Yamaha's support for the Genos

[travlin-easy]

Lee, I have been on stage for more than 3 decades, and the last two decades were 7 days a week. I never needed a video to learn how to use any of the dozen or more arranger keyboards I have owned, including Korg, Roland and Yamaha. All it took was a common sense approach and sitting down with the user manual next to the keyboard and thoroughly going through all the keyboard's features. In nearly every instance, that took about two months, but sometimes longer. As I have stated many times in the past, the vast majority of users, especially professional entertainers, rarely take the manual out of the zip-lock bag, let alone go through it. Videos would not be removed from their jackets, either, and I'm pretty sure this would be the case.

There is a reason that so many people ask so many questions on this forum every day of the week - they never looked in the manual. Fortunately, there are people here who can usually come up with the correct answer in short order. I used to point out the page in the user manual that provided detailed instructions, but it didn't seem to do any good, and some members seemed to get upset that I had the audacity to tell them where to find the information.

Videos, those that are professionally engineered, cost a fortune to produce. I have a friend that produces the music for TV commercials, and a finished 30 second music cut nets him an average of $5,000. Imagine what it would cost for a video that covered every aspect of the Genos, Tyros, or any PSR arranger keyboard. All that information could not be covered in less than 3 hours, and that's if everything was storyboarded and professionally produced. Keep in mind that the demo videos produced by Yamaha just barely skim the surface of what the keyboard is capable of doing. Imagine showing all the features in Real Time on a video.

years ago, when I worked in TV production, I had to shoot and edit 3 30 minute TV shows a week. Those 3 shows took an average of 18 to 20 hours to put together after they were taped, and they were not technical programs - just local color stuff. A 3 hour video on the Genos, or any other Yamaha Arranger Keyboard, would take several months to put together, and by the time it was finished, a new model would be coming out.

All the best,

Gary :cool:

[StuartR]

I vote that we create our own instructional videos and send Yamaha the bill. Can we agree that $300 (Canadian) per hour for development time should suffice? We may find it a bit of a challenge to collect but I'd still send them an invoice. There are enough brilliant minds on this forum that we can do that .

Seriously, it's time Yamaha woke up and realized that the machines they've created satisfy TWO types of players: the home player and the stage player. Both types deserve advanced level instruction. I'd bet my entire net worth that even the "sit at home and turn the Genos on once in a while just to play a few tunes to warm my heart" types occasionally venture into the depths of EQ, Effects, and even style creation. When Yamaha does not create these videos, they are prejudging that audience. Bad move!! Every stage player here started out as a home player.

Yamaha should not underestimate any Genos user's knowledge level. After all, when even the most basic player finds an advanced level task that seems to come easy to him or her, they are delighted with their new find. Their playing level moves up a notch or two as well.

I play professionally, but I have an undying respect for those who invest the big money in an arranger just to sit and play at home. Hats off to you folks  . You and us pro stage players all deserve advanced level instruction. If you choose to stay at a very basic level, that should be your choice, not the company whose bills you pay!!!

Despite all the naysayers, I agree wholeheartedly with you Lee.

[frankmusik]

You are all right, but actually I don't see the resources at yamaha and there wish to do, hopefully they understand....

They sell tons of keys without that... and you are the supporters ....
Yamaha Europe also send customers and dealers - not only Germans - with problems to me...
And I am also not on Yamaha's payroll!!!

Genos Fever was in me from Berlin but I was to active for Y :-) some of you read my threads before I delete them...

Genos is for new markets - customers and countries... and the support out of Europe  also from dealers is behind, it takes time and I hope yamaha take money to optimize support...but first is costs and necessary.... it works fine for them till now without.. because of all the free supporters...

And one thing. I have also customers in 2018 just play her keyboard... use styles reg live, don't use a memory button nor a midifile and perform on stage :-) AND are happy with the sound!
Don't forget the keyboards can used to play, take a style a ots and play...
I know searching for THE SOUND is a LOOOOOOOOONG way but last decades we sold the searchers synth :-)  yamaha want to add the searchers also to Genos so we l see what happen....


Greetings from Germany
Frank


@michael most activities you wrote are driven by private!!!! No heidrun =no musicando ...

[Oldden]

Hi,
Perhaps in time there will be other sources of information besides Yamaha. How about a Genos for Dummies book, or a course developed by Lynda. If you want to learn the guitar there are hundred of free videos on YouTube, most with books and DVDs to buy to supplement the videos. I think if there is any money to be made, then somewhere, someone will find a way to do it.

My late Wife was a far better player than me, but she would never dream of reading a manual. But she would stand behind me whilst I was playing, nudge me off my stool, and do it far better. That was just her was of learning, there must many others who learn in there own personal way, just need some help.
Oldden

[Lee Batchelor]

All good points, folks - especially yours Gary.

I guess my points can be refined down a bit. For the basic stuff, you can look it up in the manual. For the advanced stuff, produce a downloadable video - nothing fancy - just "point and shoot" as my late dad would say (motion picture cameraman, DP, videographer). I bought an online, two hour instructional video from Yamaha with Phil Clendeninn showing the basics and some advanced features of the MOX8 synth. I found it very helpful. Price $29.95 (CDN). I'd pay that again for a similar video about advanced Genos features.

Of course, one cannot discount the very helpful minds on this forum who figure out how to do something that the manual doesn't spell out very well, and who are willing to share their step by step knowledge. That is after all, the whole point of this forum .

[StuartR]

I bought an online, two hour instructional video from Yamaha with Phil Clendeninn showing the basics and some advanced features of the MOX8 synth. I found it very helpful. Price $29.95 (CDN). I'd pay that again for a similar video about advanced Genos features.

Me too.

[Dromeus]

Me too.

Me three LOL

[keynote]

Doing a variety of videos on Youtube would be more convenient and it would be able to reach more people. Doing a DVD or two would also be a nice gesture. We have a lot invested in our Genos and it would be nice if Yamaha invested back into the community. 

Mike

[StuartR]

Doing a variety of videos on Youtube would be more convenient and it would be able to reach more people. Doing a DVD or two would also be a nice gesture. We have a lot invested in our Genos and it would be nice if Yamaha invested back into the community. 

Mike

Absolutely. Just as they do for some of their other complex musical gear.

[Lee Batchelor]

Agreed guys. I'm sure Peter Baartmans doesn't work for free. If they can pay him, they can afford to produce a series of short videos. We don't need an epic level production filled with special effects. Just have a guy or gal sit in a corner at Yamaha, mount the camera, turn it on, and go. Forget the editing, makeup, lighting, and other costly stuff. We just need raw knowledge.

[frankmusik]

We talk about a keyboard not yet 2 month on earth... :-)
There will be videos and stuff a lot... it just takes time.
And yamaha never did this.... always 3rd parties.....

Frank

[Lee Batchelor]

Good point, Frank. Microsoft Help is pathetic because they know third party people will gladly post their knowledge about how to deal with all the Windows and MS Office annoyances.

[Jean Abdou]

...
Browsing this site you will find a wealth of useful information, tutorials and a forum that is not only run by Yamaha, but where real Yamaha experts (e.g. "Bad Mister" Phil Clendeninn) do answer questions in a concise and in-depth manner and share their excellent technical knowledge.
...
Why can't Yamaha arranger users have the same level of support?
...

First of all, I second that Phil is doing an amazing job there at yamahasynth.com almost single-handedly and I have learned a lot from this man. So I hold a lot of respect for him.

Second, have you ever happened to own a MOTIF series keyboard or Montage? If there are some functionalities in Tyros or PSR series that do not exist in the booklet and the documentation, there are many that do not exist in the documentation for the MOTIF/Montage series. Tyros and Genos when it comes to making things from the scratch, communicating with other synthesizers and DAW and ... are probably half of what MOTIF and MONTAGE are.

The arpeggio system is just an example which is mentioned here. The amount of background/non-music-related knowledge necessary to operate MOTIF and Montage at their best, is more than what you need to use a Tyros/Genos.

That's why!

[Lee Batchelor]

Jean, my training as a technical writer tells me that if a product does A,B, and C, the documentation must describe A, B, and C. No excuses.......

Large companies are notorious for skimping on proper documentation. Yamaha's manuals are generally pretty darn good - better than a lot of others. All we ask is that some of the more sophisticated processes be properly documented. The only data that can be morally omitted are the tasks that even the developers didn't consider possible but that a user found. The developers are off the hook for those.

[panos]

Thanks for the information.
I would never buy something by the montage or motif series then.
Unfortunatly  I do not own a degree in engineering
If it is so hard to do videos on youtube to sell your product then why people like this guy sell allready Expansion Pack for Genos  and he explains how the instrument produces these sounds? 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XIP_Xr30GA&t=451s

All we read is that a Genos can do this or that but no official videos to explain anything
so, all we have to do is wait from the users to upload their videos after they find out by themselves how the keyboard works.

I guess the manual's help is nothing more than the typical:
"use right 1 & 2 voice for your right hand and left part for your left hand" 

[travlin-easy]

Having read some of the Genos Manual and most all of the PSR and Tyros manuals, I can tell you that there is a wealth of information in every one of them. Early on, Yamaha's manuals were poorly written, and I had some lengthy conversations with them about this very subject. Since then, they have gone into far more detail in the user manuals, and better indexing of subject material, thereby making it much easier to find certain features and how they function.

All the best,

Gary

[valimaties]

Thanks for the information.
I would never buy something by the montage or motif series then.
Unfortunatly  I do not own a degree in engineering
If it is so hard to do videos on youtube to sell your product then why people like this guy sell allready Expansion Pack for Genos  and he explains how the instrument produces these sounds? 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XIP_Xr30GA&t=451s

All we read is that a Genos can do this or that but no official videos to explain anything
so, all we have to do is wait from the users to upload their videos after they find out by themselves how the keyboard works.

Brands (Yamaha, Korg, Roland, etc) (as I know) does not makes videos to show you how a feature works, detailed. There are small pieces of videos (like Yamaha did, mostly on Genos) to show some new features how works, but they are generally speaking, no like a tutorial. No brand make tutorials They add owner and reference manuals on keyboard's download page. You have to read them, there are a lot of useful information in both manuals (more on the reference manual, is more detailed).
I don't blame Yamaha that doesn't made tutorial videos. And I never will do that! I don't think it is a reasonable demand!

I guess the manual's help is nothing more than the typical:
"use right 1 & 2 voice for your right hand and left part for your left hand" 

If you tell us you guess, so you didn't even search in manual for some info. This is not a good approach.
PS: You don't need a "engineer degree" to read a manual, or at least a section you need to know. Read and try. You have it (the keyboard), there are some guys that does not have it yet!

Regards,
Vali

[Joe H]

First of all, I second that Phil is doing an amazing job there at yamahasynth.com almost single-handedly and I have learned a lot from this man. So I hold a lot of respect for him.

Second, have you ever happened to own a MOTIF series keyboard or Montage? If there are some functionalities in Tyros or PSR series that do not exist in the booklet and the documentation, there are many that do not exist in the documentation for the MOTIF/Montage series. Tyros and Genos when it comes to making things from the scratch, communicating with other synthesizers and DAW and ... are probably half of what MOTIF and MONTAGE are.

The arpeggio system is just an example which is mentioned here. The amount of background/non-music-related knowledge necessary to operate MOTIF and Montage at their best, is more than what you need to use a Tyros/Genos.

That's why!

Well I respectfully disagree with most of you have said.  I think the arranger keyboard is superior to Yamaha synths for creating music from scratch and/or arranging... it is easier to do because of the architecture.

As far as Phil goes... I have had a totally different experience with him and his "Power User" guides are rather simplistic to say the least.

Joe H

[XeeniX]

Having read some of the Genos Manual and most all of the PSR and Tyros manuals, I can tell you that there is a wealth of information in every one of them. Early on, Yamaha's manuals were poorly written, and I had some lengthy conversations with them about this very subject. Since then, they have gone into far more detail in the user manuals, and better indexing of subject material, thereby making it much easier to find certain features and how they function.

All the best,

Gary

Uh, not to rattle cages but certain features Gary ... Yes. Quite a few others.... No.

To name an example:
They push the the style creator feature forward as a plus. They do the same with the voice and song creator. But to my knowledge (and please correct me if I am wrong because I missed it) never went any further than a very brief explanation that they exist. Or a guy showing somewhere it was possible to use these to your advantage and to broaden your world while being at your new keyboard. Surely not how it was done.

These are however three features that didn't change all that much in all the decades they already exist.  I realize that for quite a few of us these specific features are rocket science and not interesting enough. After all you buy a keyboard (hopefully) in the first place to play but still... I saw quite a few posts in the few years that I am on board with PSR tutorial that suggest a need for a little more explanation besides the information the awesome volunteers on this forum are willing and capable to give. If they expect arranger users to be not that bright, not that inventive, not interested than why build in  these features in the arranger in the first place?

regards,
Peter

[Joe H]

Peter,

I think in-depth editing would require computer-based software.  And since there is third-party software (free and commercial) could be that there is no incentive for Yamaha to produce any of its own.

Joe H

[Lee Batchelor]

Peter,

I think in-depth editing would require computer-based software.  And since there is third-party software (free and commercial) could be that there is no incentive for Yamaha to produce any of its own.

Joe H

OMG, Yamaha is now following the Microsoft business model....we're all doomed........... !!

[XeeniX]

Joe,

I'm not talking about in-dept editing. I'm talking about features that are are there and promoted by Yamaha in several demo's but never explained any further than a simple "it's there and it works"  Now with Yem ... Incredibly complex if you want to use the voice creator and not even a single chapter handing a neat example. Not even a 10 line guide for dummies

Don't get me wrong, I understand that such info is valuable and needs a market. But why build it in if you don't have at least a starters guide? It will only raises eyebrows to say the least when people are checking all buttons or options in the menu I know for one that mine raised wondering how I could use those to bide some time using them to my advantage. I ended up biding time wondering how in the world I could get them to work

regards,

Peter

[XeeniX]

Besides,

that 3rd party computer based software and I name a few that I came across: Mixmaster, Style Magic, YRM and Josoft software (sorry if I forgot a few) How many of these people trying to help by providing the 3rd party software that can overcome some of the difficulties trying to enhance our keyboard's tougher to understand features were give a carrot so to speak?  Mostly these people are doing that in their free time. To my knowledge they never had any help with for example some data updates to assure they can continue filling a few gaps?

I don't see  a younger generation yet with a follow up (uh, could be me ofc ). Not trying to be disrespectful but these people are trying to keep up by updating after each new model are having quite a hard time doing so. The least Yamaha imo could do is to be a little more helpful to these people. That is if they think they are serving a purpose.

I've read a topic lately where Yamaha support told someone to post his ideas here since they were legally obliged to refuse sending any customer's ideas/suggestions to their TD? I think I do understand why. But telling the customer they had people reading up on posts on this forum? That gives me reason to think they do find this forum useful. In that case and if true i'd say quid pro quo or perhaps more to the point: Help another to help yourself

regards,
Peter

[Joe H]

... I've read a topic lately where Yamaha support told someone to post his ideas here since they were legally obliged to refuse sending any customer's ideas/suggestions to their TD? I think I do understand why. But telling the customer they had people reading up on posts on this forum? That gives me reason to think they do find this forum useful. In that case and if true i'd say quid pro quo or perhaps more to the point: Help another to help yourself

regards,
Peter

Peter,

I'm the person Yamaha Support told they could no longer accept ideas for upgrades because of "legal issues", and I should post on this forum... even provided me a link to this forum. And told me that marketing managers monitor this forum.

Joe H

[XeeniX]

Joe,

Please accept my apologies, now that you mention it I remember it was you. Silly me was more focused on the Yamaha reply than on the poster. Not my intention but it seems I couldn't help it Still, it leaves a certain feeling that they replied the way they did dont you think?

kind regards,
Peter

[Joe H]

Peter,

With all the crazy talk lately... You are forgiven!



Joe H

[travlin-easy]

Peter, first and foremost, I learned to use both the style creator and voice creator when I purchased my PSR-2000 many, many years ago. All of that information was in the user manual. I sat down at the keyboard with that manual at my side and created my first style, which, BTW, was absolutely horrible. I eventually got better at it, but it took months of practice with that feature to get something acceptable. The same holds true with the voice creator, and I have shared several of those voices on this site.

For step by step, I have written several step by step instructions and posted them on this forum. I did one for registrations that has been downloaded many, many times. Fred did a video about the same subject sometime later. I learned those things from the user manuals - not from any other source.

The pioneers on this forum have posted hundreds upon hundreds of instructions showing members how to do things. Keep in mind, though, we learned all this by gleaning through the manuals.

Not only did I do this with several Yamaha Arranger Keyboards that I owned, but I also did it with some I didn't own so I could provide assistance to those on the forum that had those keyboards and were not able to find solutions to their problems. I also poured through the pages of user manuals for the Korg M1, Roland G-800, and a few lesser known boards that I owned. As a working musician, who made his entire income from performing on stage every day of the week, I needed to know how to do these things in order to get the most out of my keyboards, thereby providing my audiences with the best entertainment I could possibly provide. To me, this was one of the most important aspects of being an entertainer/musician/singer. All that information made me one of the most successful entertainers in my area for more than 3 decades. And, the locals around my part of the world frequently called me "The Professor" because I was able to solve their arranger keyboard problems often with just a short telephone call. I thought that moniker was very flattering.

Over the years, I have always strived to provide as much detail as possible when answering questions about a particular problem that a person may have encountered. Most of the time, I no longer have to crack open the user manual to make sure the information I provide is correct, but there are times that I still must do exactly that. As I pointed out earlier, some folks seemed to a bit put off that I would provide them chapter and verse, including the page numbers in the owner's manual. Most, were just happy to have their problem solved.

Keep in mind there are usually two manuals that come with every keyboard, the user manual and the reference manual. Both are kinda intertwined, especially when the problems encountered are a bit complex. Now, if you cannot find it in the manuals, then you have two options - ask the question here, or beat your head against the wall trying to figure it out on your own. I have the lumps to prove how many times I have used option #2.

Good Luck,

Gary

[frankmusik]

Nice to read all the different thoughts and request.
Almost everybody has other needs...

I think for genos there will more support videos stuff manuals ... than for every other keyboard ever...
And because of using in more professional use a lot of freaks will find cool things :-)

In german almost 3 hours Video are ready
https://www.keyboard-akademie.de/produkt/genos-das-grosse-training/

The first book from manni pichler and roman sterzik
https://www.facebook.com/key***perts/

Nothing from yamaha !---but freelancer working also for yamaha...

The problem is no international yamaha freelancer thought of earning money with things like books, videos, Regs, styles ....
All of the Germans do! Heidrun Dolde, manni pichler, Dennis regender, Thoralf Abgarjan, roman sterzik....

Greetings from Germany
Frank .... never forget the premiere of tyros one ... dr.jeromin started :"tyros will change the Keyboard market" and now in Berlin with genos it goes on... not the instrument for everyone but a lot!

[Joe H]

I sincerely hope that the programmers on this forum are not offended by the discussion of wanting more support from Yamaha. Without all the free software they have created and offered we would have NOTHING... no tools at all without their unselfish labors.  The "added value" of having these free tools cannot be measured in $$$.

Every time I used one of these tools I am so grateful that they are available. Without them I would be so frustrated because I would not be able to express my creativity and accomplish the things I want to do.  I most likely would have sold my arranger and went for a synth years ago. But the arranger has so much potential for creating original music.

With all this talk about Yamaha... I just wanted to say THANK YOU to the programmers who are part of this forum.  Where would we be without your contributions?

               

Joe H

[Jørgen]

Hi Joe

Not at all offended. On the contrary. And thanks for the nice words to me and other leisure programmers. We can also use more help from Yamaha.
For our programs, we need to use a lot of data. Something can be cut and paste from the pdf data lists. But in many cases we need data that is not public at all.
So, with the help of volunteers, we make sample files. And from these, extract the data we need. Maybe you should even write a program for this extraction too ...
For more than 18 years, I have spent over 1,000 hours each and every year developing and maintaining my programs. Some years even well over 1,000 hours.
So some more help from Yamaha is desirable. Both to those who play the keyboard and to us, who need more data than there are in the manuals today.

Regards
Jørgen