The Genos Gain for Cubase 12 and other things

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi
After a long time now , i am getting my head around the mixing and mastering dark areas and with Neutron 4 on the computer , you  can even enhance the Genos sound. No need for a PAX5 as the sound of the Genos is the boy.
My only beef at the moment with the Genos is the output gain and to get a decent gain out you have to engage the compressor if you leave  the  EQ flat.
I can get  roughly 36Luf's  with the EQ flat and Compressor off.
I can get down to 22Luf's with compressor engaged and Eq flat.
We all need around 20Luf's to start gain staging and mixing to 18 Luf's to finish in Ozone 10 for !4 Luf's streaming  and 8 to 9 Luf's if you want to stick the songs on a CD.
I use the Klanghelm VU meters now to gain stage but once done it always leave a noise floor. With this meter plugin you can check the gain and mid sides also.
If anyone has got any tips on how to get the max gain out of the Genos for no noise floor, i would appreciate that.
I use a Focusrite 6i6 and that is a quality sound USB  box.
I also have got my head around why Eileen says some of my mixes a were little on the harsh side.
Well, i have discovered the mid side areas and all others with an AB plugin. This one is a great plugin as you can solo the sub area, low mid, high mid, high's and bass. Match that to a reference song and you are almost there. I now do automation and stereo adjusting.
Taking my time and nearly ready to hopefully improve.
I just have to now find a go to method like templates to get in the ballpark a lot quicker.
Do not worry Eileen, i always set aside live practice every day as that is the key to not having to do hundreds of cutting and pasting.
I still like the human touch
Another thing when editing in Cubase is that styles always leaves a load of note flack all over the place and once you have cleared it with delete midi notes to the length size you choose everything is more clearer and pin sharp.
It is a pity that there is not a section on this forum for Cubase  and Genos owners as i am sure a lot of progress can be made with idea swapping
I must admit Izotope are improving all the time and bringing the frustrated an easier task to get results and you learn a lot on the way.


All the Best
John
With the noise floor ,i do deal with that with Izotopes RX Elements plugin 

[mixermixer]

I don't own a Genos, but I do have the SX900. Does Genos have a built in WAV recorder? What I do on my SX900 is record there to USB stick, then import to my DAW (in my case FL Studio), then I "normalize" the WAV file so that it brings up to a usable level.

Otherwise, on the 6i6, do you have it set to INST on both inputs assuming you are recording in stereo? Another thing you can try is the SPDIF option.

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Mixer

I tried instrument and live setting in the Scarlet mix Control and it makes no difference.
I think that the Instrument setting is for live instruments plugged into the Focusrite box
I have the input gain on low as there is quite a big noise floor on the high gain and i do not thing that is a go.
The only way for me is to set the Genos  at 20 minutes past the hour on the Volume knob  and have the compessor on Natural  46, the texture i leave at 50 and the output on 88. It is a good dry sound. Even though all effects and reverbs are off there is still very very mior nuances of some effects going on but not that noticeable.
This gives me around 18 to 20 Luf's which would be in the ball park for mixing.
What do you make of that??


All the best
John

[Lee Batchelor]

That sounds about right John. I think we must finally acknowledge that recording the Genos to any DAW has huge limitations and that Yamaha wants us to buy a Montage, which is well-engineered for that purpose, as well as, the live stage.

I got so disgusted with the trap doors and circus hoops required to record the Genos to Cubase, that I ended up only using VST instruments with the Genos as a $7,000 MIDI controller! Most VST voices are far superior to any of their Genos counterparts. Hans Zimmer uses VST voices for his movie scores. Those voices are readily available to any of us and are reasonably priced. I wouldn't waste anymore time figuring out how to get a decent recording of the Genos into a DAW. Of all the people on this site, you've probably achieved the best results. I admire your expertise. I'd love to hear what you could do with quality VST voices 😬.

I'm not trying to rain on your parade but you may have reached your maximum with the Genos to DAW recording. Do you use any quality VST voices? You have the knowledge. Give them a try. They're far easier to use because they aren't locked in the maze we call "Genos." 🤣

[Michael Trigoboff]

My only beef at the moment with the Genos is the output gain ...

I am not sure I am responding accurately to your situation, but what I do is increase the audio output setting on the Genos to +6 or +12 dB when I am recording audio to Cubase. Then I adjust the sliders in the Genos Mixer and Cubase MixConsole to get the levels I need.

I am using a Focusrite Scarlet 8i6 with the S/PDIF digital audio output from the Genos.

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Michael

Do you get any noise floor through the SPDF connection and how far up with the Genos volume knob do you go exactly

I find when i send a song to Cubase with the eq flat and compression not engaged it is in the 35 LUF's region and that means you have to increase the by 17 Luf's to get to 18 LUF's which is in the ballpark for mixing so it leaves 5 to 10 Luf's  whether streaming or Cd  which allows you to master your song and give it a touch of limiting to finalize.
I can get rid of noise floor with RX from Ozone.
It would be nice to get the Genos Smack on 18Luf's to get the best gain recording without raising the gain too much in Cubase.

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Lee

I am nearly there with the Genos and believe it or not Ozone 10 and Neutron 4 gets a little more quality out of the sounds as well.
I just done the main part of Matthew and Son  which i am using to get things rock on with the mix  and i have got pretty close now .
Yes it has taken a long time , but i still keep the practice up. With that song you have to get the syllables right or it sounds wrong and the bras and trumpet does a fine job as if i sang sung the sing song i would sound like a like a worn out frog.
The noise floor can be dealt with.
What i find confusing is if i use the Klanghelm VU meters which are supposed to be accurate  and get any track sound to 18Luf's, the Cubase mixer at the bottom says it is -4db's when it also should read 18 Luf's  and there a lot of sounds that do not need so much increasing and some need massive increases.
You just have to go by your ears and reference track.
So i get the boldest sounds to 18 Luf's and work around that fo balancing everything.
There is an AB plugin that is 100% for soloing every frequency that counts against a reference  and i have just got my ears around that now.
I see what you think on when finishing this song.
I have just got to get a system going now.

[Michael Trigoboff]

Do you get any noise floor through the SPDF connection and how far up with the Genos volume knob do you go exactly?

The Genos volume knob does not control the volume of the S/PDIF digital audio output. It controls the volume of the analog audio output of the Genos, which means that when you are not using the S/PDIF connection, you are using an internal analog amplifier which may well have a noise floor of its own. Using the digital audio output instead bypasses this amplifier.

My monitors are not connected to the Genos. I have them connected to the 8i6, and I use the master volume knob on the 8i6 to control their volume.

I keep the Genos volume knob turned all the way down, but that's just me being obsessive. That knob has no effect on anything the way I have things set up.

I described the setup, including a diagram of how I have it wired, in this thread.

[Christophermoment]

Hi John, try Club Cubase Live Stream. They have these usually every week and you can ask questions about anything Cubase related and get answers from Greg in real time. Here's a link from the 18th, give it a try. He knows everything there is to know about Cubase.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsyYZ5pkEpk


Christopher.

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Michael
Well the rub is whether you get a higher gain from using spdf as opposed to rca ins and outs
I use a pair of DXR's yamaha speakers for the pleasure listening as they are not flat and i use  Focal alpha monitors for Cubase.

All the best
John

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Chris
I will have a look on Friday and ask a question to Greg Ondo if i can.

I am really convinced that i can only attain a quality recording without a noticable noise floor if i incorporate the compressor on Genos and have the Eq flat
As i said there is a Ozone tool that can eradicate the low noisefloor.
I do not think that after reading that you would  get a higher quality recording gain using spdf input.
I put the compressor on Natural and increased the volume in the compressor till i get 20 Luf's.
Am i right in saying that the compressor on the Genos is more or less a  elaborate volume control rather than squeezing the peaks and fattening up the body.
All i wanted to do is to get other peoples opinion through their experiences and if there is a Genos 2/3 Yamaha they  need to look at the gain control as they have made provision for compaibility with Cubase using the Genos

Thanks for the tip Chris, I will get on it


All the Best
john

[pjd]

Hi John --

I'm sorry this response is tardy.

Here are a few articles about gain staging. I hope other folks find them useful, too.

https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/gain-staging/
https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/quick-guide-proper-gain-staging-for-live-sound-mixing/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0gvT2RHMXk

And a few links about LUFS:

https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/what-is-lufs-and-why-should-i-care/
https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/how-to-master-audio-for-youtube/
https://blog.landr.com/lufs-loudness-metering/

Gain staging deals with decibels (dB) because it applies to electrical signal levels (referenced to a zero point).

LUFS are whole other creature and are used mainly in the mastering and/or mixing process alone. LUFS are a measure of perceived loudness, not electrical signal level. Thus, it isn't meaningful to compare dB vs. LUFS, especially for gain staging.

I hope these thoughts and links are helpful -- pj

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Lee

How are you doing?
I am getting pretty good results now
1    The gain staging is learnt now and balancing everything
2    I do not use much effects  only necessary ones

I put Ozone Relay on all tracks  (Relay is a low-CPU-overhead utility that lets you adjust your tracks' gain, pan, stereo image)
Then underneath a Klanghelm Vu meter on all tracks which i use the  18 Luf meter and match all tracks ,(Gain Stageing).
I do find the meter better to look at and i check also at bottom of Cubase mixer to see if that matches or near.
Then i put  Neutron 4 on all tracks.
This allows me to enhance the sounds which is fantastic and the intelligent program puts you in the ballpark with almost everything.
I maybe stick a reverb here and there or a special effect.
I make sure Neutron 4 is on the master bus wth GulfossEQ and RX elements.
I have Sonarworks for headphones and Monitors  in the Control room rack with ADPTR Metric AB. This plugin allows you to AB with a refererence track and solo the sub, Bass, Low mid, hi mid and highs and i find that invaluable for getting that warmth in a song.
I have got my song that i am working on almost identical to the original mix.
The thing is i hope it now comes out the same when playing on all devices.
Onced fully mixed i will check on the monitors and re- check finally on headphones again.

After that, polish in Ozone 10 and  hope !!!!
Oh well Lee i am enjoying the learn curve  believe it or not.

All the best
john

[Lee Batchelor]

Wow, John...you're miles ahead of me!

I gave up recording once the Covid restrictions were lifted. I love hearing about your progress though. Sometimes it's not the "kill." It's the "hunt" that's fun. Thanks for the progress report.

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Lee
There is so much to delve into it would take two lifetimes to learn
I have got the noise floor down quite a bit now .
Tonight i went over some gain stage video's again.
The thing is that sometimes an orchestra can be louder than the drums at the gain stage level, so you have to push up the drum gain a little more and use volume a little to compensate .
As long as thing do not clip and remain in the sweetspot  ,why not! . There is not a hard and fast rule really.
I made a song of a few bars and use that to destruction to learn.
There is an Italian looking guy who does Cubase video's and he is great at explaining things.
So in a nutshell get that gain stage right and your on your way in no time.
By the time i have finished my latest song about three more Uk Prime  Ministers will probably be sacked!!


All the best
John

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Lee

Do not give up

I had a word today with  a Yamaha support guy uk.
I said to him that i get low gain and i cannot get it up!!
He laughed out loud and the penny dropped after being somewhat confused
I fell for that one!!

He said he uses a plugin from ik Multimedia Mixbox to get the gain for recording right.
I will have a look as i have Mixbox.
He also said that it is a problem  and you will have to use software to get in the ballpark.
You are absolutely right in saying that VST is so much better than the Genos and less problem for gain.
The Genos has styles and everything you need for ideas and i just like to get some quality out of the machine

Having a Focusrite box he suggested that i use the mic inputs at the front left and right or two mic inputs so to speak.
This way the Focusrite Scarlet 6i6  can be controlled from the monitor gain.
This would get you there.
That could make sense as that is what you would do if you had a guitar.

The next step for me after he also suggested is to have the EQ Flat and raise the gain on the genos EQ section.
if i raised that to full it would then theoretically get you to 23 luf's which then would be only 5 luf's away from the sweet spot for mixing.
This comes from support and he does know that the Genos has a low output gain.
So using software is the only way to get to 18 Luf's approximately.
It does make you think when you see quality demos from Yamaha!!.
It would be nice to have Yamaha explain the Genos gain and getting the best out of your machine.
There is a lot of things Yamaha could explain in plain English , But!
I also said to him about Genos 2/3 and he replied " I don't know what your talking about"!!

i have watched several gain staging video's and one stood out for me.
This way record your song and watch every track and just adjust the hot ones an adjust to near 18luf's.
If you made all tracks equal this will probably make the master bus over the top.
It should by according to experts only take abou 30 minutes to gain stage. It is just understanding it which takes the time.
Some instruments do not need to be 18 luf's as they are strong anyway and need to be lowered.
Having a recording from the Genos must be quite near a balanced song if done right , so your song must be somewhere near rather than live instruments which can be all powerful or weak..
It all comes down to ears in the mix before mastering .
The thing is,is to get a system going and that is where i am at. The ears are paramount.
I have done several mixes on the song that i am determined to get right and i am getting near to judging where i am at.
I know what the Genos can and cannot do now and now after my disussion with a Yamaha support guy ,i can now move on.
it is like riding a bike , once you get over a few bumps and bruises. Still got a few to go!!! ie, Windows  11 Lol!! flaming AS media drivers causing unknown devices!! Now fixed  after a 2 hour headache.

all the best
john

[Lee Batchelor]

Interesting stuff, John. I believe the Italian looking guy is Dom (spelling uncertain). He is a master. I've watched several of his videos.

If it puts your mind at ease and I'm sure you already know this, in listening to several so-called "professional mixes" from the top artists, the individual instrument gains are all over the map. One track sounds really good while the next one is either anemic or turns both subwoofers in my home theater system inside out! And then there is the variable of who is actually playing the recording. YouTube has its own compression level and yet their levels are all over the map. One video is hardly audible while the next one sends your monitor speaker woofers crashing into your forehead. Same with satellite radio. You could probably spend a year on a single track thinking you got it perfect, only to find out it sounds terrible on several systems.

It's not like the old days my friend, where vinyl was played on ordinary sound systems and always sounded roughly the same. I remember when Fleetwood Mac released their Rumors album. They had spent about $100,000 (U.S.) on its production and everyone thought they were insane because the top stars de jour were cranking out albums for $5,000 or less. The Rumors album was absolutely stellar. So what happened? We entered the digital age. Clicks, pops, and hiss were eliminated which gave rise to pristine recordings flooding the CD market. But there was a problem. It gave every Tom, Dick, and Harry the ability to do their own thing. Today, we have a patch work quilt of end results – some great others terrible – and yet nobody can actually define what an industry standard sound is!!

If I were you, I'd use those golden ears to produce the best mix you can and ignore the deep mathematics and graphs – although I can't blame you for wanting to "see" your musical results. I do the same thing when adjusting my home made speakers for room response. I figure if the curve "looks perfect" the sound will be perfect. Not always true. Sometimes the math and graphs lie because they can never account for the human perception of sound.

My friend was the chief speaker designer for Yorkville Sound in the 90s. He said they would design a speaker, measure it in the lab, adjust the crossover and driver placement for perfect acoustic phasing and STILL come up with a terrible sounding speaker. A lot of times they would use their ears to "tweak" the design. The frequency response graphs looked dismal but the speaker sounded much better.

So, grab yourself a pint, listen to your best mixing efforts and let yourself off the hook. The average Joe (or "bloke" in your verbiage) will never know the difference, unless of course he's listening to it over one of my speakers 🤣. Thanks for the great posts!

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Lee
Yo are exactly right as even the televison in UK is now not perfect on sound.
Sandra,my other often say's to me, am i going deaf, i have to turn the Tv up more.
I have also noticed this, but i personally do not watch general tv , only the news . I download films.
I think this new standard called Loudness units or LUF's are to blame.
if you make sounds that go over the standard of 12 to14 Luf's it gets turned down.
So many will percieve the inustry standard sound as a lower recording.
I also notice on tv that the adverts are always louder to make the public pay attention,ie, brainwashing.
I do think that tv broadcasting is terrible today even the standard of speech.
The broadcasting corporation have their own rules it seems and standards are out the window.
if you make songs in Cubase , there is a free program called loudness penalty and you can see if you will be turned down with various streamers.
If you decide to get going in Cubase  there is a great not expensive program called AB Metric and you can solo  the Sub, Bass, Low Mid, Hi Mid, and highs to a reference track and that puts you right in the ballpark. Like i said my song now virtually matches the original and maybe a little more rounded using today's digital equipment.
With Izotopes Neutron for mixing and Ozone 10 for mastering after the learn curve the recordings should be the best as you possible can achieve on whatever budget you are on. Both programs have intelligent listening to your tracks known as AI and that gets you in the ballpark.
So after getting used to AB Metric after while , it should be easier to achieve the same in Ozone10 as you have a liitle more deeper learning.
For me it is getting to understand what is going on inside these programs, but when it sinks in, it does.
it was interesting talking to yamaha support man as he agrees that only software can get you up on gain .
The Genos can only do so much and that needs to be addresed when a new Genos appears.
Also step recording your own style chords which you cannot at the moment.  You can do it with chord looper, but would be quicker to step them. i say this because fills do not alway land where you want them and you can miss one now and then. it would speed up workflow.
it does not matter live, just play because the average general public would not notice so much as we do. You can always cover your mistakes.
It is all interesting in my view and gives the brain something to keep it going in our later years.
I just want to achieve the best that i can and keep the brain active.
I wish i could say that about the aches and pains after lifting a plant pot!!


All the best
john

[Michael Trigoboff]

I got interested in this noise floor issue, so I decided to do an experiment. I played the same note into Cubase via digital and analog audio connections.

I recorded digital audio into Cubase from my Genos via the S/PDIF connection to my Focusrite Scarlett 8i6. I had the Genos' Digital Out Level set to +6 dB.

Then I recorded analog audio into Cubase from my Genos' Sub1/2 analog audio outputs to the 8i6's preamplified front panel inputs, which were set to LINE.

Judging by the track images, there does not seem to be a significant difference in the noise floors of these two .wav files, and the signal to noise ratio seems fine in both cases.

I've attached a .zip file containing the Cubase project, including the two .wav files.

I understand that I may somehow be missing the point of what has been discussed here so far. If that's the case, I'd be happy for the opportunity to learn something new and hear about what I don't understand yet.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[ton37]

Interesting stuff, John. I believe the Italian looking guy is Dom (spelling uncertain). He is a master. I've watched several of his videos.
..........
If it

Hi, it is: Dom Sigalas. He is a Music Producer and Film Composer based in London. To this day he has composed and produced music for films, television and radio commercials, documentaries, musicals, corporate video, video games, websites and hundreds of tracks of library music. He has done sound design for many award-winning companies worldwide and is also a highly acclaimed mixing and mastering engineer.
I have a hate/love relation with cubase and yamaha, not as 2 apart/standalone features, but to let them work together. It seems Yamaha intend to keep it as 2 products to sell, so a seamless integration is not their 'priority' at all.
Great vids from him .. 👍

[entertain70]

I am not sure I am responding accurately to your situation, but what I do is increase the audio output setting on the Genos to +6 or +12 dB when I am recording audio to Cubase. Then I adjust the sliders in the Genos Mixer and Cubase MixConsole to get the levels I need.

I am using a Focusrite Scarlet 8i6 with the S/PDIF digital audio output from the Genos.

Where can you adjust the audio output setting IN your Genos? I can't find this in the Menus. Thanks!

[Lee Batchelor]

I have a hate/love relation with cubase and yamaha, not as 2 apart/standalone features, but to let them work together. It seems Yamaha intend to keep it as 2 products to sell, so a seamless integration is not their 'priority' at all.

Agreed! I admire John and the others who have figured out how to record the Genos into Cubase. I've done it but I spent more time figuring out the signal path and workflow than actually recording a song 👿!

Yamaha REALLY needs to provide a seamless interface for recording directly to Cubase. I gave up because after spending 5 hours trying to get the process to the point it worked, I felt more like a circus animal actor than a musician!!

[ton37]

I see what you mean, @Lee. I can make (compose) everything with Cubase that I could do with the Genos. The reverse is not possible: the Genos cannot make everything that Cubase can. The difference is that one requires less workflow than the other. I think I misinterpret your definition of 'musician'? In my opinion, someone who composes in Cubase is just as much a musician as someone who plays a keyboard. ('Softsynth vs. Hardwaresynth')

[overover]

Where can you adjust the audio output setting IN your Genos? I can't find this in the Menus. Thanks!

Hi Joe,

The output volume level from the Genos [DIGITAL OUT] jack (S/PDIF) can be adjusted in "Menu > Utility > Speaker/Connectivity > Digital Out Level". See also the attached screenshot.


Best regards,
Chris

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[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Chris

Is there any difference between RCA output over SPDF
I hear there is not much difference
So you can increase the SPDF by +12db
You can do the same With flat EQ  and use also +12db
People should know that the Genos master volume is not a gain control.

This setting would get you to 23 Luf's.18Luf's roughly to get into the sweet spot for mixing.
It would be nice to get the gain for recording in Cubase a little higher quality level which gives a good bit of headroom for a wave file.
Up to now i use the Cubase gain.
Not too bad on strong instruments but others can be a pain after gain, because it always leaves a noise floor, hence needing a better gain level to start with.
I use  Izotope RX Elements to get rid of that at the moment, so not the end of the world.
The Yamaha support man i spoke to uses IK Multimedia software to get rid of his noisefloor.
This means it is something we will have to live with, with the current Genos if that comes from support.
If the genos had a 24db gain we would be there with bags of room.


All the Best
John:)

[Michael Trigoboff]

Where can you adjust the audio output setting IN your Genos? I can't find this in the Menus. Thanks!

You can't, as far as I know, for analog audio output from the Genos. Chris showed where to do it for digital audio output a few posts ago.

I used the preamplifiers in my Focusrite Scarlett 8i6 audio interface to boost the analog audio signal from the Genos to the level that I needed.

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Mike

You go to Utility on the Genos
Also there is a gain In the master section EQ . You have a +12db
So far M8 i can get up to 23 Luf's
If you use the pre -amp on the focusrite ,are you going though the mic/instrument inputs on the front.
The Yamaha guy suggested that as a possibility to get higher quality
Can you now doing that get to the mix gain stage  of 18 Luf's
!8 Luf's is suggested as this is where plugins operate best.

[Michael Trigoboff]

In my opinion, someone who composes in Cubase is just as much a musician as someone who plays a keyboard.

The difference is, how hard and for how long are you willing to hit your head against the wall of the learning curve that Cubase requires.

I was a software developer in my previous life, so I have professional level skills and tolerance for hitting my head against the wall. I imagine that many musicians don't have that level of interest and tolerance.

I have a very smart guitar player friend who can't even tolerate the learning curve for his simple foot pedal looper. I suspect he's a more typical musician than I am.

[Michael Trigoboff]

Not too bad on strong instruments but others can be a pain after gain, because it always leaves a noise floor, hence needing a better gain level to start with.

Can you mention a particular quiet/weak instrument that has this problem? I would like to experiment and see what this looks like.

Thanks...

[Michael Trigoboff]

If you use the pre -amp on the focusrite ,are you going though the mic/instrument inputs on the front.

That's what I did; front inputs. My 8i6 audio interface has no gain controls or preamps for any of the rear inputs.

When I was routing the analog audio into the rear inputs of the 8i6, the signal was way too weak to be useful.

I just learned about LUFs yesterday on this thread. I have not yet gotten to the point where I know how to measure them.