The Genos 2

[spaceair]

the arrival of the ketros event will require many updates in genos 2 

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi
I know that i have stuck resolutely with the Genos and if there is not a new one in the next 2 years it makes the Pax 5 look more desirable
Trade in a Genos here in UK and you could have a 76 note Korg Pax5 for £1500 .00
After another two years if a new Genos arrives there will be quite a bit of depreciation.
The Pax 5 has better strings and Synths and also piano than the Genos , but the saxes are a little harsh .
I found another demo on You Tube and the guy who was playing saxes  must of tweaked them and they sounded very good.
I would not be frightened of learning a new machine at 71 and there seems to be more bending towards 60s and 70s music rather than the older music which to me is played a lot. I am not saying it is bad music because it is nostalgic to many as 60s and 70s music is to me.
Older style music is good for dexterity and practice though. I do like songs like the Continental, but i do like songs like Red Right Hand from Nick Cave, the Peaky Blinders song and all the fun of 60,s70's and 80's. After that rubbish woke music in my view. 

What i would like to know first hand from owners of the Korg Pax 5 is how it performs with Cubase, Does it use Korg samples or is it just SF2 only. ??
The main thing, does it match up to the Genos in reality over good speakers and monitors.
How much control do you have shaping a sound??
Is there a program that goes with it to edit sounds on a computer and maybe more??

What my main concern with the Genos is that the print on the buttons is starting to wear off and that will look bad when you trade in for a new model. Every Genos will look like it has been played at thousands of gigs!!
In two years time it will be not worth a light. The Tyros will still be shining.

Any thoughts on what i am saying?
I just wish that Yamaha would stop messing about and get Genos 3 out before multitutes may jump ship.

What about a Modex or Montage  with a Ketron expander for styles???

On the other hand i have looked at a Korg forum and still there are moans there.
Do we stick with the devil we know???   and   save a couple of thousand quid ready for two years time??



All the best
John

[Jeff Hollande]

Hi John :

Apparently the PA5X needs a huge update that has been promised for December 2022.
I think it is not the right moment to buy one, unless you are willing to wait for the necessary update of December 2022.

On the other hand ... you are so familiar with a high end Yamaha arranger ( for so many years ), I think it might be risky to buy another brand with a complete different OS.

Most of us believe a Genos2 will be available as of 7/2023 or even earlier.

Best regards, JH

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Jeff
I am just commenting on on the pro's and Cons of this keyboard conumdrum
The print is wearing of the buttons For me only the start button slash has disappeared and numbers 1 and 2 on the registration buttons look thinner that the others. I am using the footpeddle more on these buttons for damage limitation.

I will stay with the Genos until next summer and see what happens as you are correct in saying that there are supposed to be big updates to the PAX5 in December so say.
I do like the sound of the Ketron and they have a SD90 expander with styles and sounds in. Put that with a Modex or Montage and that would be a belter of a keyboard setup


All the best
John .

[BogdanH]

I think, it's good to see, that some are at least considering other than Yamaha keyboard. Not that I think Yamaha is bad, it just makes the whole discussion more objective.
Speaking for me, I consider any brand that fits my needs and wishes -at the right price, of course. But it's really hard to decide. For example, my main complain about PSR-SX700 is bad keybed. But guess what: when I check in Korg forums, many Korg owners say Pa700 & Pa1000 (SX700/900 counterparts) have even worse. What a bummer... -ok, maybe they compare with new PSR-SX? 

And then, there are things that are hidden at first sight. Things that we can do on current keyboard (we take them as granted), but when we switch the brand, we realize it misses that (important to us) option. That is, we usually only pay attention on things, that we miss on our keyboard.
And finally, there's a familiarity factor: for our current keyboard, we just know how to do this and that. And we all know it takes a while until we get to this point. Switching to another brand usually means fresh start -something we're maybe afraid of.
There's also our collection of styles and voices, which becomes useless...
For Korg it's said, that one can make any possible adjustment directly on keyboard itself -there's no "expansion manager" needed. That's good. But that also increases user interface complexity -which usually means, steeper learning curve.

Because money is always a concern, we can't afford to simply "try and see". And so, to avoid the risk to be disappointed, we usually stick with the brand... unless competition has an offer we just can't refuse.

Just sharing my thoughts,
Bogdan

... Red Right Hand from Nick Cave

-have it in my collection 

[Jeff Hollande]

The print is wearing of the buttons For me only the start button slash has disappeared and numbers 1 and 2 on the registration buttons look thinner that the others.

Might that problem influence the seling price of a second hand Genos ?

JH

[BogdanH]

I'm pretty sure it does, Jeff. I mean, that's why you wash and polish your car before selling 

Bogdan

[Jeff Hollande]

Oh yeah ... a serious problem for Genos'sellers then, I guess.
Only time will tell what the price consequences are.

Regards, JH

[Lee Batchelor]

I can guarantee you that if you trade in a Genos with worn out or broken buttons, they can be repaired economically. The store would send that keyboard to the closest Yamaha repair center and have it fixed. Problem is, that loss will be passed on to us at a grossly marked up (or down depending on your point of view) amount of money. The store may even sell your used Genos "as is," but once again, we will take the hit for it.

I gigged the daylights out of every Tyros and PSR I owned. I would sometimes go days without dusting or cleaning the keyboards. Each time I traded them in, I was able to clean them up to near factory fresh condition. The Genos sound is among the best, but the build quality is garbage. Yamaha dropped the ball on this important detail. They have followed suit with every other company on the planet - with rare exception - and that is to put profitability ahead of quality. I never thought Yamaha would stoop that low, especially after being one of their prime customers for the past 30 years. I suppose you could say they haven't gotten cheap. They've just become fashionable - at least that's how they and others like them would rationalize their slip in quality.

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Lee
This is what worries me now that the quality of the Genos build has gone down.

[Lee Batchelor]

Thanks, John. It amazes me how Yamaha can produce ground-breaking samples but encase them in such a delicate container, when for pennies more, they could make the container just a robust as the earlier models without adding an extra amount of weight. The technology is there, however, the willingness is not. I blame that on the "new generation thinking" (or lack thereof). All the original Japanese managers have retired or died and left their legacy in the hands of overentitled amateurs. Yamaha is not the first Japanese company to have drifted into these rough waters.

I really hope they rethink the Genos 2 container and admit they dropped the ball on Genos 1.

[rphillipchuk]

Thanks, John. It amazes me how Yamaha can produce ground-breaking samples but encase them in such a delicate container, when for pennies more, they could make the container just a robust as the earlier models without adding an extra amount of weight. The technology is there, however, the willingness is not. I blame that on the "new generation thinking" (or lack thereof). All the original Japanese managers have retired or died and left their legacy in the hands of overentitled amateurs. Yamaha is not the first Japanese company to have drifted into these rough waters.

I really hope they rethink the Genos 2 container and admit they dropped the ball on Genos 1.

Well said !

[mikf]

Because money is always a concern, we can't afford to simply "try and see".........

We all have different circumstances, and can tend to project our own limitations onto other people. But money is not going to be an issue for many arranger players. Because, with trade ins the cost of changing might be just 2 or 3 thousand, and if you had the previous model for a few years, only equivalent to spending about $500 a hundred a year for your hobby. Not unusual in today's world. Ask a golfer what they spend annually on golf... dwarfs this.
I think the effort required for re-learning, the general hassle of change and how much the more recent improvements matter individually, might be bigger obstacles than the money for a lot of people.
I know I will not change because there is no equivalent to the CVPs in the Ketron and Korg range, but more because I really can't be bothered with the hassle. So the sax, or piano or the editing might be a tiny bit better .....so what, do those really make playing it that much better and worth the effort....not for me.
The money would be a very minor consideration if I really wanted to have the latest and greatest.  And I think that may be true for more people than you think Bogdan.
Now if I was still gigging and the current keyboard was unreliable, or had annoying limitations, my position might be different. Or if I was heavily into recording and music production, again my view of feature and performance limitations  might be different and a big driver, despite the hassle. But truth is, despite the preponderance of posts here covering these shortcomings on the Yamaha, these actually represent quite a small proportion of arranger players.
Mike

[Lee Batchelor]

All good points. Mike. With regard to the core voices like piano, e.piano, and organs - they should be top of the line in such an expensive arranger. It's unacceptable for the marketing people to sit back and say, "We're giving them top of the line wind, brass, and strings so it's all right to skimp on the core voices."

I'm good friends with Shania Twain's piano player from years ago. He's also been my teacher on occasion. He once said, "If you sound lousy on stage, you won't play well." Here I have the best arranger on the planet, two of the best speakers, and some of the best venues - and yet, there are times I can't a decent piano sound. Sure, it's sometimes the fault of the room and background noise, but I'll never get a decent sound with substandard pianos.

Don't get me wrong. The Genos pianos are not unusable. They are, however, poor for what we're being asked to pay. Nord fixed this issue years ago in their Electro series by adding 1 GB of memory dedicated to the pianos. Why not Yamaha? What would it cost?

[mikf]

Like I said Lee, I might have a different view if I was gigging, as you do. Having said that though, where I would disagree with your teacher is that I played much worse pianos than the Genos when I was gigging, and think I played pretty well. I think a more correct statement might be that you won't be happy playing, if you feel the equipment is sub standard compared to available alternatives.
But nowadays, not gigging, if I want a better piano I just walk down to my drawing room where I have a Shigeru which has amazing tone and feels like playing on silk. But I don't always do that because then I can't turn on the backing band! Nothing is perfect.
Mike

[BogdanH]

..All the original Japanese managers have retired or died and left their legacy in the hands of overentitled amateurs. Yamaha is not the first Japanese company to have drifted into these rough waters...

Not sure if it's because of "amateurs" -I tend to think it's all about fast profit and greed. And so, "Made in ..." label means nothing nowadays. Similar is true for brand name, which is many times only a deceiving factor.

..amateurs... hahaha, you really made me laugh Lee -you earned a beer for that 

Bogdan

[mikf]

Bogdan, I worked at high levels in corporate America, and never once saw 'fast profit and greed' being a driver.
You all seem to have a picture of top executives sitting around looking at how customers can be shortchanged so the the executives/ shareholders can hugely benefit. It just isn't like that. The drivers are things like survival, market expectations, Wall Street expectations, competitors strategies , correcting earlier mistakes.....Yamaha profits are actually pretty trivial compared to companies like Apple. But even Apple spent a lot of time 'on the ropes', hanging on to survival.
Mike

[Lee Batchelor]

All good stuff, guys.

I guess I'm thinking about the post WWII era when the Japanese companies first released their products to North America in the 50s and 60s. I remember the common feeling was "all the cheap junk comes out of Japan." If you want quality, you buy American. That was true until the 70s.

In the 70s, if you wanted quality and innovation, you bought Japanese. They improved all the American technologies of the day and produced the very best products on the planet. People in my generation got used to that until those original Japanese execs retired or died and left their legacy to a whole different mindset. If the old fellas and gals from Japan could do it, the current people should be able to do it better because they aren't picking up the pieces from a world war, and they have an exceptional technological advantage. Tell me what's holding them back 😀. I bet I know...the thirst 🍺 for $$$$$$$$$$$$$.

[Amwilburn]

Korg is soon coming with the new Korg PX5. The last time when  Korg brought the PX4 on the market. Not long after Genos apeared.
rgds
Wim

Depends on your definition of "not long after". The Pa4x appeared in Western Canada in May of 2015, the Genos in Dec of 2017. I wouldn't consider 2.5 years soon, per se. But I also don't think Yamaha will wait as long this time; we might get a stopgap update of the sx700/sx900 (like an sx705/sx905) update approx 1.5 years before the next Genos (that's how I correctly guessed when the Genos *was* coming; the stopgap upgrade to the PSRs970, the s975, launched in April of 2018. 1,5 years before Genos was announced. The last time there was a stopgap (PSR2000/2100) the 2100 ended up being 1.5 years before the Tyros 1 was announced.

Bogdan, I worked at high levels in corporate America, and never once saw 'fast profit and greed' being a driver.

Mike, mostly true, until Boeing was taken over by McDonell-Douglas management, which gave us the 737Max disasters. As a huge fan of the F15 (but why on earth was the F15E strike eagle pressed into a fighter bomber role, when the variable geometry Grumman F14 was *right there*), F18, and AV8 Harrier, i can't express just how disappointed I was. Of *course* pitot tubes get clogged @$!@%!@$. What cockamanie coders thought they wouldn't???

...For example, my main complain about PSR-SX700 is bad keybed. But guess what: when I check in Korg forums, many Korg owners say Pa700 & Pa1000 (SX700/900 counterparts) have even worse. What a bummer... -ok, maybe they compare with new PSR-SX? 
*snip*
There's also our collection of styles and voices, which becomes useless...

I can confim, PA700/1000 keys feel a lot like PSRe keys. PSRsx keys, *do* feel nicer, but the clicking is a really weird issue. However, PA4x/PA5x keys feel amazing (better than Genos, imo). But as I've stated before, I *need* my custom styles and registrations. Which means I'll always have a Yamaha (or 6)... doesn't mean I won't get something else in addition.

Incidentally, the PSRe473 keys feel better than the other PSRe keys.

Mark

[mikf]

The same thing ultimately happened to Japanese companies that hurt the American companies - their labor costs became high compared to their neighbors in China and Korea, so they started outsourcing the manufacturing to them.
Interestingly the huge improvement in Japanese manufacturing quality though the 50s  and 60s was mostly driven not by the Japanese themselves but by an American called Edwards Deming. I guess you could say Japanese management top down were smart enough to buy into his theories and make it almost into a religion. I went to several courses myself on Demings theories on quality systems.   
Mike

[BogdanH]

Bogdan, I worked at high levels in corporate America, and never once saw 'fast profit and greed' being a driver.
...

I believe you. I can't strictly tell for US companies, but my observation in general is, those (good!) companies that weren't profit motivated enough, ceased to exist. For many that still exist (pick any US consumer electronic brand), the only solution was, to buy asian products and rebrand them. I have nothing against chinese products (far from that!). The problem is, that many times, when we buy such rebranded product, it's usually the cheapest chinese product they could get -to make max profit.
Medeli AK10 keyboard is an example of solid product for the price asked. It's an rare exception that chinese company decided to market the product directly. What do you think, how much would it cost, if it would be rebranded by i.e. Electro Voice?

...I can confim, PA700/1000 keys feel a lot like PSRe keys...

-thank you for confirming, Mark . Ok, PSR keybed (when new) actually isn't bad -the problem is how it degrades over short period of time.

Sometimes I think, that I maybe just expect too much... I mean, there's a reason why PSR isn't ranked as TOTL keyboard. And because I can't afford better, I think I need to learn to accept the reality.

Bogdan

[Jeff Hollande]

Hey Bogdan :

A nice second hand high end arranger might be a very good solution.
A new one will cost a customer at least US$ 5,500 - 6,000,--. 
A lot of money in these uncertain times.

Best wishes, JH

[mikf]

My observation from working with Chinese's companies is that they are capable of producing high quality if you and they are both committed to it. The onus is on companies like Yamaha to invest the effort into working with their Chinese suppliers to achieve this, so they get best of both worlds, lower costs and high quality.
I had a close friend who had a small business in the USA supplying Chinese equipment to oil companies. The prices were great but quality was poor. He dedicated almost 3 years of his life, traveling to China, working with not just his supplier, but their suppliers, to get the quality up. It finally paid huge dividends when he was able to match Western quality at lower prices. He became incredibly wealthy in the next few years when demand for his products rocketed. Savvy business sense, not greed.
Mike

[BogdanH]

hi Jeff,
I have nothing against buying used keyboard. But the thing is, even used TOTL keyboards are quite expensive -way above new midrange keyboard (unless it's 10+ years old). In short, if I can only afford new midrange keyboard, then that means I can only buy another midrange keyboard (new or used). Let me explain: once TOTL Tyros4 was a great keyboard, still I wouldn't trade my SX700 for it -and if my thinking is wrong, so be it.

Price difference (new or used) between TOTL and midrange is just to big for many. But I'm not whining about being glued to midrange class: technically, these keyboards cover all my needs and playing skills. I just hate being disappointed by bad quality. And at the end, no matter what we have, we always wish for better 

Bogdan

[Jeff Hollande]

This is what worries me now that the quality of the Genos build has gone down.

Yamaha's reaction ?
A production defect ?
Guarantee ?

JH

[EileenL]

My Genos still looks good after five years. All I do is wipe it over with a damp cloth and dry off with micro fibre cloth once a week. It has been gigged with and then had a lot of home use.

[Lee Batchelor]

My Genos still looks good after five years. All I do is wipe it over with a damp cloth and dry off with micro fibre cloth once a week. It has been gigged with and then had a lot of home use.

Good to hear, Eileen. Sadly, your experience is not shared by all. I think there are as many ways people handle and treat their Genos keyboards as there stars above. Previous arrangers by Yamaha all seemed to hold up very well. I can tell you the Genos is NOT as robust as its predecessors. I'm doing nothing different to my Genos that I hadn't done to all my previous Yamaha keyboards, and yet this one is not holding up like the others. Between my current issue with registrations and the poor build quality, I may look at other makes when the time comes.

[Toril S]

It is prone to marks on the black finish, but has no other issues.

[pjd]

My observation from working with Chinese's companies is that they are capable of producing high quality if you and they are both committed to it. The onus is on companies like Yamaha to invest the effort into working with their Chinese suppliers to achieve this, so they get best of both worlds, lower costs and high quality.
Mike

Gotta agree with Mike WRT Yamaha in particular.

Even though many people are aware of Yamaha's golf club business (and laugh about it), most people don't know that Yamaha manufacturers its own printed circuit board (PCB) assembly equipment and sell it to others.

I can just about guarantee that where Yamaha build, own and operate a factory, they are using their own equipment and processes. That includes factories outside Japan. They don't just make manufacturing arrangements/plans willy-nilly.

All the best -- pj