The Real Issue with Arranger Keyboards video from Woody

[richkeys]

https://youtu.be/-HDSh2PRh0o?si=gJfZqxg2GzQQxILM

Wood Piano Shack has this new video out. His main gripe with arranger keyboards (Yamaha & Korg) is that all the presets are based on specific songs and therefore that makes them very limiting to play on. He also thinks style creation should be the main feature on future arranger keyboards.

I have to disagree with this analysis. Of course there are lots of presets based on existing songs, however in my opinion any of the presets can be played and enjoyed with any song as long as the time signature matches. Could there be a larger selection of generic styles in the presets? Perhaps, but maybe Woody is not aware of the large number of Yamaha styles out there than can be used as starting points. Could style creation be improved? Probably, but not sure UI design improvements, as he suggests, will make that endeavor any easier for those who never tried making a style themselves.

Curious to get some other reactions here to this video.

Rich

[ChrisH]

Hey Rich

Good post and sadly this guy is wrong and mainly because most people WANT to play songs they know and don't want the hassle of trying to create a unique style UNLESS they are composing an original song with original backing that is completely different to mainstream songs (and has to be for copyright issues if they want to market it) 

Sorry Woody but users enjoy playing songs they know and I actually have nearly 2000 songstyles that I love playing and they are totally specific to just the song in the title. Most musos will do covers so that means songs that people already know. If you REALLY want to be different it's so simple to change a song and make it upbeat to be different. All one has to do is google (for instance" Cottonfields") and see how many different versions exist and how different they are.  Imagine if you bought a pretty standard keyboard  in the budget consumer range (like around $500 max)and every style was impossible to match to a song you know. You would soon get sick of it!!   Silly argument from Woody!!

[mikf]

A high proportion of intros are definitely modeled after well known songs, but I don't think that matters to the main accompaniment, which can nearly always be adapted for a wide variety of songs. I hardly ever  use the packaged intros anyway, especially the more elaborate ones, for that very reason. And I suspect that's true of most experienced musicians ....like Woody! They play their own intros, more attuned to the song they are about to play.
At the same time the, less experienced musicians who are clearly in the majority buying these arranger keyboards, probably like and use the intros, especially to begin with, and it is part of the attraction to buy.
And I say this yet again, Yamaha knows the market, while Woody is focused on himself and experienced players like him...who are definitely not in the majority buying arrangers.
Mike

[Divemaster]

And you've both just highlighted perfectly the reason that I still keep, and enjoy playing my SX700.
I can dial up pretty well most of the songs that I like to play with the SX. I've got playlists from about 15 other keyboards, styles by the hundred, and somewhere, without too much searching, I can quickly find a backing track for what I want to play. So all in all I'm totally happy with it.

But some months ago, I had misgivings about what I was playing. I was getting almost bored.
Three spells in hospital shook me up badly, and I almost lost my life.

And when I got home, I decided to re-invigorate my playing. I also woke up to the old saying "You can't take it with you". Having already made adequate provision for my family, I treated myself to a Korg Pa5X. I also bought the PAAS Mk2 speaker system. One thing I hate is trailing cables, and the speaker system eliminates that.

So I view Woodys latest video in a more relaxed way.

I will never be a professional musician. I'm getting on for 78 now, with my share of old physical injuries and eyesight issues, and only wish these sort of keyboards had been around when I first started out. But I haven't lost my mind yet. I still have the ability to learn, and learn quite quickly.

One of the plus sides to the Korg is that the Songbook is very limited compared to the Yamaha. And that's been the kick up the backside I needed. I am now beginning to adapt and change styles and keyboard sets and liven up my playing in a way that I could never have previously imagined. I'm out of the rut! So much to explore.

I wondered if I'd be able to adapt to the completely different Operating system. I wondered about straying from systems I'd used for the last year's. In short, I did a lot of deep soul searching to convince myself that I even wanted to go this route. And I decided... Yes... I did! Time to leave the comfort zone! Time to strike out and get those grey cells jumping!

So my take on Woodys video is balanced. I don't see any problem in using Arranger keyboards in whichever way you choose to use them. Bottom line is that we all play differently, we all have different capabilities and expectations, and we all could learn more.

I love both my arrangers equally. I find the SX700 very relaxing to play, and I am happily competent using it at the level I have reached.

On the other hand, my Pa5X has been an absolute monster to learn about, but SO enjoyable to play, explore and work with. It has renewed my interests in creative music composition like never before.

So be happy with whatever you play. Enjoying playing is what it's all about. Make your own rules, adapt things to suit your own way of playing, and use all the videos as guides rather than rules.

Keith

[ChrisH]

Great story Keith

I turn 78 in two months so I adopted the "you can't take it with you" so I found myself a really nice Tyros 4 (I know it sound like a downgrade as I sold my SX900) but the Tyros has a huge learning curve and I loved that fact to keep my aging mind sharp!!  Now I still have an S650 arranger which is around 12 years old I think and yes it DOES have a style creator so I'm sure all the subsequent arrangers would have one SO as a user you DO have a choice ..ignore the styles and make your own or use the presets ..whichever suits you. The same goes for the music finder system ..I don't use mine at all but if I want to it's there for me too.   As far as I know some of the cheaper e series keyboards don't have a style creator but they do have a lesson learning system so there really is something for everyone ...most cars you drive has a cigarette lighter so if you don't smoke you don't use it BUT it's there for those to use if they want to.   For Yamaha its all about giving the customer what they want so they sell their product.

I'm happy with current layouts and I did actually have an E-373 for a while but never used the lesson system so use whatever takes your fancy ..if keyboards came only with a style creator Woody might be happy but not many others would be!!! 

Chris

[Amwilburn]

Chris: If you had said s970, or tyros 5, then definitely it would have been an upgrade, as the s970 is based off a Tyros 4 minus the S.Art 2 sounds, and likewise, the sx900 is based on the T5, but again, minus the S.Art 2 sounds (but the addition of stripped down, "Live" compatible versions of Revo drums). So not a full downgrade, more like a sidegrade (the T4/T5 also have nicer keys, and a tilting screen over the sx900)

Mark

[richkeys]

Good comments.  It's good to get some rebuttals here because many of his YouTube commenters are agreeing with him. I suspect most of those commenters are experienced synth owners rather than arranger keyboard owners.

I thought that Woody didn't think this one through before making the video and that he came across as not knowing what he was talking about. I know that's harsh criticism because I do like the enthusiasm and energy in his videos.

His "embrace the cheese" comment about arrangers is cute but off base. There are plenty of parameters on our arranger keyboards we can change to avoid that. He even did an SX900 demo a few years ago where he quickly and efficiently mixed a style for a synthwave type sound that he seems to like. His speculation that style creation and more integration with PC applications is the "future of arranger keyboards" also lacks understanding of Yamaha's arranger target market, as MikeF explained above. He would need to clarify if "future" means next keyboard release or if it means 10 years from now.

Rich

[ChrisH]

Thanks Mark

I only considered it a downgrade cos the SX900 came out later (about 9 years where we were!) but it's certainly an upgrade for me compared to the older S650    Used keyboards are like hens teeth over here!  Plenty of E series of course but not many arrangers!

Chris

[Denn]

Statement from Denn: The Tyros 4 is, and has been the best keyboard ever made. I bought mine new 12 years ago, traded in my PSR S900. Since then I have had a Genos1 for 26 days and that went back, my SX900 went to a needy person and now I have the SX700. Still have the Tyros 4. and my PSR S970
I mostly use the on board styles, maybe changing the voices (I HATE that harp in a style!) as Yamaha have produced the styles to match the keyboard, they are good at that. As it is, there are thousands of styles out there if you really need something different. When I first started with an arranger it was the PSR1100. I collected styles like there was no tomorrow. Recently, cleaning up my portable H/D I deleted – 15000 styles!
Summing up; if you are a good musician and know exactly what you want then use the on board style creator or a third party program. I have yet to come across a song where I can't fit an on board style to make it sound reasonable. As an addition, there is the midi part and multi-pads to supplement the style. Well that's my take on the subject. Denn.

[ChrisH]

Hi Denn

You made my day!!  I have been looking for a Tyros 4 for ages and 2 weeks ago I found one in pristine condition. Currently coming over from our East Coast so I'm eagerly awaiting it's arrival next week.   Glad you love it too and yes I sold my SX900 after a few months and despite it being a current model I do still think it's nowhere near the Tyros 4.   So many people here have already said they would never sell their Tyros ..and I guess that's why I struggled to find a used one.  Yep this is also be a keeper!!

Chris

[motekmusic]

Hello

Watched the Woody video on how arrangers pretty much  focus on song specific styles.   Am sort of out of the loop and have latched
on to maybe a few of the newer tunes,, turned 78 and pretty much still play 60' 70's... standards, lots of world tunes,, light classics
   Always happy to find a style that could work generic for several tunes.  Its a struggle to
find something to fit some of the newer ones and appreciate downloading some of the style files here on the forum that seemd
pretty "parve" neither here nor there.   Also am not a techie so do not spend anytime on style creator and just rely on quick fixes
such as canceling certain style channels or substituting a different voice.    Also live here in Israel so folks like to hear  more
oriental and folk tunes or modern israeli, which do not know.  So the styles have to work for all kinds of genres.   Lounge piano hard sell here...
Thanks for posting and commenting on that video.

cheers
elaine

[BogdanH]

I quite like watching Woody's videos. But sometimes not only I disagree with him, it also happens that he's wrong in what he's saying.. because (I assume) he didn't make enough research, or he's just using keyboard as it is.
Video Arrangers SUCK Playing Bass! is such an example. Here he says that no arranger has "walk-in" (in style) into next chord bass sequence (or any other voice) because keyboard can't know which chord we're about to play -is true so far. But his conclusion is wrong: he says "walk-in" (into next chord) can not be done in styles, which makes arrangers kind of inferior.

The thing is, this can be done. But of course, we need to tell the keyboard (while playing) what walk-in we wish: up or down.
Here's a short video that I made to demonstrate that: Chord lead-in
As you can see in that video, I sacrificed two chord types (sus2 and sus4 -which I don't use anyway), so that while playing, I can tell the keyboard which lead-in it should play.
This simple example is made for piano, however the technique can be used for any voice (incl. bass guitar).

About the video mentioned in this topic... I'm not sure what he's complaining about. Woody says that styles should be more generic, so that player would have more options to adapt/customize styles for song specific music. But at the same time he complains that current way of creating/customizing styles is difficult and complicated.
Well, everything is difficult and looks complicated if we don't know how to do it. Keyboard can not read our mind.. we need to tell it what we wish to make -and for that, certain effort is required.

But from what I can observe at least in this forum, majority wish song specific styles... so that we can just start playing the melody.

Just my 2c,
Bogdan

[DrakeM]

Wow ... ol' Woody has received over 5,900 views in one day. He posts about 10 videos a month. This is a great side hustle for him apparently (I guess).

He must own or work for a music store and has extra time to put all these videos out each month. I have see a couple other videos not this one however. As he doesn't solve any problems. These are just click bait / time killer watches.      Great if that is your thing to watch.

But if you want to really become Wealthy (Woody), you simply spend less than you make. Then invest in the S&P 500 and go about your life, otherwise you will always be working (period).

[RayClem]

I like Woody's videos and do tend to agree with this one.

I lived through all the music eras of the last half of the 20th century, so I recognize many of the song specific styles of the Genos2. However, as I am playing for my own enjoyment rather than the entertainment of others, I seldom use any of the styles. Like Woody, I wish there were more "generic" styles that would allow me to improvise on the keyboard. If anyone can suggest such styles that I might have missed, please let me know.

[mikf]

I am really not sure what people mean here. I find most styles to be quite generic. I don't even think about what song the style maker might have had in mind.
Mike

[BogdanH]

... I find most styles to be quite generic.

I think the same. Of course, if there's some rhythm (and it always is), then the style will maybe remind us on some song for which we could use the style -but that's pretty much it.

Bogdan

[kpblues]

I like Woody's videos.
They're light hearted and it's informative to see Yamaha and other keyboards demonstrated by a good player.   
Indeed, it was watching his videos that influenced my choice of early keyboards, particularly the PSR970 where he did some great videos of the styles.

He doesn't work for a music store (He works in IT) & receives no sponsorship other than YouTube subscribe click revenue so he's independent.
He did though attend the Genos 2 launch and Yamaha lent him a Genos 2 temporarily but he was very fair (pros/cons) in his reviews of it.   

His comments have merit but there is a caveat.

There are lots of pre-set song specific styles and, as he says, some extra general ones would be nice.
Style creator is not the easiest thing to use and the Midi to style app is not so good. Easy to use but low on quality.

Having said that he has underestimated just how many styles can be obtained elsewhere that provide a base for other songs.

He also has hugely missed the power of excellent forums such as this where tons of general styles are made available by hard working forum members. (Thank you!)

So keep doing the videos Woody but I am happy with what's on offer !

 

Kelvin

[bpsafran]

Selectively turning off certain style tracks and adding
multipads, different ones for different registrations,
even within one bank (song), help to make the style your
own even with no style editing.

[andyg]

I also find most of the styles generic in nature. Intros and Endings are often very suggestive of particular songs, but I never use anything other than Ending 1, and always teach my students how to create their own intros, which then become suggestive of the tune they're playing!

And surely one of the points of arranger keyboards is for the player to do some arranging of their own, not necessarily to just copy or emulate the original. Sure, there are times when I do a copy of an instrumental hit - Apache and Albatross spring to mind, and there are great third party song-specific styles for them - but most times, I'll choose a style that I think will work and arrange the piece to fit, or I'll run the piece through in my head or in piano style and then choose the likely candidate(s) for the style.

[orangeman]

With all the millions of songs that have been written, does anybody expect that a bunch of Yamaha and Korg programmers are going to just write a bunch styles that don't correlate to anything that has ever been written? Even the artists themselves are influenced by each other! And if such a product existed, I don't think it would sell well.

Just mute certain tracks, don't use the intros and endings, change the tempo and you will have unlimited possibilities.

I'm guessing within the next 5-10 years, AI will be the answer. "Give me a Phill Collins ballad with Prince percussion, and Talking Heads style bass"

[KurtAgain]

I'm guessing within the next 5-10 years, AI will be the answer. "Give me a Phill Collins ballad with Prince percussion, and Talking Heads style bass"

"And correct the mistakes I keep making when playing this song. Oh, and while you're at it, make my playing seem a little more professional."

Kurt

[Denn]

I have just had a listen to my SX700 and posted this on Woody's page.
What a load of rubbish! I have been playing Yamaha from my first one, the PSR 1100, the PSR S900, Now my Tyros 4, SX700, PSR S970 and I have had a Genos1 and SX900. I play ALL my music with on board styles except for a few special stiles that I have obtained. I am 85 years old and I don't recognise any specific song with any of the on board styles. (However, it must be very difficult to play RAP on any instrument.) The problem has been around since the first musical instrument came into use. I want this, that and the other. I first noticed this with my S900 so Yamaha made the S910. MORE wanted, hence the S950, S970 and S975. It is the same with the Tyros and Genos. Not satisfied, must have a Genos 3, or 4 or 5 et al. I am a musician to play MUSIC not a computer programmer. If you really want something different then buy the bits and make it yourself.   
Regards D

[Oldden]

I know it's never going to happen but it's a shame that Yamaha and Band in a Box never got to work together. Design the song with styles in BIAB and send it to your keyboard. Yes I know they are totally different in design, but it would have been quite something.

[DerekA]

I don't totally agree with Woody but he does make a fair point.

When the Genos 2 came out, and I heard a lot of the new styles, they were clearly based on specific songs. So he is right about that. But usually it's intro 3 that is the giveaway. If you use intro 1, and selectively switch on/off parts, the styles are more useable.

I've dabbled in style creation but it's difficult to get a good result. So I think there is merit in some kind of simpler UI that gives a little bit of help to make new styles. I don't know what that would look like. But I'm thinking of some kind of smarter "style assembly" where you can say roughly what you want for each part and it will pull in something suitable. It's about making it more accessible by making it simpler.

[mikf]

Oldden- I am no expert on band in a box, but I see it as a way to make music without playing. Useful for some people, but I see the arranger as a musical instrument - a way to make music by playing.
Derek - this was exactly my point earlier in the thread, and echoed by Andyg, some intros may be inspired by specific songs but the main variations are very generic. Just don't use the complicated intros. Use intro 1 to get the style started smoothly then play your own intro, or skip them completely.
Frankly, I see the more complex intros and endings as exactly how I see band in a box, a way to make music without playing. I'm a musician, I want to play, not listen to a machine playing while I sit and wait.
Mike

[Oldden]

I was thinking of the two companies working together , possibly  live in some form . BIAB being able to read Yamaha styles and vice versa to give a better way of making music, as I said no chance of it ever happening and as you said  BIAB today is not suitable, but if years ago there was a way to work together in a new program who knows what might have happened.

[ChrisH]

hey Denn

Good on you for being brave enough to post on Woody's page and yes I agree with you AND I am also a computer programmer BUT not for music. I think the overall point here that is being bypassed is that Yamaha is a business and their job is to sell keyboards and LOT'S of them to make a profit so the average buyer wants something that makes music that is simple to use (I would suspect their biggest sellers are the E Series as they are affordable and even help you play)   Sure produce a keyboard where you have to create your own styles from scratch and how many would you sell. Certainly not enough to even pay for the R & D and manufacture. If you want a unique bare bones instrument where you have to do everything then what is wrong with an upright piano!!

[J. Larry]

If AI infiltrates the arranger market in a big way, maybe we could just speak to it.  "Gimme a swing style at 120.  Drums, bass, and guitar.  Leave off the horns."

[pjd]

Finally looked at the video and skimmed through this thread.

Woody is a Youtube entertainer. Notice, I didn't say music entertainer. He's not a bad chap, but yet another social media "personality", i.e., no real job.

As to his opinion on arrangers, he is living in a box of his own devising. Repurpose the existing styles to interpret songs in new ways. Be creative.

As to style creation, you could have the best tools in the world and it would still be a difficult, time-consuming task to get it right. I've built styles from scratch and with musical phrases using a DAW and Jørgen Sørensen's tools. As Heratch Touresian (Yamaha) told me, it takes both technical and musical skills to make a good style. Both require study and discipline.

Plus, Woody didn't even mention the new Yamaha MIDI Song to Style tool. Buzzzzzzzzzz.

I don't have time to watch 12 minute videos of ranting and raving. That's what this Forum is for.

Peace -- pj

[pjd]

Oh, yeah, another thing Woody left out -- the ability to re-mix existing style patterns into a new style. This is the fast way to learn about style creation and get a working result. Unfortunately the Yamaha Reference Manuals give this subject short shrift. This is called "style assembly", BTW.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mi9BfAcD05M

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgGatUmhVqw

Does style assembly work? Consider the Montage/MODX Performance patterns. Montage/MODX stole a zillion style patterns from Yamaha arrangers and rearranged them into new musical "songs." Again, the work of some creative musicians at Yamaha or one of its contractors.

If you'd like to try styles created from Montage/MODX Performances, please see the link below.

Take care -- pj

https://sandsoftwaresound.net/free-performance-styles-of-psr-genos/