Sound comparison Tyros versus Genos

[Kaarlo von Freymann]

 Hi Everybody, 
It is claimed we Scandinavians are an irreverent bunch. A few of you you may have heard of the Danish fairy tale "The
Emperor's New Clothes", some may have seen in the news how the Finnish female president straightened president Bush's tie.
(She was rightly heavily criticized for that) So please forgive me for attaching two audio files for your consideration as hearing is
believing. Any comments are highly appreciated.

Cheers

Kaarlo

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Kaarlo von Freymann]

Sorry,
only one attachment arrived at its destination,  here hopefully comes the second.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[soundphase]

Hello

I played this very difficult and interesting game.

I agree that difference is very difficult to hear, but the player is very good and it would be perhaps easier to hear differences with a slowler score.

Nevertheless, my guess :
Genos starts until 00 mn :52 s
Then Tyros until :1 mn : 04 s
Then Genos until 1 mn : 29 s
Then Tyros until 1 mn : 43 s
Then Genos

What I called "Genos sound" seems to me a little more metallic, bright with a better bass and natural reverb.

Perhaps I'm totally wrong, and all the score is played by Genos, or all is played by Tyros .... Nevermind, if I'm ridiculous :-)

Soundphase

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Kaarlo
The differences can also be how they are recorded.
How did you get such a quality clear high end or louder  recording at such a low volume which I listened to on my Internet computer. Also that is only a realtec card inside . I use Focusrite Scarlet on my main music one. I maintain as they say, If It sounds good on a cheap system you are there on a great system
This is something I have been striving for. Even limiting and compressing the hell out of a lemon has not worked.
The Genos Is much more sharper than the Tyros , but that does not mean to say warmer.
The Genos needs more tweaking In my view and can reach a higher quality if worked on.
That is all down to getting used to this Instrument
I would like to know how you got such a high level recording and mp3 at that.
This is what I want to achieve . Also nice resonating piano.
You must have a good Argon Accumulator.

All the best
John

[soryt]

I hear differences in the harmonics , but it is also a real stacato song .
If you for example a balad song with long holds and release the difference wil be more clear .
there are so many ways to fine tune the sounds on the Genos and Tyros that it comes very close to each other , but there is a real difference out of the box .
many players plays "out of the box' and some are tweaking a lot , but the Genos has a lot more improvements than only the Cfx piano's

Soryt 

[vbdx66]

Hi Karloo,

Nice performance but what is the point of comparing the Genos and the Tyros 5 only as far as the piano sound is concerned? If you play mostly piano, a Clavinova or any decent digital piano will be better for piano playing stricto sensu anyway.

What would be more interesting, comparison wise, would be to play the same song with the same styles and the same voices, at the same tempo, with a fully-fledged arrangement, and let people guess whether version A or version B was played on the Tyros 5 or the Genos, or which parts of the same recording, like you did here for A Train.

After all, when you buy an arranger keyboard, you buy it for its great sounding sounds and rhythms, not just for the piano sound, don't you? So the question really is: which keyboard is better for arranging tunes: the Tyros 5 or the Genos?

Just my two cents,

Best Regards,

Vinciane

[Kaarlo von Freymann]

Hi Kaarlo

1 The differences can also be how they are recorded.

2 How did you get such a quality clear high end or louder  recording at such a low volume which I listened to on my Internet computer.

2 The Genos Is much more sharper than the Tyros , but that does not mean to say warmer.

3 The Genos needs more tweaking In my view and can reach a higher quality if worked on.

4 That is all down to getting used to this Instrument

5 I would like to know how you got such a high level recording and mp3 at that.
   This is what I want to achieve . Also nice resonating piano.

6 You must have a good Argon Accumulator.

All the best
John

Thanks for your very good points. 

1
Yes, how you record does affect the sound. We used the best we had available, digital all the way. And as a fact converting the recorded digital WAV to digital MP3  on the PC using NCH  audio editing software did destroy the slight difference we were able to hear on WAV.  We did not want to do the original recording in MP3 as we were afraid it would so what it did, blur the difference.  As a fact to me MP3 is a no no. All my demo CDs I send to people contemplating to give me a gig are WAV.
With sound it is like with wine tester terminology, hard to find really good words. We felt the Genos was  a little "arier", would say  like the difference in your bedroom when you wake up and then open the window for a minute. But our main point was to show, any difference in sound quality is so minimal that in a performance situation it will not be discernible.

In this case it was just a comparison switching while playing from using one sound= voice file installed on the Genos,  SFX piano to another installed on the Genos voice file, the Tyros Grand Piano.

2
The recording was done from the digital output of the Genos. As with digital outputs in general, output it is not affected by output potentiometer position.  It is (surprisigly) ok to use any high quality RCA  cable to the Tascam digital recorder SS CD R 1 which fortunately as it is intended for studio use unlike many digital recorders does provide a "digital in volume" adjustment in addition to a "digital out" volume adjustment. The level from the Genos was at something like  - 20 dB so  the Tascam was adjusted to a higher  input level in order not to have to process the result recorded to the card.

3
It is true you can tweak sounds,  treble and bass, effects  etc.  In this case nothing was done because I believe keyboards should give their best without tweaking, that's the manufactures duty. And once you start doing that in a comparison you break the rules governing testing procedures.  I was some 30 years ago involved in consumer goods testing and just as an example, if you test washing machine noise level you must make sure everything else is equal, filling degree, filling material location etc.

4
Very good point,  I am used to the Steinway grand (1922 model ) I inherited. And as Steinway says, not one Steinway sounds exactly like the others. And typically I feel mine has the best sound as I have heard it consciously for nearly 8 decades. 

6
You overestimate my knowledge,   I do not have the sligtest idea of what a  Argon Accumulator is. I only know Argon is a non reactive gas.

I am vary happy you made your post,  I have made quite a few that did attract up to 150 readers but nobody felt they were worth or possible to reply to.  Maybe because they were about less wonderful procedures when using the Genos like changing just one instrument in a midi file needing 17 steps.

Cheers

Kaarlo

[EileenL]

I really do not see the point of all these comparisons of one keyboard to another. You buy what you consider is best for you. Genos is the best arranger keyboard to be released so far. It is easier to use and quicker in many cases.
  To me this is the best way to hear the voices.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=828Zv3wcvrg
 

[Kaarlo von Freymann]

Hi Karloo,

Nice performance but what is the point of comparing the Genos and the Tyros 5 only as far as the piano sound is concerned? If you play mostly piano, a Clavinova or any decent digital piano will be better for piano playing stricto sensu anyway.

What would be more interesting, comparison wise, would be to play the same song with the same styles and the same voices, at the same tempo, with a fully-fledged arrangement, and let people guess whether version A or version B was played on the Tyros 5 or the Genos, or which parts of the same recording, like you did here for A Train.

After all, when you buy an arranger keyboard, you buy it for its great sounding sounds and rhythms, not just for the piano sound, don't you? So the question really is: which keyboard is better for arranging tunes: the Tyros 5 or the Genos?

Just my two cents,

Best Regards,

Vinciane

Thank you very much Vinciane, not two cents but very relevant.  You are 100 % right. I intend to do that when I finally master the 17 steps needed to  tweak a midi file in Genos.  All the files I have are tweaked for Tyros and they do not sound good on Genos.   Why a midi file ?  Because only then you can employ all the different instruments and make a perfect song like all manufacturers do their demo-songs to really see what the instrument is capable of.  I am not able to do a lot of button pushing when playing to styles and then the number of voices presented is definitely very limited.

Cheers

Kaarlo

[EileenL]

A true comparison can only be done fairly by sitting and playing Tyros 5 and then Genos recorded into the Audio recorder and then listening to the recording from that. It will give a truer picture than using a midi file.

[tyrosaurus]

The recording was done from the digital output of the Genos. As with digital outputs in general, output it is not affected by output potentiometer position.

Just for information, page 145 of the Genos Reference Manual says that the output volume level from the [DIGITAL OUT] jack can be adjusted by the 'Digital Out Level' setting on the 'Speaker/Connectivity' page of the 'Utility' menu.

Press [MENU] > touch 'Menu 2' > 'Utility' > 'Speaker/Connectivity' > 'Digital Out Level'


Regards

Ian

[panos]

I have read in posts that earlier models have more "sweet" preset voices than the next models.
That means to me that they were many more effects involved in preset voices than it is now.
Someone may like this,but someone may not.
I think is easier (at least to me) to add effects to a voice that is kind of flat,
than trying to find out in first place,which effects are present there to disable them
and then add the effects as YOU like (and not to the liking of the engineer's ears).
When a sound is called "sweet trumpet" or "sweet soprano sax",ok I can accept the "sweetness" and the "smoothness" of that sound.
But if you do this to all sounds, does it really work no matter what genre of music are you playing,what style, in which tempo,whith which voice will you assembly that sound, etc.?

If we are looking for a great piano sound on a Genos or a Tyros I believe we are looking at the wrong place as Vinciane said.
What about the rest 1651 voices,the 58 drumkits,the 358 dsp's effect,550 reworked styles,the 458 multipads etc, of Genos? 
They mean nothing after all?

[Kaarlo von Freymann]

I really do not see the point of all these comparisons of one keyboard to another. You buy what you consider is best for you. Genos is the best arranger keyboard to be released so far. It is easier to use and quicker in many cases.
  To me this is the best way to hear the voices.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=828Zv3wcvrg

Hi Eileen,

Thanks for  posting about this.  I have several times posted questions read by many but left without any answer.

Honestly, I expected some on the site to say "I really do not see the point of all these comparisons of one keyboard to another." 
I am afraid you may be right and it  may very well be the afternoon my friend and I spent making the recording was time spent in vain. The result just confirmed that my hearing is not as bad as it very well might be. The deteriorated hearing of us old people has been a valid point on this site.

"The point of all these comparisons" is that there are those like Abby and me  - and hopefully some others also - who do want to evaluate products by comparing price and features and make a cost/benefit analysis, an attitude manufacturers and anyone strongly connected to them  - like for instance dealers who carry just one line - of course dislike and try to eradicate by massive hype. 
I was on the board of an advertising agency for 30 years so how to make people buy something and all the hidden venues to use for that purpose are not completely unknown to me. 

Cheers

Kaarlo

[EileenL]

Hi Kaarlo,
The people I am talking to are buying Genos because they like what they hear and prefer very much a touch screen. On my little forum I must say a lot of my members have gone over to Genos from Tyros 5. They also like that it is lighter to gig with, has in built Expansion Memory thus saving around £300 for having to buy one.
  Yes there is a slightly different learning curve but it dose not take long to come to grips with it. One thing I I I know now is that I would not part with mine.

[Pianoman]

Come on Guys,

There is no need for the defensive but, but, but, buts, every time a subject like this
or such a test comes along.

It should be viewed for what it is, something educative.
It is also essential to always keep an open mind

Kaarlo and his friend took the time and trouble to make this demo, and I think
we should maybe appreciated that.

We may look upon it as a quiz, a hearing test, or whatever reason we may choose.

If I understood correctly, Kaarlo and his friend recorded a song while alternating
between a Genos piano and a T5 piano.

He is now asking us here to identify which piano has been used in which part of
that song.

That should be simple for those who know, or have played either one of these
instruments at one time or another.

Why don't we keep things simple and say we do know, or we don't know.

After all, the question seemed very reasonable, simple, and straightforward.

Best Regards.
Abby.

[soundphase]

Come on Guys,

There is no need for the defensive but, but, but, buts, every time a subject like this
or such a test comes along.

It should be viewed for what it is, something educative.
It is also essential to always keep an open mind

Kaarlo and his friend took the time and trouble to make this demo, and I think
we should maybe appreciated that.

We may look upon it as a quiz, a hearing test, or whatever reason we may choose.

If I understood correctly, Kaarlo and his friend recorded a song while alternating
between a Genos piano and a T5 piano.

He is now asking us here to identify which piano has been used in which part of
that song.

That should be simple for those who know, or have played either one of these
instruments at one time or another.

Why don't we keep things simple and say we do know, or we don't know.

After all, the question seemed very reasonable, simple, and straightforward.

Best Regards.
Abby.

Yes !! I tried to answer to this quizz, and I would like to know if I won !!! 

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi

Eileen is right on the button for me.

Also It is how the comparison has been recorded and that can swing an argument.
It can be like going to a music shop and hearing a demo on decent set of speakers and come home and not so good on yours.
I must admit that the mp3 recording is good and that is supposed to be way down on a wave file. Being just a piano there is not much for the compression to squeeze out.
The Genos is way above the Tyros in the way you can manipulate It.
I think most people are frightened going forward, but the forward is the only way to go.
Now , I would also say go AAC  for the future or is that another argument!! or "oh flac file"   "OGG"!!anybody


All the best
John

Ps  I think that there could or should be a section for the ultimate mix where all can share their experiences and discussion on how all the effects and compressions and eq's alter a final song and then a lot of people will see how sound comes together. Just a suggestion. Even I am an amateur at mixing.
You can get great recordings out of anything if you know what to do with years of experience but going forward with the latest gear is the best way to go If you dream.
Also like Eileen has said to me " No pockets In Shrouds"!!!

[Kaarlo von Freymann]

Yes !! I tried to answer to this quizz, and I would like to know if I won !!! 

Thanks,
I will post  at what points the switch between the voice files were made , just waiting for some more comments and what people hear that I can no more hear. 
A beautiful lady - I think her  her name was Antoine - wrote it would be better to have a comparison of an orchestrated file, not just piano, which I agree would in deed better reflect the sound qualities of the keyboards compared.

I have deleted the rest of this post as I am afraid I will get reprimanded  by the administrators..............



Cheers

Kaarlo

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Kaarlo

I would not worry as we all have our opinions and that is what makes a discussion.

Here'e Johnny!!!!

[Eric, B]

Hi,
I hope I don't offend anybody here ... 
But here it goes:
I have read a lot of posts of people asking others to compare keyboards and which is better.
By now all the specs and technical data is available and we discussed the features and sound et nauseum.
I have never relied on other peoples opinion on what to buy.
It seems to me that only we can answer to what our ears tell us and what our needs are.
Some of the discussions are getting tiresome ...
Do or don't. It seems to me that some people don't seem to be happy no matter what.
It's been said before: "nobody forces us to buy anything"
I get it, that we ask for some pointers etc. But at some point we need to do our own homework and ask: Is this really what I want/need?
In the past I have switched brands and skipped a generation or two, because what was out there wasn't for my needs.
I don't think that constant questions about is this better than this or should I buy this will help anybody.
We all have different needs and hear different things. Thank God.
It would be boring otherwise ... 
I live by a simple rule: If in doubt; leave it out. And: Don't change a winning game 
It really is not rocket science. Some people seem to make things more complicated than they really are.
We are talking about music here and having some fun with it (at least I hope so)
I am with Eileen on this ...
Again: Sorry if I offend anybody
Just some observations 
Regards
Eric

[Pianoman]

Hello

I played this very difficult and interesting game.

I agree that difference is very difficult to hear, but the player is very good and it would be perhaps easier to hear differences with a slowler score.

Nevertheless, my guess :
Genos starts until 00 mn :52 s
Then Tyros until :1 mn : 04 s
Then Genos until 1 mn : 29 s
Then Tyros until 1 mn : 43 s
Then Genos

What I called "Genos sound" seems to me a little more metallic, bright with a better bass and natural reverb.

Perhaps I'm totally wrong, and all the score is played by Genos, or all is played by Tyros .... Nevermind, if I'm ridiculous :-)

Soundphase

Hello Kaarlo.

I'm afraid you will not get many other people, apart from Soundphase, whom I commend for
his bravery, to stick their neck out and take a guess.

Doing so would involve the risk of getting it wrong, or admitting that one can't tell the
difference, which is a no-no.

It is  much easier to just critise the message, or the messenger.

We seem to be twisting ourselves into Pretzels here in order to avoid giving this a try.

I can't seem to tell the difference, but then I've never owned any of these keyboards.

Good luck with your (quiz?) test.

Best Regards.
Abby.

[soundphase]

Hello Kaarlo.

I'm afraid you will not get many other people, apart from Soundphase, whom I commend for
his bravery, to stick their neck out and take a guess.

Doing so would involve the risk if getting it wrong, or admitting that one can't tell the
difference, which is a no-no.

It is  much easier to just critise the message, or the messenger.

We seem to be twisting ourselves into Pretzels here in order to avoid giving this a try.

I can't seem to tell the difference, but then I've never owned any of these keyboards.

Good luck with your (quiz?) test.

Best Regards.
Abby.

For me, it doesn't mean the Genos is not better than the Tyros. I understand that professionals who consider investments, ask questions. For the others that only play for pleasure, like me, and can afford the purchase, there is no question to ask.

[Kaarlo von Freymann]

Yes !! I tried to answer to this quizz, and I would like to know if I won !!! 

Thanks for supporting my idea that it is important to separate hype from fact and taking the quiz.  Awfully sorry, one can only win a competition if there are a minimum of participants. I once participated in the Finnish National Radio Controlled Airplane Aerobatic Finals  as they needed 8 participants and only 7 showed up. Needles to say I was the one with the least points.

Here is what was done: first 4 bars Tyros, then every 4 bars toggled between Genos and Tyros. Easier than using a stop watch.

My quizz was a complete flop as to participation. Not surprising as we have been told, to some the whole idea is a bad one. The Genos is so much better sound wise than the Tyros that people step up to you when you are gigging congratulating you for your new sound.

Unfortunately I had to post an MP3 file due to size restrictions. I for one NEVER use MP3.  It destroys any recording.

When you listen to the original WAV file you actually with good speakers can discern a  IMHO very slight difference. The Genos
piano sounds a little "earier" .  Its difficult to put in words,   like  when you open he window when you wake up in the morning.

Cheers

Kaarlo

[DerekA]

Kaarlo, sorry to be stupid but I don't quite understand what you compared.

Did you play the music on a Tyros 5 and a Genos, and create an MP3 that merged the two outputs? Or were you playing a Genos only, and swapping between two voices on the Genos (e.g. CFX and ConcertGrand)?

Thanks

[Pianoman]

Hello Derek.

I believe that his friend was playing this one song on the Genos and Kaarlo was switching
between a Genos  piano and a T5 piano every 4 bars.

If I understood correctly, he was switching between the Genos CFX and the T5 Concert Grand
during the playing of the song, both pianos being played on the Genos.

He had somehow copied the T5 piano and put it in the Genos.

Best Regards.
Abby.

[jwyvern]

Hello Derek.

I believe that his friend was playing this one song on the Genos and Kaarlo was switching
between a Genos  piano and a T5 piano every 4 bars.

If I understood correctly, he was switching between the Genos CFX and the T5 Concert Grand
during the playing of the song, both pianos being played on the Genos.

He had somehow copied the T5 piano and put it in the Genos.

Best Regards.
Abby.

If that is how Kaarlo ran the comparison it is not technically possible to copy preset voices from one keyboard to another. But it would be unnecessary since the Ty5 pianos are already present on Genos in the Legacy folder.
Running the comparison in the way described above (if indeed it was) may introduce some "unfairness" since the Concert Grand has the benefit of the Genos sound engine reproducing it, which it would not have if played on a Tyros.
When for curiosity I play the CG on Genos it sounds a lot fuller than it used to on Ty4 or Ty5,


John

[soundphase]

I just played Consolation number 3 from Liszt on Genos mainly using CFX piano.

https://youtu.be/4yLRdf62t8E

I'm totally sure my results wouldn't have been the same with my Tyros 5 and its « concert grand »

[DerekA]

Running the comparison in the way described above (if indeed it was) may introduce some "unfairness" since the Concert Grand has the benefit of the Genos sound engine reproducing it, which it would not have if played on a Tyros.

John

Well exactly. Surely this comparison only has any meaning if one voice came from a physical T5 and the other from a Genos. Othewise, who's to say Yamaha aren't just using the same sample for CFX and GrandPiano on Genos, while the GrandPiano on Tyros is a different sample.

[Kaarlo von Freymann]

Hello Derek.

I believe that his friend was playing this one song on the Genos and Kaarlo was switching
between a Genos  piano and a T5 piano every 4 bars.

If I understood correctly, he was switching between the Genos CFX and the T5 Concert Grand
during the playing of the song, both pianos being played on the Genos.

He had somehow copied the T5 piano and put it in the Genos.

EXACTLY !

Best Regards.
Abby.

[Kaarlo von Freymann]

Well exactly. Surely this comparison only has any meaning if one voice came from a physical T5 and the other from a Genos. Othewise, who's to say Yamaha aren't just using the same sample for CFX and GrandPiano on Genos, while the GrandPiano on Tyros is a different sample.

I am a little confused,  have I gotten that wrong ?  I  thought the  advertised better sound of the Genos compared to Tyros 5 was due to new better voice samples.

https://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical_instruments/keyboards/arranger_workstations/genos/features.html

I had one of the first dedicated sample units (expanders) in the 1980is, cannot remember the brand name,  It was acceptable for muted trumpets but not the for piano. Not surprisingly there were those who had bought the unit and claimed the "interpolation" was inaudible.
The problem was there were,  only 3 samples per octave. The notes in between were arrived at by "interpolation". 
YAMAHA  long ago  started to have one sample  for every note, and now they  even sample the  same note at different velocities and in stereo. 
What we did was compare the sound quality of voices by switching from  an "imported" Tyros  grand piano sample (not legacy) to the CFX  grand piano sample on the Genos.

The playing was done on the Genos and digitally recorded, so the Tyros sample may have "benefitted" from being reproduced by the Genos.  I believe  is difficult to switch between  two separate keyboards without the switching being audible.
I do agree with the notion, it would be best to set up both keyboards in a "live" environment connected to the same PA system and then let the player  during his performance use both keyboards alternatively and having a blindfolded group of  average musical persons  listen and lift their right or left hand indicating which instrument they are hearing.  I would not be surprised they might  very well be able to hear a difference in case there is complete silence.
But that again does not represent a valid test condition.  You would have to fill the place with the "normal" noise.  My professional meter usually shows  75 dB - 85 dB.
 
This was not about whether you should buy the Genos or not, this was just about not believing those who claim the audience hears a difference, in which case a professional musician using the keyboard as a tool for revenue would be well advised to consider exchanging his Tyros for the Genos which in that case would not only make YAMAHA money but might make him some money also. 
I have  - better late than never-  understood most on this site feel like Eileen,  comparisons are futile and finding the truth is not what we are interested in. That is probably why I never check what my wife does.

Cheers

Kaarlo