Required. Felt Piano.vce

[Graham UK]

I have downloaded and used many VCE files on my DGX670.
QUESTION. I would like a Felt Piano.vce  Of the many vce's downloaded I can't find Felt Piano.

I beleive Genos 2 has a felt Piano within its Piano voices.
Will a kind Genos 2 owner use the keyboards Voice Set to save the
FELT PIANO Please...Voice Set will save it as a vce.

It won't be perfect on DGX670 but would like to test the results.

[marco]

hello

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ben

[Graham UK]

marco. Felt Piano.vce file Appreciate.

[Graham UK]

Marco. Re Felt Piano...Now having tried it on my DGX670 it does sound very good.
Similar infact to DGX670 Ambient Piano.

Again appreciated for sharing.

[bpsafran]

The .vce files only set up the reverb, chorus, effect, eq information for the voice.  If your instrument does not contain (in its hardware or expansion memory) the extensive wave information, then the .vce file is not useful. I believe the felt piano in the Genos2 relies on its own set of waves in the hardware, similar to the new CFX in the Genos2 and those cannot be copied or shared.

[DerekA]

Very true bsafran.

But there is some debate to be had over how much of the final sound comes from the underlying sample and how much comes from the specific settings around filter, resonance, effects, etc. There are loads of piano voices on the Genos, many of them share the base sample and just tweak the voice set.

Not saying the G2 does *not* have a dedicated felt piano sample, but if it does, I doubt its that different to the one used for CFX / C7

[mikf]

I really doubt if Yamaha did an actual sampling for felt piano. In fact 'felt piano' is really piano with much of the natural 'piano sound' removed. So I would expect that as Graham has found, the original sample is not that important. It's all the subtle dampening that makes it a 'felt' piano. And that is probably more easily done  electronically than by modifying an expensive piano.
Mike

[Bill]

Very true bsafran.

But there is some debate to be had over how much of the final sound comes from the underlying sample and how much comes from the specific settings around filter, resonance, effects, etc. There are loads of piano voices on the Genos, many of them share the base sample and just tweak the voice set.

Does it REALLY matter,  to my mind all that maters is, it a likeable voices that the keyboard owner is happy to use.  I have to say I like the sound and use it frequently. It is an nice and welcome addition to the G2.

Bill

[BogdanH]

Does it REALLY matter...

It does in this case (see below).

..to my mind all that maters is, it a likeable voices that the keyboard owner is happy to use.  I have to say I like the sound and use it frequently. It is an nice and welcome addition to the G2.

I agree completely: that is, it IS a welcome addition to the G2 -but sadly (for non G2 owners), this voice (wave samples) only exists on G2.

I don't have Genos2 and so I might be wrong.. still, here's my conclusion (why it doesn't sound as expected on Graham's keyboard):

FeltPiano voice on Genos2 has the following MSB-LSB-PCn values: 104-047-001. And this voice doesn't exist on: DGX-670, PSR-SXnnn, Tyros or Genos1. That is, among arrangers, it only exist on Genos2.

Those who said, that many times a single "normal" voice (wave) is used for many variations of that voice (by simply using different global voice settings), are correct -Yamaha is quite famous for that.

But I think this is not the case for FeltPiano on Genos2. That is, it's possible that the same samples are used as for some other "normal" piano, but if that's the case, then the sound was changed by using Elements (layers) settings (in YEM) -these settings are part of actual voice.

Why is that important? Because these settings don't exist in voice (vce) files. And because they don't exist, vce file is useless for keyboards that don't have 104-047-001 voice.

Why I think that's the case here? That's because we usually "imitate" felt piano by using setting Filter: CutOff (in Voice Edit) for that. For example CutOff -10 can make quite a difference.
But I have checked and the thing is, in FeltPiano.vce, this setting is set to zero! -and so it doesn't sound "felt" at all to Graham.

Summary: That's a good example for why many say (incl. me), that it makes no sense to use vce files, if actual voice (wave samples) doesn't exist on keyboard.

Bogdan

[mikf]

Bogdan, I think you misread Graham's post. He actually said it sounded quite good. And that's not really surprising because of all the reasons several have given. The dampening and cut offs they applied to the piano voice on the G2 will have similar results on other piano voices. The difference in piano voices is not that great to begin with, and once you add some dampening, the original voice difference will hardly be noticeable. Maybe detectable using sensitive meters and instruments  - but to the human ear, probably not.
Mike

[aprilla]

The difference in piano voices is not that great to begin with, and once you add some dampening, the original voice difference will hardly be noticeable. Maybe detectable using sensitive meters and instruments  - but to the human ear, probably not.
Mike

If you think about it, it's like with real pianos. I have one, you have another, they sound slightly different though both sound like pianos. But we can both use our damper pedals to effect the sound we have. Sometimes it's enough.

[BogdanH]

Bogdan, I think you misread Graham's post. He actually said it sounded quite good. ...

I noticed what Graham said.. It might sound good, but because of the reasons I've mentioned, it simply can not sound like a felt piano.
But then I neither have Genos2 nor DGX-670 

Greetings, Bogdan

[mikf]

There really is no such thing as the sound of felt piano. It originated with the practice of putting a piece of felt in between hammers and strings in conventional pianos to quieten them down when practicing. So of course the actual sound produced had no real identity, and depended on the state of maintenance of the hammers, the thickness of the felt and not that much on the original sound of the piano.
Then someone decided they liked that sort of very quiet dampened sound and used it on some recordings. It became fashionable so people started to try and produce a similar sound on electronic instruments. There is no gold standard or defined sound. It's just about whether you like it, a bit like the huge variety of synth sounds.
 In practice, achieving it electronically simply involves removing a lot of the natural resonance and string sound from the original sample. And these are the main elements that make pianos sound different to each other. So within reason, the base sample used probably makes little difference. It's just whether the player personally likes the finished result.
Mike

[Amwilburn]

If Graham likes the sound, great! But I can assure you, having the G2, DGX670, PSRsx900/sx700/sx920/sx720, CVP909, and until recently an 805 and a 705, that it's a completely different sample.

There is *no* muting or dampening applied to the G2 sample; all the values for felt piano are 0 across the board (in terms of modifying the sound).

And I plopped the vce (I'd already emailed the G2 vce's to pjd to see if he could make any heads or tails, including the FM vce files (they're not actually vce, new filetype, but anyway) that it sounds nothing like the felt piano on G2; all it does on the sx920-sx700, CVP909 is use add a *ton* of reverb to the legacy piano
.
However, if you take the legacy concert grand in sx series, and mute the resonance and brightness as I'd instructed elsewhere, you do get a sound that's reasonably close.

And having said all that, checking out the vce's isn't necessarily fruitless; I was shocked to find the CVP809/909 actually *do* have the C7 from Genos as a hidden voice, of all things. So, you never know.

Mark