How do I play a G/A in "AI Fingering"

[Fred Smith]

I am not referring to the AI ability to deduce chords the chord by rh  notes, but simply the fact that the harmony note is already being played, so there is little or no gain in  the effect if adding it also in the lh chord. Doesn't matter if it is AI mode or not.  That would not be true for a slash chord where the effect is from the bass, but it's largely true for extended chords.

I disagree.

Suppose the melody note is A, and the chord is C6. You're saying there's no difference between play a C chord, or a C6 chord. But there is a difference. A C6 chord provides a fuller sound.

Cheers,
Fred

[mikf]

Fred - I dont disagree with you that it sometimes can make a difference to the sound and players should take account of that. Might depend on whether you have a left hand voice on or the construction of the style. And certainly no reason not to double up on notes where you think it makes a difference to the fullness of the sound. But its horses for courses and bear in mind I was giving advice here to someone who is very much a novice and getting himself tied in knots about fancy chords - what they mean and how to play them. He is probably months - or maybe years - away from worrying about this. 
For myself I play 6th and 7th chords all the time almost as a matter of course, for the sound it provides, even if the melody notes doubles up, or when not actually called for by the music. But probably would not bother too much with 9ths and 11ths especially where the melody covered it because that seldom makes a noticeable difference. The flattened extensions I find make a big difference though and I usually try to catch those, although often in the rh rather than the lh. Being a two handed player makes most of these extended chords much easier to handle. 
Mike

[overover]

@janamdo
Hi Jan,

for better understanding, I have edited my post above.


Best regards,
Chris

[janamdo]

@janamdo
Hi Jan,

for better understanding, I have edited my post above.


Best regards,
Chris

Hi Chris,

I noticed it already your inprovements.
I seems to me that you first came up with piano voicing with rh and lh example without acmp
As second example using the acmp with ai fingered chords 
Best regards
Jan

[janamdo]

I can see that with playing the melody with different chords that doubling notes can occur
If i play a C triad (C-E-G )  with a B melody note  i hear a Cmaj7 chord

So you could notate this as a C  triad too , but  if you play the  Cmaj7 together with a B melody note , then it sounds different , because the B is doubled.

[andyg]

The musical theory behind not needing to double notes is sound and, if you dig into it, the 'rules' are quite complex as to what is 'right' or 'wrong'.

But in practice, and especially when related to playing arranger keyboard (or indeed it's 'daddy', the home organ) doubling of notes happens all the time and it does actually add quite a bit to the sound. It's also worth remembering that the doubled note in the melody is often just passing, whereas the chord may be held for a bar or more.

[tyrosman]

hi all AI is great and all you have to do is have alook at chord tutor on board it explains it there also i think people make it hard for themselfs when it is very easy to use i remember Richard bower showing me the easy way of AI and this can be found on the net also like andy says Jacki marsden done it in yamaha club magazine 

[janamdo]

Thanks
Now i have found the jacki marsden pdf from 2005.

[janamdo]

i think people make it hard for themselfs when it is very easy to use i remember Richard bower showing me the easy way of AI and this can be found on the net also like andy says Jacki marsden done it in yamaha club magazine 

That's the benefit of the AI fingering ofcourse: its easier for playing chords on the ACMP
But there is no info of all ins and outs of the AI fingering
Although there is a book Styles & Patterns

[theoutlaws]

with the left hand G as a bass tone
and take the right hand for the normal  A chord
that´s it!

[Fred Smith]

with the left hand G as a bass tone
and take the right hand for the normal  A chord
that´s it!

Except G/A is a G chord with an A bass, not A chord G bass. And how does it work if chording in the right hand doesn't fit the melody?

Cheers,
Fred

[BartW]

I found, through trial and error, this way to play the G/A which also is pretty ergonomic and suitable for players with smaller hands.

So the way I think about it is naturally A in the bass. Then A# (which may be the "trigger" note letting the computer know that this meant to be a slash chord), and then simply G in 1st inversion.

This logic seems to work for all slash chords: Play bass with the pinky along with half step up from bass note, and then with remaining 3 fingers, play the main chord in 1st inversion.

I have the Genos set-up in AI Fingered.

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[PhotoDoc05]

BartW, and Dromeus,
Thanks for the tip!  Yes, using First inversion is a very good point for AI Fingered.

Gmaj  --- BDG
G/D    --- DG
G/B    --- BG
G/A    ---  AA#BDG

Works exactly like that on SX-900. A little awkward for G/A, but that's how it works.
Jerry

[janamdo]

Thanks
Works the same as for the SX600.
But this chord G/A and with some other bass notes not belonging to the triad G , makes this musical sense for the ACMP ?
Yes, i do see here a songexample of a descending bass chord progression as a AI chord exercise 
The bass is descending from C - B- A-G- F  in a serie of chords with bass notes not belonging to the chords
C-C/B -Am-Am/G-F- D/ F#-G-G7/F

Note: C/B needs only note c and below note B, why is C/A so difficult ?..no its different in the example:  C/B is CM7/B
But that is also good a Ctriad with a addded seventh note
Jan

[panos]

For the sheettwriter to use an G/A chord seems that he wants to create tension and the next chord will be release or a "walking" bass or something.
If I am not mistaken,when a whole orchestra(or band) involved (as it happens with the styles),
usually G is the chord that the orchestra will play, while only the bass player will play the A note.
In which piece of music did you see that chord type so maybe we can understand why he is using the G/A symbol?

All types, either G/A or Gsus2 or Gadd9 (A note=2nd note or 9th note in the scale of G) are telling you that you will need the A note along with two notes of the G chord at least.

Maybe the sheet music indicates that the left hand is playing just the two notes G3 and A2 which is not even a chord but just a part of some chord (In that case we have to replace this part with an actual chord type that sounds good).

In any case, I wouldn't worry in your place if I would see the G/A or any other "weird" chord name.
Just look what are the notes of the left hand are if it is a piano sheet, what are the notes of the melody and of course use your eras.
The important thing is not to create disharmony for no reason.

[janamdo]

In which piece of music did you see that chord type so maybe we can understand why he is using the G/A symbol?

Thanks
It was a question from someone else ( see first post )
But a descending bass with the AI fingering can be done with two fingers , but there is then no freedom of choosing a own chord
CM7/B - B/A-A/G-G/F- FM7/E-E/D-D/C....

[maartenb]

C/B needs only note c and below note B, why is C/A so difficult ?

Because the notes a - c would be interpret as Am.



This is the way I look at the chord modes:

Fingered mode is based on musical notes played. The ACMP interprets every played note as part of the chord and/or bass.

• Pros: It's easy to play, because you can use chord inversions and therefore your hand doesn't need to jump around as much. You can play the exact left hand notes on a piano and it will sound musically correct.
• Cons: Some songs played this way will sound different from the original, when a song uses slash chords.

Fingered on Bass mode is still based on musical notes played.

• Pros: You can play some slash chords and sound more like the original song. You can still play the exact left hand notes on a piano and it will sound musically correct.
• Cons: Your hand has to move more when you play non-slash chords in succession.

AI Fingered mode is a combination of musical notes and "instructional" notes played. Sometimes notes are meant to be part of the chord and/or bass, and sometimes they are only meant to give the ACMP an instruction (and therefore make no musical sense).

• Pros: You can play chord inversions and most slash chords. You can also play additional chords that are impossible with the other two modes. You will not have the same musical freedom as an organ, but you do have the most freedom possible on a keyboard.
• Cons: A bit harder to learn, because you have to learn the "instructional" notes. You canNOT use the exact left hand notes on a piano, since the instructional notes are not meant to be played with a sound.

Maarten

[maartenb]

why is C/A so difficult ?

I am just very grateful that I can play a C/A chord at all!

As far as I know, C/A is impossible to play on other brand keyboards.


Maarten

[mikf]

Arrangers have limitations, and you can't do everything. The AI mode is a way to remove some of the limitations, but it still can't do everything and there are definite trade offs. That is not unique to arrangers, all musical instruments have limitations, - try playing bagpipes!
Mike 

[PhotoDoc05]

Because the notes a - c would be interpret as Am.



This is the way I look at the chord modes:

Maarten,
Thanks, I like the way you have categorized the chord modes, but still a little puzzled by "instructional" notes to the ACMP.
Could you give us an example to explain what instructional notes do, a little further?
Jerry

[janamdo]

Hoi Maarten

Bedankt voor je uitleg

Laat ons even zien wat er zoal mogelijk is met de AI fingering en hoe je er tegen aan moet kijken

Jan

[maartenb]

Could you give us an example to explain what instructional notes do, a little further?

Hi Jerry,

Five examples:

• Cancel chord (i.e. c-c#-d or a#-b-c (notes from left to right))
  Plays a crash cymbal and stops all harmonic tracks (only drums and percussion keep running). These three notes make little musical sense.
• C/E (e-c)
  The instructional note is the missing g. The non-bass harmonic style tracks will play as if you had played with the g note.  Same for C/G.
• C/Bb (b(flat)-c)
  The instructional notes are the missing e and g notes. The style will play as if you pressed them.
• F/G (g-g#-a-c-f)
  g-g#-a instruct the ACMP to play a g bass note and combined with c and f instruct the other harmonic style tracks to play an F chord. The g# in this case is an instructional note and not heard in the style.
• "C/C" (c-e-g-c)
  "C/C" is not an existing chord, but I use the notation here to indicate that the extra c note (called "doubling" or "octaving"(?)) instructs the bass to play a c note and only a c note. You will hear this only with styles with a moving or walking bass line, for example Jazz styles. On the Genos, take ClassicBigBand for example. The bass plays with a C chord (c-e-g): |c c g g|c c e g| (repeat). However, when you double the c note, the bass will play: |c c c c|c c c c|, which can be very useful in some situations. Although the extra c is musically correct, I do see it as an instructional note.

Maarten

[maartenb]

Hi Maarten

Thanks for your explanation

Show us what is possible with the AI fingering and how one should look at it

Jan

Hi Jan,

Since this is an English forum, please keep your posts in English. Then we can all benefit and respond to your question.


AI fingering is a clever way to enable you to play chords that would otherwise be very difficult or impossible to play.


Maarten

[PhotoDoc05]

Hi Maarten,
Thanks for that great explanation! Makes good sense,
Cheers,  Jerry

[theoutlaws]

the easiest way to do this, is to use two hands:

left hand > for the tone A (perhaps an octave)
right hand > for the chord G-major

that´s it.....

[Fred Smith]

the easiest way to do this, is to use two hands:

left hand > for the tone A (perhaps an octave)
right hand > for the chord G-major

that´s it.....

And where do you play the melody?

Cheers,
Fred

[Toril S]

We need at least four hands, would be great😀

[janamdo]

Hi Jan,


AI fingering is a clever way to enable you to play chords that would otherwise be very difficult or impossible to play.


Maarten

Thanks
Is it with the multi- finger chord mode it doesn't matter what chordshape you play ..they are all sounding the same
Example : a C triad and his two inversions sounds the same.

Is it with the AI- fingering mode that it does matter what chord shape is played ?
So A C triad and his two inversions are all three different sounding.

Then in AI fingering mode playing chords not possible in other  fingering chord modes 

[andyg]

As I've often said, AI Fingered Mode is 'transparent' to normal chords, so you can play a C chord as C E G, E G C or G C E (the most useful inversion). You could even play it in open harmony as C G E, if your hand span is wide enough! AI doesn't mind how you do it, so you play the same notes in your chords as you would in Multifinger mode.

AI effectively only 'switches on' when you play something like C/G or a 'rootless' chord. Rootless? E Bb D will give you C9, and F B E will give you G13, for example. And if you want some exotics, take the opening chords of Somdheim's "The Ladies Who Lunch" from the musical "Company". F6/9 alternates with Cm9/F. Playing F G A C D, alternating with F Bb D Eb works well for this, though the fingering is tricky - 5 3 1 2, with 2nd crossing over thumb to play the Eb!

Maarten's F/G is a wee bit too complex for most players. If you just play G A F, you'll get F*/G. Not 100% accurate musically but close enough 99% of the time, and this type of chord has been regularly used by my high level students in their Diploma exams. If it's good enough to satisfy the sharp ears of the top level examiners, it should be OK for all the rest of us!

[janamdo]

I was not clear enough i think
In AI mode you could play a inversion with two notes : root + 3th +5th  (C triad)
Also the same as in the multi- fingered mode, but there is no difference in sound for a C triad.

I tested with AI- fingering and i made also no difference in sound, so it is the same situation as with the multi-fingering , it doesn't matter for the sound
For Ai-fingering it matters only the way of playing the chord