The Genos Gain for Cubase 12 and other things

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi
I have got my head now around Cubase and use it's Control room also.
Yes i had quite a bit of headbanging at first.
I must tell you that play a song  on the Genos and send that to Cubase for midi editing which is very easy and does not require the Focusrite.
Focusrite comes in when recording to a wave track
The gain level is paramount and  as i said we need the right level for gainstaging.
Once that is achieved the mixing is a quick process. It is looking that way for me now.
I have taken my time over one song and hammered it to death and destruction many times and as you know in Cubase it is non destructive if you save an original take.
I now can gainstage properly and mix a song, but i have struggled in certain areas and that made me purchase th AB Metric plugin to solo all frequences easily and use a reference track to compare inside this little program.

If you ask  what is the difference between rms and Luf's you would get a long story about average louness and so forth.
If a CD is about -8 to-9 Luf's is must be equivilent to the - 3 db that we all know for 60s, 70s music 
This EDM rubbish is up near the 0db or Motorhead!!! "Earplugs"!!!
The better that you can get a quality gain ,the easier it is to gainstage and mix.
I am still learning as it never ends, .
it is all fun and keeps the noddle from depreciation.!!

Ps Luf's is the new loudness units that is supposed to be the todays's standard. It is what humans perceive as loudness. I wished the BBC kept to it .
With Rms , i not to sure of all of it's technicalities but i would stay with what we perceive as loudness because Rms can look loud from looking at a meter but but not as loud as you may perceive when hearing it if that makes any sense.
If you go over the Luf unit for a streaming site  they would turn you down to -14 Luf's. That is why -18Luf's leaves headroom for mastering.
So if you had the gains and mix properly done you can be at the same -14 Luf's as someone else  and his one may be turned down being over the top and that  will sound duller and lower in perceived volume with both songs being -14 Luf's.

[overover]

Hi Chris

Is there any difference between RCA output over SPDF
I hear there is not much difference
So you can increase the SPDF by +12db
You can do the same With flat EQ  and use also +12db
People should know that the Genos master volume is not a gain control.

This setting would get you to 23 Luf's.18Luf's roughly to get into the sweet spot for mixing.
It would be nice to get the gain for recording in Cubase a little higher quality level which gives a good bit of headroom for a wave file.
Up to now i use the Cubase gain.
Not too bad on strong instruments but others can be a pain after gain, because it always leaves a noise floor, hence needing a better gain level to start with.
I use  Izotope RX Elements to get rid of that at the moment, so not the end of the world.
The Yamaha support man i spoke to uses IK Multimedia software to get rid of his noisefloor.
This means it is something we will have to live with, with the current Genos if that comes from support.
If the genos had a 24db gain we would be there with bags of room.


All the Best
John:)

Hi John,

The difference is that the S/PDIF signal is already a digital signal (going directly from your Audio Interface to the computer via USB). When using the analog Line Outputs on the Genos, these analog signals must first be converted into a digital signal in the A/D converters of the Audio Interface. With a good setting/adjustment, there should be almost no audible difference in quality. But if you have the option (i.e. the Audio Interface used has a coaxial S/PDIF Input), I recommend bringing the Genos' Main Out signal digitally into the computer. (If you are also working with the Genos' SUB Outputs, you must use these analog via the Audio Interface anyway.)

By the way, if you're using the analog Main Outputs (i.e. going from there to the Audio Interface), I recommend turning the Master Volume control up quite a bit (about 3 o'clock). If you're monitoring the Genos signal through the GNS-MS01 speaker system , you can turn the volume down there if it is too loud overall.

The SUB Outputs and the AUX Outputs, on the other hand, have a fixed level(not affected by the Master Volume control). To increase this on the Genos, you could, as already mentioned, e.g. increase the Output on the Master Compressor a little, or you could increase the respective part volumes. However, the most important thing is that the Input Gain of the AUDIO INTERFACE is set correctly (i.e. turned up as much as possible, but without the clipping LED lighting up during the loudest music passages). Depending on the Audio Interface model and the Input jacks used, the Input Gain can be set directly on the Interface or in the associated control program on the computer that is supplied with the Interface. If the Input Gain on the INTERFACE is set correctly for each analog Input used, as described, you will not have any Gain problems in the DAW (e.g. Cubase) either.


Hope this helps!

Best regards,
Chris

[Michael Trigoboff]

Is there any difference between the Sub3/4 outputs and the AUX outputs?

[overover]

Is there any difference between the Sub3/4 outputs and the AUX outputs?

Hi Michael,

SUB Outs 3/4 can be alternatively configured as AUX Outs (in the Line Out display). Then they output the same signal as the MAIN Outs, the Headphones jack and the 8-pin socket for the GNS-MS01 speaker system, but have a fixed level.

When configured as SUB Outs, these outputs work exactly like SUB Outs 1/2. So you can either assign any parts to a single SUB Out (stereo signal is summed to mono) or to two adjacent SUB Outs (1/2 or 3/4) if a stereo signal is required (e.g. for Mic/VH). Note: Parts routed to SUB Outs will be removed from the MAIN mix. For the sake of completeness, it should be mentioned that no System Effects (Reverb, Chorus and Variation effect blocks) are output via the SUB Outs. (Of course, this does not apply if SUB 3/4 are configured as AUX Outs.) SUB Outs also have a fixed level (are not affected by the Master Volume control).


Best regards,
Chris

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Chris

Thank you for your explanation , much appreciated

I do not know what the difference would be by connecting with SPDF  with the input gain conumdrum

Is there a marked difference  as i get very good quality with RCA sockets sound.

I will try SPDF but i do not know what the two ends of the connector would be like exactly
I need to know what to order from amazon or a  music gear shop.
I have seen that you have a +12 gain movement in the Utility.
I could give it a try as Digital to digital should be better.
Have you a description of the lead that i should buy.


All the Best
john

[overover]

Hi Chris

Thank you for your explanation , much appreciated

I do not know what the difference would be by connecting with SPDF  with the input gain conumdrum

Is there a marked difference  as i get very good quality with RCA sockets sound.

I will try SPDF but i do not know what the two ends of the connector would be like exactly
I need to know what to order from amazon or a  music gear shop.
I have seen that you have a +12 gain movement in the Utility.
I could give it a try as Digital to digital should be better.
Have you a description of the lead that i should buy.


All the Best
john

Hi John,

To connect the Genos S/PDIF Digital Out to the S/PDIF IN of the Focusrite 6i6, you need a high-quality coaxial cable suitable for digital signal transmission, with RCA (Cinch) connectors on both sides:
>>> https://www.thomann.de/gb/cordial_cpds1_cc_digitalkabel.htm


P.S.
When using the analogue Line Outputs of the Genos, it is important to use unbalanced cables (6.3 mm TS phone plugs on both sides), i.e. no balanced TRS cables. If you are using the Inputs on the front panel of the 6i6 (where you can adjust the Input Gain directly by using the GAIN knobs), it is important that these Inputs are NOT switched to "INST". Basically, I recommend using to the LINE IN jacks on the back of the Focusrite. Here you have to make sure that the Input and Output Levels are set appropriately in the associated software program "Focusrite Control". (If necessary, use the "PAD" function to lower Input Levels that are too high by 10dB.)


Best regards,
Chris

[Michael Trigoboff]

When using the analogue Line Outputs of the Genos, it is important to use unbalanced cables (6.3 mm TS phone plugs on both sides), i.e. no balanced TRS cables.

Can you explain why? Thanks...

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Chris
I will get on it and get a cable
No harm to give it a try.
Some say though there is not a lot of difference between SPDF and the RCA  results sound wise
At the moment i have to use the Line on the focusrite 6i6 and use Low Gain.
With SPDF lead plugged into back of my 6i6 from the Genos i still have RCA outs to Monitors. I have not got to use the SPDF cable out?
So i gather that i still use Line  and low gain on my Focusrite program mixer. I cannot use hi gain as it would be a nasty noisy experience.
I do doubt whether the Genos will exeed much difference in gain to that of RCA. . I do not know really know until i try.
I just need a slight putting right here just to make sure i do not do a Marty Mcfly when he blew up the massive speaker in "Back to The Future"!!!
£9 for the lead and £10 postage . No wonder the Royal mail are going on strike!!! !"Yo Man THOMANN"!!
All done. Thanks for the link.



Hi Mike
I use the unbalance RCA outputs  when i started with the Genos and got a hum noise through my speakers.
I purchased a Behringer hum destroyer And have the RCA outputs of the Genos into the Hum destroyer and balanced cables out to the speakers.
What i have been doing is use that system for my Yamaha DXR 8 speakers and then pull the main out leads to use the outs from the Genos straight into the Focusrite using balanced cable even though the Genos has unbalanced outs.
I am not the  most technical about all of this but it has worked.
If now i use the SPDF as Chris says i can use the main RCA main out for my DXR's and the SPDF straight to the Focusrite.
A lot neater. With the +12 db at our disposal with SPDF that will get up to -23 Luf so ony 5 Luf's out .
The software like Cubase  gain would probably with an estimate be inside the +12db Gain needed for little or no noise floor.
Well, hope!!

.

All the Best
John

[overover]

When using the analogue Line Outputs of the Genos, it is important to use unbalanced cables (6.3 mm TS phone plugs on both sides), i.e. no balanced TRS cables.

Can you explain why? Thanks...

Hi Michael,

Yes, as already mentioned, all audio outputs of the Genos (as with all other Yamaha arranger keyboard models) are unbalanced. That means the RING contact of the output jacks is not connected internally. If you use a balanced cable (TRS to TRS plug), a balanced input (e.g. mixer, audio interface or active speaker) expects an input signal (minus phase signal) at the RING contact. But he only gets the TIP signal (plus phase signal). The minus phase input is therefore "open" (because, as mentioned, the RING wire of the cable is not connected in the keyboard output jack). This can lead to humming, and the resulting input signal is in many cases 6dB quieter (because the "minus phase" signal expected from the balanced input is missing). Therefore (if no DI box is used) unbalanced "TS to TS" cables MUST be used.

You CAN use a "TRS to TRS", but then the RING and SLEEVE contacts must be bridged (shorted) in at least one of the TRS plugs. A balanced input then recognizes, just like the recommended use of an unbalanced "TS to TS" cable, that an unbalanced signal is to be fed in.


Best regards,
Chris

[Michael Trigoboff]

Yes, as already mentioned, all audio outputs of the Genos (as with all other Yamaha arranger keyboard models) are unbalanced. That means the RING contact of the output jacks is not connected internally. If you use a balanced cable (TRS to TRS plug), a balanced input (e.g. mixer, audio interface or active speaker) expects an input signal (minus phase signal) at the RING contact. But he only gets the TIP signal (plus phase signal). The minus phase input is therefore "open" (because, as mentioned, the RING wire of the cable is not connected in the keyboard output jack). This can lead to humming, and the resulting input signal is in many cases 6dB quieter (because the "minus phase" signal expected from the balanced input is missing). Therefore (if no DI box is used) unbalanced "TS to TS" cables MUST be used.

Thanks, Chris. I just ordered two of these.

[overover]

Thanks, Chris. I just ordered two of these.

Best regards,
Chris

[theoutlaws]

Hi, for recording in cubase there is one very simple solution. You will find it in the preamp section of every single cubase inputchannel.
Please contact me, if you perhaps not exactly know where this "inputchannel preamp" to find is. You can give up to 48 dB of gainpower to your Genos signal.
You will find these section a little bit hidden. Open the channel equalizer and find it downside left.
But please remember: First step ist to FIND the "INPUT-CHANNEL-SECTION" of your Genos in the cubasemixer!!
Hope this can help you?

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[theoutlaws]

...please excuse me, this was the wrong photo in my last post.

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[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi to Outlaw


You must be talking about the Pre-gain that you can bring up in the rack.
I got the genos up to about -33 Lufs's and used the pre-gain on the stereo input.
I have found if you up the gain over 10 db  it can produce a noise floor on certain instruments that need more gain.
After looking at Chris's comments , i have decided to buy a good lead for the SPDF out from the Genos to my Focusrite 6i6.
There is a gain of +12db in the Utility on Genos.
if i combine that and some Cubase pre-gain things might even out hopefully.
Big thankyou for your input,much appreciated
I just need to get firing on all six 


All the best
john

[Michael Trigoboff]

I just need to get firing on all six.

Or you could get one of those newfangled carbon-free sustainable electric brains, instead of your current gas guzzler. 

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

I'm afaid that i have been a carbon guzzler as i paid £20 for a SPDF lead only to find out it is just a common RCA lead with gold tips.
I might be wrong but is there anything special in the SPDF lead??

Anyway i got the sound going with an ordinary RCA, but still cannot find the right combination for recording on my Focusrite 6i6.
So i have played safe and gone back to RCA until i try this special RCA lead.
I'm Confused here!! as a Carbon Guzzler!!!

[Michael Trigoboff]

This is what Sweetwater advised me to use for the S/PDIF connection from my Genos to my 8i6 audio interface. It works perfectly.

Don't forget to set your 6i6 audio interface to sync to the Genos clock.

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Michael


First i tried a RCA lead thinking that it would work and i got nothing.
It is when you mention using a SPDF that i started to think about it and Chris mentioned Thomann as we are in UK.
I googled and one is  mono  and SPDF carries a stereo signal.


I have ordered a SPDF lead from Thomann and now waiting for delivery

All the Best
John

[overover]

Hi John,

In principle, such an S/PDIF cable is "only" a simple "RCA (= Cinch) male to RCA (= Cinch) male" cable, as is also used in the analog Audio sector. But in order to ensure the best possible digital signal transmission, especially for use with S/PDIF-compatible connections (Sony/Philips Digital Interface) a high-quality, double-shielded coaxial cable, ideally with gold-plated contacts on the connectors, should be used (e.g. the one I recommend from Thomann).


Best regards,
Chris

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Chris
Thank you very much for all of your explanations.
I now have to wait patiently for the lead as it has to clear customs plus another 3-4 days.


All the Best
John

[pjd]

Adding to Chris...

The key word is "co-axial" and it should be 75ohm impedance.

Why? S/PDIF carries a high-speed digital data signal and has special needs. It's not audio.

Hope the extra info helps -- pj

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi

Chris did give me the exact specification with the lead from Thomann.
Chris gave me the link
if you magnify  the cable up on their site you can see 75ohm written on the side of the cable.
It  is a pain waiting for this cable as has not cleared customs yet and will take another 3-4 days once cleared  and the flippin' postage is more than the cable's worth.
It will be wortht it!!!

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi
I have had nothing but failure with this SPDF Business.
With RCA leads out of the Genos into the Focusrite 6i6 and usb to computer  everything worked fine.
I tried all combinations plugging the SPDF lead to Focusrite.
The Genos worked ok , but getting vst's to sound was hopeless.
When i did get Vst working the Genos sound did not work
Once the Genos was working again even +6db in the Utility was enough to distort the sound.
I tried the front ports to no avail and got truly fed up and went back to my original setup.
I have to take the DXR leads out of the main outs and plug leads in that go to the Focusrite for recording and all of that goes out to my Focal Alpha monitors.
I tried putting my Dxr speakers on the line out next to the main out , but the Genos has no control over the volume.
I could possibly adjust the speakers volume though and leave the recording for main outs otherwise get a switch box for the speakers.
It can be a pig setting up things from Genos and also getting Cubase configured  for each type of setup
That is where i am at at the moment floundering as i am not  an electrically minded Boff and tend to get the railway lines mixed up!!


All the best John

[pjd]

Once the Genos was working again even +6db in the Utility was enough to distort the sound.

Hi John --

Just a thought after reading your comment.

+6dB doesn't seem like a lot -- it's only "6". But, +6dB is the same as amplifying the digital audio signal level by two (2).

If the digital audio waveform level is already near maximum (i.e., no digital headroom left), setting the digital out level to +6dB will cause the digital audio waveform to clip and distort. In other words, with the digital out level at +0dB, you may be getting all you can out of Genos already and need to boost/compress/limit the signal further down the digital signal chain, i.e., in the DAW software.

For the real tech nerds, the S/PDIF digital audio stream comes straight outta the SWP70 tone generator.

Dunno if this helps -- pj

[Michael Trigoboff]

Just in case it might be helpful, here's how I have my rig wired. I am not using any of the front jacks on my 8i6. Digital audio to and from the PC is via USB. Digital audio from the Genos to the 8i6 is via S/PDIF.

Which speakers are you trying to get the VSTs to sound through? What are those speakers connected to?

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[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Michael

I use my Yamaha DXR8 On main out and that goes though a hum destroyer in between Genos and speakers.
They are quite a powerful pair ,but excellent quality down at the right levels

I then plug in the SPDF cable and route that to my Focusrite 6i6 and same as your diagram the USB on the Focusrite  6i6 goes to computer and back to the Focusrite and out the RCA's to my Focal Alpha 50's
Well that seems to be the right set up plugged up wise.

Update

I have got it all working.
I had to get logical
I sat at the machine and slowly had another set up go and got it right.
Played an orchestral sound and it recorded at 20 Luf's straight off, so that is in the ballpark for Cubase mixing.
It is on things like tambourines that need bumping up but as things like that are just enhancements to a song  30 Luf should be alright or even normalize low sounds like maraccas etc.

So now i can leave my DXR 8's in the main out and SPDF takes care of the recording and playback.

The only thing now is to get my vst instruments to play on the Genos.
I have one pair of AKG headphones on the Genos and a pair in the Focusrite 6i6 and my Focal Alpha monitors from the Focusrite RCA outs .
What i want now is to get the VST sound on the DXR 8's for my live practice and fun.

I realize that the VST's will not come back down the SPDF cable into the Genos .
Will i have to use my spare focusrite out 1 an 2 sockets with RCA leads to the Genos AUX in ?
At the moment i cannot get a receive instrument audio.
I have Arturia VST 's and Korg plus Sampletank and i have all the Arturia and Korg synths as standalones as well as for Cubase and all running at buffer size 256 smoothly at 5 ms latency. Not bad that.
I like to say to everyone it is best to get a fast music computer purpose built with a 32gig drive.
Computer side of things are no worries  especially with system images made. Always keep two on separate terrabyte drives.
This saves all the heartaches of losing everything


All the best
John 

[Michael Trigoboff]

I ran into a nasty feedback problem when I tried to do what it sounds like you are doing. The problem is that when you route analog audio from your 6i6 audio interface to the Genos via AUX IN, it comes right back out again on the S/PDIF digital audio cable.

I think you would be much better off routing your VST audio output through the speakers attached to your audio interface. I do not have any speakers attached to my Genos.

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Michael

It must be easier for you being a software developer and Computer Science instructor
even being retired!!   All i ever got was a Doctorate of Madnesss certificate      

Well, I have got as far as you pointed out again and yes i can play through my Focusrite monitors.
They are flat response but i would like to get my standalone Vsts going out of the Genos into my DXR8's.

So if a signal like audio goes into the aux in on the Genos, does that mean it goes straight back automatically down or up the SPDF output??  or up the spout!
I am surprised that there is not a box that you can untick to stop the signal from going around again from the spdf.                                                                                                                       

[overover]

... So if a signal like audio goes into the aux in on the Genos, does that mean it goes straight back automatically down or up the SPDF output??  or up the spout!
I am surprised that there is not a box that you can untick to stop the signal from going around again from the spdf.                                                                                                                     

Hi John,

The S/PDIF digital output always has the same mix as the Line Out Main jacks, Aux Out jacks (if Sub Out 3/4 jacks are configured as AUX Out) and the Headphones jack.


Best regards,
Chris

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Chris
So whatever comes in the AUX IN  will go out of the main out and spdf similtaneously.


All the best
John