,

The keyboard I mainly want to mean is Semi weighted from Fatar, which has also been used in the Nord Electro/stage as well as Wersi, Böhm, studiologic and many others.
What is mainly the problem with the Pa5x 88 version, according to Korg specialists, is the construction of the cabinet (metal), which especially amplifies the sound of the hammer action.

*snip*

And yes indeed my pre-order has already been placed 2 weeks ago because the sound quality, styles and especially the operating options were very good, but if build quality has not improved the order will be canceled as simple as that!!
PS: I explained these findings to Peter Baartmans 3 years ago, as well as a few errors that were resolved shortly afterwards.

I agree with (both of) you; the 76 key semiweighted fatar action is indeed, fantastic (I like it a little better than the Genos keys); but no the problem with the 88 isn't just the noise. Andrew and I shared a very similar experience; it just doesn't respond like a real piano (and for that matter, Fatar weighted keys never do) and also, they tend to feel sluggish and imprecise. One of my customers had been waiting to preorder the Pa5x for 4 years, but the moment he tried the weighted keys, he cancelled his order (and is now waiting for Genos 2... and he's a Korg loyalist. PA800, PA900, PA1000 are his previous boards, of which he's only kept the PA1000).

Don't get me wrong; weighted keys are generally still better than unweighted or semiweighted as far as a pianist is concerned, but there are *much* better weighted key options out there; for portables alone: P515, FP90x, CP88 all have great (and much better than the PA5x88) weighted keys.

But yes, fatar semi weighted keys are fantastic, relative to other non hammer keybeds.

Mark

[soryt]

It is so strange to read a lot of comments from people who not even playing the Genos and have no idea how it works on the long term., but I hope ( and expect) that they come up with a big change or update on the Genos 2 after 6 years , I already ordered it more than a year ago and hopefully get it this year, just like I  did with the Genos .

[Sokratis1974]

Hello. I would like to make a question which causes me quite a lot of interest.
So I notice that for the first time before the release of an instrument and after almost Yamaha officially announce the Genos 2, (and I use the word "almost" because we have not the officiall name of the new product by the company), there is still a commercial distribution the previous model. That is, the Genos 1 is still readily available from the two largest music store sites in Europe  (Thomann & Music Store), as well as from the largest American music store site (Sweetwater)

https://www.thomann.de/gr/yamaha_genos.htm?shp=eyJjb3VudHJ5IjoiZ3IiLCJjdXJyZW5jeSI6MiwibGFuZ3VhZ2UiOjJ9&reload=1

https://www.musicstore.com/en_GR/EUR/Yamaha-Genos-Workstation-Keyboard-EU-/art-KEY0004708-000

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Genos--yamaha-genos-76-key-arranger-workstation

I don't remember this ever happening again either from Yamaha or from any other company, as not only a month before the announcement, but a few months before the product is was not available. As I recall the Tyros 5 was discontinued quite some time before the official announcement of the Genos, as was the Korg Pa4x shortly before the Pa5x was announced, and the same happens shortly before a new product replaces its predecessor. Even recently in the case of Montage, we will remember that the product was destocked a few months ago.
So what could be going on here?
So if, as the events show, the new successor of the Genos 1 is coming, then how have all these commercial giants allowed something to happen that will make it very difficult for the upcoming sales of a product, namely the Genos 1.
Shouldn't they have normally let the stock run out and then make an announcement? Because I find it hard to believe that all these music commercial giants don't know the companies' plans for their new products many months in advance.
But please don't get me wrong, because I'm not disputing that something new is coming (obviously Genos 2), but I have this question about an fact that I at least don't remember happening again.

[Michael Trigoboff]

Hello. I would like to make a question which causes me quite a lot of interest.

Excellent question, totally worthy of your philosopher namesake.

[soundphase]

Good question. They perhaps will decide to continue both?

[ton37]

A question that only can be answered by the strategic manager of Yamaha. It all has to make something with the money for Yamaha and his stakeholders. Many companies works like this; cellphones, carz, tv, furniture, clothes, shoes ... it is common entrepreneurship 

[ton37]

It is so strange to read a lot of comments from people who not even playing the Genos and have no idea how it works on the long term., but I hope ( and expect) that they come up with a big change or update on the Genos 2 after 6 years , I already ordered it more than a year ago and hopefully get it this year, just like I  did with the Genos .

Why is it strange when people talk about something they don't have? Many people have an opinion about, for example, F1 racing (Max Verstappen) without ever having driven an F1 car. Or talk about life on Mars without ever having been to space. Or they talk about the electric car, without having one themselves. So also about keyboards, which they don't have (yet). That's what distinguishes humans from other organisms, they can communicate... I won't say whether that always makes you happy...

[usaraiya]

There must be a substantial quantity of unsold Genos 1 that they are trying to offload. I can visualize Genos 1 selling with Genos 2 if they price the older one about $1000-$1200 less than the newer keyboard. I think they are trying to move the unsold merchandise, and there is nothing wrong with that, IMHO.

Uday

[Sokratis1974]

There must be a substantial quantity of unsold Genos 1 that they are trying to offload. I can visualize Genos 1 selling with Genos 2 if they price the older one about $1000-$1200 less than the newer keyboard. I think they are trying to move the unsold merchandise, and there is nothing wrong with that, IMHO.

Uday

There is nothing wrong, but it is commercially unusual. At least I don't remember it.

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

i have noticed in today's world everything is declining.
The real reason for lack of planning is that no departments talk to the other department
thus everything get's confused.
It is the same as when you telephone a company, they say we do not deal with your problem and tell you to phone a different department. It puts us all on a merry-go-round.
My view is that it is what is  called "passing the buck".
This seems to be the modern trend today.
When i worked in Austin Rover and BMW, you have to work to a drawing, but as things got more up to date everything looked great on paper but not in practice. What i think is, the bright sparks in Yamaha are confusing each other and passing it on to us.


Welcome to AI "CONFUSION"!!

[Sokratis1974]

i have noticed in today's world everything is declining.
The real reason for lack of planning is that no departments talk to the other department
thus everything get's confused.
It is the same as when you telephone a company, they say we do not deal with your problem and tell you to phone a different department. It puts us all on a merry-go-round.
My view is that it is what is  called "passing the buck".
This seems to be the modern trend today.
When i worked in Austin Rover and BMW, you have to work to a drawing, but as things got more up to date everything looked great on paper but not in practice. What i think is, the bright sparks in Yamaha are confusing each other and passing it on to us.


Welcome to AI "CONFUSION"!!

We are definitely talking about confusion because if we take the view heard above that they are trying to sell the stock of the old Genos 1, then I would expect a much better price so that they sell easier. However, the fact that the price remains almost at the same level as when I bought it in 2018 (ie 3800€) compared to 3699€ today, at least for me, is strange. I honestly have no idea what's actually going on but what I'm seeing I can't explain without (I repeat) it being something bad.