Yamaha's support for the Genos

[Dromeus]

Those of you who are interested in the Yamaha synth line, will be familiar with all the continued efforts spend by the synth department to support their customers in using their products. If you don't know, just as an example have a look at:

https://yamahasynth.com/blog/montage-indepth-programming-series

Browsing this site you will find a wealth of useful information, tutorials and a forum that is not only run by Yamaha, but where real Yamaha experts (e.g. "Bad Mister" Phil Clendeninn) do answer questions in a concise and in-depth manner and share their excellent technical knowledge.

In Europe the Music Production Guide is published as an English and a German edition, providing excellent tutorials:

http://www.easysounds.eu/mpghistory/history_en.htm

Why can't Yamaha arranger users have the same level of support?

Granted a Motif or Montage is a much more complex machine compared to a Genos, but this forum proves that there is a huge need for guidance, tutorials, best practices, how to use the technology and so on. May I recall that a Genos is about 60% more expensive compared to a Montage 7 (prices in Germany)?

Makes me feel like a second class customer  .

[StuartR]

Those of you who are interested in the Yamaha synth line, will be familiar with all the continued efforts spend by the synth department to support their customers in using their products. If you don't know, just as an example have a look at:

https://yamahasynth.com/blog/montage-indepth-programming-series

Browsing this site you will find a wealth of useful information, tutorials and a forum that is not only run by Yamaha, but where real Yamaha experts (e.g. "Bad Mister" Phil Clendeninn) do answer questions in a concise and in-depth manner and share their excellent technical knowledge.

In Europe the Music Production Guide is published as an English and a German edition, providing excellent tutorials:

http://www.easysounds.eu/mpghistory/history_en.htm

Why can't Yamaha arranger users have the same level of support?

Granted a Motif or Montage is a much more complex machine compared to a Genos, but this forum proves that there is a huge need for guidance, tutorials, best practices, how to use the technology and so on. May I recall that a Genos is about 60% more expensive compared to a Montage 7 (prices in Germany)?

Makes me feel like a second class customer  .

Good question that really hasn't been answered very well to my knowledge. I owned a Montage for about a year and spent time on their synth forum. I also read their music production newsletters. Both were great assets. Why Yamaha hasn't extended their forum to cover their extensive arranger series is a mystery to me. That's not to say that this forum and a few others aren't great as well but they aren't Yamaha sponsored and as far as I can tell don't have active Yamaha product manager members.

[keynote]

Why can't Yamaha arranger users have the same level of support?

Granted a Motif or Montage is a much more complex machine compared to a Genos, but this forum proves that there is a huge need for guidance, tutorials, best practices, how to use the technology and so on. May I recall that a Genos is about 60% more expensive compared to a Montage 7 (prices in Germany)?

Makes me feel like a second class customer  .

That is a very good question indeed! The top of the line arrangers are more expensive than their synth/workstation counterparts but I'm not too sure the latter is much more complex than arrangers are. Arrangers are indeed very complex too since you are dealing with style and registration files both of which require sophisticated software programming in order to play them in a smooth and efficient manner. In other words, the OS (operating system) has to figure out how to play the styles and registrations correctly, in an efficient manner, i.e. no hiccups or freezes or other anomalies that could potentially hinder a person's performance. Granted, synth workstations usually have a sampler and a full fledged sequencer but in fact the Montage has neither.

There are probably as many Yamaha arranger owners as there are Yamaha synth workstation owners so it makes sense that Yamaha would/should start a web based forum, or forums plural, regarding their mid-range and high-end arrangers. To be honest I think the main reason why Yamaha so far has chosen not to start an official web based forum support site for arrangers is they probably think arranger owners are mainly hobbyists (and retired) whereas a good percentage of synth workstation users could be considered more than hobbyists (and younger also) that make a living or supplement their income by gigging professionally. And also a lot of people still have the notion that arrangers are toys that for the most part sound cheesy and therefore don't qualify as serious contenders in the grand scheme of things. Little do they know. 

The downsides of starting a web based arranger support site probably outweigh the benefits in Yamaha's point of view. Or perhaps they have never seriously considered doing so and subsequently if more arranger owners voiced their support for such an endeavor then perhaps Yamaha would take it seriously and oblige their customers which is a large segment of keyboard players in general. There are a whole lot of Yamaha arranger owners who would benefit immensely from such an endeavor and if it helps Yamaha's customers it could ultimately help Yamaha's own bottom line as well in my opinion. In other words, a win win situation if I ever heard of one. 

Mike 

[StuartR]

That is a very good question indeed! The top of the line arrangers are more expensive than their synth/workstation counterparts but I'm not too sure the latter is much more complex than arrangers are. Arrangers are indeed very complex too since you are dealing with style and registration files both of which require sophisticated software programming in order to play them in a smooth and efficient manner. In other words, the OS (operating system) has to figure out how to play the styles and registrations correctly, in an efficient manner, i.e. no hiccups or freezes or other anomalies that could potentially hinder a person's performance. Granted, synth workstations usually have a sampler and a full fledged sequencer but in fact the Montage has neither.

There are probably as many Yamaha arranger owners as there are Yamaha synth workstation owners so it makes sense that Yamaha would/should start a web based forum, or forums plural, regarding their mid-range and high-end arrangers. To be honest I think the main reason why Yamaha so far has chosen not to start an official web based forum support site for arrangers is they probably think arranger owners are mainly hobbyists (and retired) whereas a good percentage of synth workstation users could be considered more than hobbyists (and younger also) that make a living or supplement their income by gigging professionally. And also a lot of people still have the notion that arrangers are toys that for the most part sound cheesy and therefore don't qualify as serious contenders in the grand scheme of things. Little do they know. 

The downsides of starting a web based arranger support site probably outweigh the benefits in Yamaha's point of view. Or perhaps they have never seriously considered doing so and subsequently if more arranger owners voiced their support for such an endeavor then perhaps Yamaha would take it seriously and oblige their customers which is a large segment of keyboard players in general. There are a whole lot of Yamaha arranger owners who would benefit immensely from such an endeavor and if it helps Yamaha's customers it could ultimately help Yamaha's own bottom line as well in my opinion. In other words, a win win situation if I ever heard of one. 

Mike

Failing a Yamaha supported forum, how about providing some workshops and video tutorials that would cover in detail some of the more complex and powerful arranger features. All we get from Yamaha are demonstrations, most of which aren't even presented in English. Pretty disappointing once you see what Yamaha offers to their synth owners. Scratching my head over this.

[Joe H]

Why can't Yamaha arranger users have the same level of support?

Makes me feel like a second class customer  .

I think the short answer is because Joe Waters created this website, and also an awful lot of people (including those at Yamaha) think the arranger keyboard is an inferior instrument to the "synth" line.  People who buy arrangers want to play vintage music... and just want PLAY rather than spend their time tweaking sounds or being creative.

Those of us who would like an arranger with synth capabilities are among a small minority of arranger owners.  But I think Yamaha is slowing changing.  We see a new generation of arranger starting with the Genos.

Stay tuned for more changes in both instrument and attitudes.



Joe H

[Oldden]

Hi,
Is there anybody from Yamaha out there at the moment reading this post and would like to comment on it ? ...............it's gone very quiet.
Oldden

[Joe H]

Yamaha folks chime in once in awhile... then go silent.

Joe H

[travlin-easy]

The best support you will find for any Yamaha arranger keyboard is right here on this site - period! Granted the support team at Yamaha can solve a lot of technical problems that cannot be solved in this forum, but the forum can solve 99.9-percent of the user associated problems and do this in short order. And, lets face it. Most problems are not hardware/software related. Instead, they are just areas within the operating system where the user cannot find a solution to a problem they encountered when trying to perform certain functions. More often than not, one or more of the forum members has performed that operation and can provide you with step by step information how to go about completing the task at hand. No need to call Yamaha for these things.

Good luck,

Gary

[StuartR]

The best support you will find for any Yamaha arranger keyboard is right here on this site - period! Granted the support team at Yamaha can solve a lot of technical problems that cannot be solved in this forum, but the forum can solve 99.9-percent of the user associated problems and do this in short order. And, lets face it. Most problems are not hardware/software related. Instead, they are just areas within the operating system where the user cannot find a solution to a problem they encountered when trying to perform certain functions. More often than not, one or more of the forum members has performed that operation and can provide you with step by step information how to go about completing the task at hand. No need to call Yamaha for these things.

Good luck,

Gary

That's all well and good and greatly appreciated but some actual workshops and video tutorials would be most welcome. As for actual Yamaha product support on this forum, I think I've only seen one person who identified himself thusly but never made any significant contribution. I'd be happy to be proven incorrect.

[Oldden]

Hi Gary,
I agree with you completely, but if we did not have this forum what would we do. Lots of customers contacting Yamaha on their own, often with the same problem. This forum is a lifeline to many, me included, but it would be nice if Yamaha decided to help a bit. Videos for common operations, solving simple problems, anything really more than they do now.
Oldden

[Joe H]

That's all well and good and greatly appreciated but some actual workshops and video tutorials would be most welcome. As for actual Yamaha product support on this forum, I think I've only seen one person who identified himself thusly but never made any significant contribution. I'd be happy to be proven incorrect.

I agree... who knows Yamaha arranger keyboards better than Yamaha?  There is a LOT of opinions and misinformation being  tossed around lately on this forum.  The Genos is a beast and is a game-changer.

Joe H

[StuartR]

Hi Gary,
I agree with you completely, but if we did not have this forum what would we do. Lots of customers contacting Yamaha on their own, often with the same problem. This forum is a lifeline to many, me included, but it would be nice if Yamaha decided to help a bit. Videos for common operations, solving simple problems, anything really more than they do now.
Oldden

I know there are folks that use arranger keyboards to make a living. Gary, DonM and Pianoman come to mind. Why doesn't Yamaha ask these professionals to become product advocates and assist them in providing us some video tutorials. The only paid advocates I've seen spend their time giving demonstrations which IMHO aren't very useful once you own the arranger.

[Oldden]

Hi,
Some years ago I bought a Yamaha guitar, a Pacifica, and it came with a DVD, it gave you the basics, setting it up, simple chords and so on, which I did not need but it was there, then again I have a Gibson with DVD download,  same idea. So why not a Genos DVD, or these days a download, to do the same, plus a copy of basic Cubase, with instructions on the DVD or video for both. If the developers do not have the time there must be students or trainees learning their profession and who are working for Yamaha, it would be a good test of their abilities to make something useful
Oldden

[PWB]

This forum is about much more than dealing with technical queries. It is about the interaction of its members - with good humour and a genuine passion for making music. It also provides a platform for member to freely share their experiences, performances and resources to help others. It is a superb thing and I cannot praise enough Joe Waters and the other experienced musicians who have had the vision and commitment to start and maintain this site. A Big thank you from me and all the other forum members.

[travlin-easy]

Keep in mind that the Genos is brand, spanking new and in time, very short time I hope, there will be instructional videos available from forum members, such as Fred, who did the video on registrations. In reality, there is very little difference in the operating system between the Genos and Tyros series of arranger keyboards and much of the old stuff applies, along with, of course, good old common sense. More often than not, a common sense approach to the roadblocks often solves the problems without the aid of Yamaha or this forum. There are far too many individuals that never look at the first page of the owners manual, let along go through it step by step and work with every feature of this amazing keyboard. If I owned a Genos, that would be the very first thing I would do, but I'm old and crazy, so that really doesn't count for much.

All the best,

Gary 

[StuartR]

Keep in mind that the Genos is brand, spanking new and in time, very short time I hope, there will be instructional videos available from forum members, such as Fred, who did the video on registrations. In reality, there is very little difference in the operating system between the Genos and Tyros series of arranger keyboards and much of the old stuff applies, along with, of course, good old common sense. More often than not, a common sense approach to the roadblocks often solves the problems without the aid of Yamaha or this forum. There are far too many individuals that never look at the first page of the owners manual, let along go through it step by step and work with every feature of this amazing keyboard. If I owned a Genos, that would be the very first thing I would do, but I'm old and crazy, so that really doesn't count for much.

All the best,

Gary 

While I agree with you Gary, support from the generous and talented user community doesn't diminish the value or need for Yamaha to provide the kind of sophisticated technical material that only they can provide, and have done so for their other keyboard community.

[Mazeka]

Hi,
Is there anybody from Yamaha out there at the moment reading this post and would like to comment on it ? ...............it's gone very quiet.
Oldden

I am

[Mazeka]

Quick question,
Though I do live in LA, this can possible happen in other areas.

How about creating a user group that meets once a month ?

[Joe H]

Mazeka,

What do you have in mind? Where would this happen?  At the local Yamaha dealer?

Joe H

[Mazeka]

Mazeka,

What do you have in mind? Where would this happen?  At the local Yamaha dealer?

Joe H

That is a possibility of course.
I also have few ideas in my mind as for location.

What do you guys think ?

In addition, it depends on the how many are in each area .

So, the more ideas you guys have about this proposal, the better too come up with a good plan.

[StuartR]

Quick question,
Though I do live in LA, this can possible happen in other areas.

How about creating a user group that meets once a month ?

Wouldn't this limit the interaction to just those that could physically attend? Would it not be better to just add an arrangers section to the existing Yamaha forums where users who want interaction with Yamaha could "meet".

[Mazeka]

Wouldn't this limit the interaction to just those that could physically attend? Would it not be better to just add an arrangers section to the existing Yamaha forums where users who want interaction with Yamaha could "meet".

I truly think this forum is a great resource and is established with many users.
So I would say, I will be poking around here  now and then, as you know I do have a full time job at Yamaha.

Couple of thoughts.

1- I can look into hosting a webinar type of event once a month.
2- Establish user group once a month.
3- Create a section on this forum for me. There a productive helpful posting happens. My only reservations is that I have limited time and I don't want you guys to think I am ignoring your questions. Its a bit difficult to be here 24/7.

Again, this is good

[frankmusik]

@michael
@all
All depends on market and resources...

Last decades Europe was no.1 market for Tyros & co and a lot musicians don't use a forum... nor use a PC... us market was for live music and synth...
So yamaha USA did Synth Forum , Europe did  http://forum.yamaha-europe.com ....

And ca 100 other forums built by musicians in all languages. The biggest I think psr-tutorial....

In the last 10 years a lot of Keyboard forums has gone..... also Headoffice Europe don't think too much about forums...
And most companies don't have even members login in every day in her own forums...
I am only active in 5 keyboard forums ... but a member in 20? ...

Nowadays we have a lot electronic help ... but bringing people also to ask things,the learned in 2 minutes by herself years ago :-)

Forum is good for discussion and also for help, but a lot of forums are also for show.. and people fighting for her meaning...

Greetings from Germany
Frank

PS:In Germany the workshop tours - no presentation! ---Starts this weeks to learn about Genos.... we have heidrun Dolde and manni pichler in January in pforzheim.
In Germany the ways are small... so in 2-3 Hours from Swiss and Austria to us ...
some shops make workshops with professional help... so we do 20-30 a year and Travel to Keyboard spots and meetings around Germany ...

[Dromeus]

@Frank: you know that I'm well aware of all the (I would say: 3rd party) activities in Germany, workshops, keyboard "scouts", DVDs, tutorial books, local user groups with monthly meetings, the "musicando" annual meeting offering a full weekend of workshops. Some of these activities are supported by Yamaha, which is great.

@all: what I had originally in mind were some in-depth technical articles how to actually use the more advanced (or new) features the Genos offers, e.g. arpeggios, live controls, DSP power (which has been massively increased), insertion effects (now we can store parameters in the registration), and so on.

Just to give a few ideas/examples; I added some references to similar articles related to MOXF/Motif/Montage, that I found really helpful.

Genos Arpeggios Explored
https://www.yamahasynth.com/blog/arpeggios-explored

Genos Guitar (Megavoice) Arpeggio Study
https://www.yamahasynth.com/resources/guitar-arpeggio-study-moxf

Genos Introducing the Effects
http://www.yamahasynth.com/blog/introducing-the-effects
http://www.motifator.com/storage/support/EFF101_MOX.pdf

Genos Effects In-Depth: The Rotary Speaker Effect
http://www.motifator.com/index.php/support/view/the_rotary_speaker_effect

Of course, it should be a whole series on "Genos Effects In-Depth". The effects power in Genos is massive!

[Lee Batchelor]

I think the short answer is because Joe Waters created this website, and also an awful lot of people (including those at Yamaha) think the arranger keyboard is an inferior instrument to the "synth" line.  People who buy arrangers want to play vintage music... and just want PLAY rather than spend their time tweaking sounds or being creative.

If this is true, I wonder why Yamaha gave us a boat load of tools with which to tweak the Genos and Tyros keyboards? I agree, we need developer level seminars like Phil provides for the Motif and Montage. What about Peter Baartmans? He undoubtedly had to spend a ton of time getting to know the Genos before designing his demos. He's not only an excellent player but he could be a great tech guy.

I wonder if Yamaha is listening?

[Joe H]

Since there is a world-wide arranger community... I would like to offer a couple of ideas on how Yamaha Corporation can support this Forum.

1.  Write "How To"articles and post them here:  https://psrtutorial.com/music/articleHome.html

If that is not acceptable to Joe Waters or Yamaha, then I would suggest:

2.  Yamaha consider starting an "All Things Arranger" Blog and maybe Joe Water would provide a link the Yamaha blog over here:  https://psrtutorial.com/links/yamaha.html

Joe H

[StuartR]

@Frank: you know that I'm well aware of all the (I would say: 3rd party) activities in Germany, workshops, keyboard "scouts", DVDs, tutorial books, local user groups with monthly meetings, the "musicando" annual meeting offering a full weekend of workshops. Some of these activities are supported by Yamaha, which is great.

@all: what I had originally in mind were some in-depth technical articles how to actually use the more advanced (or new) features the Genos offers, e.g. arpeggios, live controls, DSP power (which has been massively increased), insertion effects (now we can store parameters in the registration), and so on.

Just to give a few ideas/examples; I added some references to similar articles related to MOXF/Motif/Montage, that I found really helpful.

Genos Arpeggios Explored
https://www.yamahasynth.com/blog/arpeggios-explored

Genos Guitar (Megavoice) Arpeggio Study
https://www.yamahasynth.com/resources/guitar-arpeggio-study-moxf

Genos Introducing the Effects
http://www.yamahasynth.com/blog/introducing-the-effects
http://www.motifator.com/storage/support/EFF101_MOX.pdf

Genos Effects In-Depth: The Rotary Speaker Effect
http://www.motifator.com/index.php/support/view/the_rotary_speaker_effect

Of course, it should be a whole series on "Genos Effects In-Depth". The effects power in Genos is massive!

Excellent. Those of you who think Yamaha arranger owners already have all they need from Yamaha go take a look at what they provide their synth owners (links above). It's night and day from what we get, art least here in North America. I think I've seen two or maybe three demonstrations given at US based music stores. They are of little or no value once you own the product. We need some video tutorials/workshops.

If you don't ask, you often don't receive. So I'm asking!😁

[Joe H]

Dromeus,

Many on this Forum are well aware of the Motif support.  I've even converted a couple of those on-line tutorials to PDF and posted them last year on this forum.

I think we all agree Yamaha should provide similar support to the arranger community.



Regards,
Joe H

[Lee Batchelor]

I vote that we create our own instructional videos and send Yamaha the bill. Can we agree that $300 (Canadian) per hour for development time should suffice? We may find it a bit of a challenge to collect but I'd still send them an invoice. There are enough brilliant minds on this forum that we can do that .

Seriously, it's time Yamaha woke up and realized that the machines they've created satisfy TWO types of players: the home player and the stage player. Both types deserve advanced level instruction. I'd bet my entire net worth that even the "sit at home and turn the Genos on once in a while just to play a few tunes to warm my heart" types occasionally venture into the depths of EQ, Effects, and even style creation. When Yamaha does not create these videos, they are prejudging that audience. Bad move!! Every stage player here started out as a home player.

Yamaha should not underestimate any Genos user's knowledge level. After all, when even the most basic player finds an advanced level task that seems to come easy to him or her, they are delighted with their new find. Their playing level moves up a notch or two as well.

I play professionally, but I have an undying respect for those who invest the big money in an arranger just to sit and play at home. Hats off to you folks  . You and us pro stage players all deserve advanced level instruction. If you choose to stay at a very basic level, that should be your choice, not the company whose bills you pay!!!

[Joe H]

Lee,

Lets not give Yamaha the impression that we only want support for the Genos... there are many other models of arranger keyboards, and essentially operate the same way using the same concepts and internal architecture.



Joe H