Expansion Manager displays incorrect voice WAV size

[Jacky001]

Hello.
I'm currently creating voices for my SX900 for the first time.
Problem: If I import a 100mb sample into a Normal Voice, Expansion Manager calculates 200mb for the Voice WAV Size. Always exactly twice as much. Why? I cannot import more than 500mb of my wav samples, otherwise an error message appears. Although SX900 has 1GB memory.
If I save the pack on my PC hard drive, it has the correct, understandable size. As a keyboard installation file, it is always twice as large. This error occurs on versions 2.10.0 and 2.6.0.
Thanks in advance

[danand]

Hi Jacky001
To be honest I never had a similar problem the last 6-7 years working with YEM, so unfortunately I can't provide a quick solution or answer.

I have a question though: WHERE in YEM you see the "Voice WAV size" ?
I can't  see anywhere this indication...
There is a "Voice Wave Size" meter when you select one of the instruments on the left column as a "target", but this is the size for the FULL Installation Pack not for individual voices (of course you can have Installation Pack with only one voice, so... yes if you do your calculations this way then I can see...)
So double check that you select ONLY the sound - voice you want to meter the size and there is not anything else selected from other packs.

Waiting your answer, I suggest you to remove the Install Target for your SX900 from YEM and install it again, better export the Instrument Info file (.n27) again from your SX, import it to YEM and try again...


Edit: Minor inconsistencies regarding "Install Target" and "Instrument Info file" (.n27) corrected by overover

[BogdanH]

hello Jacky,
100MB sample?? A sample of 10sec duration, which is considered as long, has size of 1.7MB.. I'm just curious: what for you use 100MB? Or do you mean the voice size (sum of all samples)?

Btw. YEM is quite buggy in this regard: it doesn't (always) update the bar info which shows the size. But if you create *.ppi" install file, then after that, the bar info should be updated with correct size.

Bogdan

[Jacky001]

I created 10 test samples (exactly 100mb each) to understand how yem reacts when I fill up the memory. Only 5 normal voices (500mb) and the "voice wav size" shows over 1GB and is in the red (installation file cannot be created).
Interestingly, this is not the case in the drum voice. I can import all 10 samples there. voice size correctly shows under 1GB and installation file can be created.
This fact is not addressed in the operating instructions. I can't find anything online either. Very strange.

PS I've been creating voices with the emu 6400 sampler for ages. It didn't matter whether it was a single key or the entire keyboard. 1mb sample = 1mb size

[overover]

Welcome to the PSR Tutorial Forum, Jacky,

In which format are the wave files used: 44.1 kHz / 16-bit / stereo or mono?


Best regards,
Chris

[Jacky001]

16bit 44.1 stereo...
Renewing the .n27 info file didn't help...
yes, the info bar reacts a bit buggy...
I wrote an email to Yamaha. Maybe it's just that a normal voice needs exactly twice as much memory as its wav sample. for whatever reason

[BogdanH]

No Jacky. For example, if you import 3MB sample in voice (YEM), then the size of voice will be 3MB.. and the install voice (pack) will also be 3MB (+overhead for voice settings).

Bogdan

[Jacky001]

Well, I don't understand why it doesn't work here. Brand new win 11 laptop.  latest yem version. reinstalled it 4 times now. all app data deleted. the same error. 100mb in normal voice results in a 200mb installation pack. 100mb in a drum voice results in a 100mb installation pack...
The only way that works is to first create a drum voice and put the sample on a key. Now create a normal voice and load the same sample. and delete the drum voice. That worked. ppi=100mb. but what a terrible workflow. hopefully Yamaha has an idea what it could be. it sucks. Been busy for 2 days now

[overover]

Welcome to the PSR Tutorial Forum, Jacky001!

I just tried what you wrote (YEM V2.10.0 under Windows 10 64-bit, with the Install Targets PSR-SX900 and SX700 as well as Genos1 and Genos2). I used a wave file (44.1 kHz, 16-bit, stereo) with about 150 MB.

First I created a new Normal Voice and imported the wave file. Result: The voice has a Voice Wave size of about 300 MB.

Now I created a Drum voice and imported the same wave file. Result: Both voices together still take up 300 MB, but the Drum voice alone only takes up the correct 150 MB. The saved Pack Install files (.ppi) for all of the above-mentioned Install Targets have the size that was previously displayed as the voice wave size, i.e. incorrectly 300 MB for the Normal Voice and the correct 150 MB for the Drum Voice.

Now I looked in the YEM User folder and opened the relevant Pack folder (in this case "C:\Users\<Username>\AppData\Local\Yamaha\Expansion Manager\Packs\{85563a98-5bcd-4b95-ad05-a337ae80d62f}). There I found the wave data as two (cryptically named) files, each with 75 MB, so a total of 150 MB. No trace of the additional 150 MB that are displayed in YEM.

So there is definitely a serious bug in YEM V2.10.0 that Yamaha should fix as soon as possible.


P.S.
Another bug in YEM 2.10.0, which we also recently discussed here in the forum, is that ASIO audio drivers no longer work (e.g. the well-known "ASIO4ALL" driver and also the "Yamaha Steinberg USB Driver" that comes with Genos2). Yamaha definitely needs to fix this as well.
>>> https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,69563.msg523375.html#msg523375


Best regards,
Chris

[danand]

Hi, today I receive a message from the Yamaha "Specialist" after my messages questioning the ASIO drivers problem.
No reason to copy-paste the exact words, the spirit is something like this:
"YEM 2.10 works just fine, it is that you're an idiot and can't put it to work as expected"

The  Yamaha "Specialist" on support responsible for YEM 2.10 said that EVERYTHING WORKS PERFECT !!!!
NO reason to fix anything !!!!

SAME on you Yamaha (once again)

[Jacky001]

Oh man. Expansion Manager has been around for 8 years and is so buggy? I would like to create and sell packs in the future. I have absolutely no use for such software errors. There doesn't seem to be an alternative to yem. At least I didn't find anything. I'm trying to work around the bug today. I first import all the samples into a drum voice. Each key a sample. Then yem "registers" the samples correctly. Then create normal voices with the same samples (YEM recognizes that they are the same samples. The wave size does not increase. Not even if the sample is renamed. probably with a checksum or something). Nevertheless: Yamaha really annoys me

[Jacky001]

No, unfortunately it doesn't work. normal voice is always twice as big as it should be. I give up. I'm still waiting for a response from Yamaha. Otherwise I can only create drum kits. Create Voices make no sense like that. sad

[BogdanH]

Just to put some clarity about all this...
I have quickly created a new pack with one voice (17 samples which have total size of 16.4MB) and yes, as I have mentioned in this thread, Voice Wave Size shows wrong size (28MB).
But if I change bar info to Pack Install File Size then correct size (17MB) is shown. And as I have mentioned, actual install pack (ppi) has correct size of 16.6MB.

That is, YEM works correct in this regard -wrong size is only shown if Voice Wave Size is selected.

Bogdan

[Jacky001]

Yes, I know that the bar info shows incorrect values. Unfortunately for me it's still the case: the exported ppi installation file is definitely twice as large as it should be. I just tested it again. When I save the pack on the PC hard drive it is the correct size 100MB. if I load it back into yem and export it as an installation file = 200mb.

[overover]

Hi Jacky,

Instead of creating a voice completely in YEM, i.e. importing wave files directly into YEM and mapping them there, you could also create/map the voice first as a Soundfont (.sf2), e.g. in a program like Viena64 or Polyphone. The .sf2 voice file can then be imported into a pack in YEM "as content" and finalized there. Some professional programmers of packs for YEM-compatible Yamaha keyboards that I know work in this way.

This might be a way to avoid this annoying "double wave size" problem with normal voices. But I haven't tested it with YEM 2.10 yet.

>>> http://www.synthfont.com/index.html
>>> http://www.synthfont.com/Downloads.html

>>> https://www.polyphone-soundfonts.com/


Best regards,
Chris

[Jacky001]

thanks for the tip. soundfond is a good idea. rex files can also be loaded, I think I read it somewhere...
otherwise maybe something is wrong with my .n27

[Jacky001]

YAMAHA SUPPORT REPLIED:

...We have already informed our colleagues in Japan that the "Yamaha Expansion Manager" provides misleading storage information under certain conditions. Our colleagues in Japan were also able to recreate this behavior and thus confirm it. Hopefully this problem will be resolved in a future update of the "Yamaha Expansion Manager".

Best regards Yamaha Customer Service & Support

[Jacky001]

Yes hopefully 

[Jacky001]

Yamaha answers the memory doubling:

...thank you very much for the additional information.

We tested the following:
Wave generated with 100 MB. New custom voice created with this wave.
Result: The memory specification differs from the wave size (doubled).
The installation file is approximately 150 MB in size.

We are passing on the information and closing the case for now, as the results of the investigation cannot be expected until the next YEM update. Please understand that we do not receive any feedback or interim results on individual points.

We thank you very much for your help and patience!

[Jacky001]

Yamaha's file is 50% too large. incomprehensible. How should I create expansion packs for customers if the installation files are always different sizes? This becomes a gamble, especially with keyboards with little memory, such as the sx600 (100mb).

[overover]

Hi Jacky,

I have just tested importing wave files into a Normal Voice and the resulting voice wave size and the size of the resulting pack install files (.ppi) in YEM V2.10.0 again:

With a wave file size of 10, 20, 60 and 80 MB, the correct voice wave size is displayed in YEM, and the size of the pack install file is also correct.


With a wave file size of 100 MB, it depends on the following:

If the wave file is only mapped to one or a few keys after importing into the Normal Voice (e.g. an octave), the displayed voice wave size and the size of the .ppi file are also CORRECT.

If the imported wave file is NOT mapped to specific keys, but left on the complete note range "C-2 (0) to G8 (127)", the DOUBLE voice wave size is displayed and the size of the .ppi file is also DOUBLED.

So the whole thing is pretty strange. On the other hand, this "double size" problem should not actually occur with "normal-sized" individual samples of a multisample, which are each mapped, as usual, to only one or a few keys.


Best regards,
Chris

[BogdanH]

Chris,
Thank you for making more detailed experiment and reporting results.
In my opinion, there's no issue at all.. I mean who would create a voice with a sample covering the whole keybed??

Bogdan

[danand]

I mean who would create a voice with a sample covering the whole keybed??

Many sound creators and for many different reasons!

Most of users thing about "strings", "sax" and "flute" sounds, where, I agree, you need as many samples as possible in order to achieve the best result trying to IMITATE a natural sound.
But if you have only one sample of a strange synth sound , then YES you use only one sample for the whole keyboard.

if you want to create a lo-fi sound or SFX (stretching a sample to the edge - especially on low end) then YES you use only one ample from the whole keyboard.

When samples start becoming popular ad late 80's early 90's, ALL samplers (AKAI, Mirage, Roland S-serie) where able to stretch a single sample to the whole keyboard.
Also until Tyros 5, Yamaha and YEM was also capable to do the same, stretch a single sample to the whole keyboard, and this was working like a charm until... Yamaha decide to disable this capability, not only for Genos & SX series but also for professional keyboards like Montage!!
Now there is a limit -48, +24 semitones stretching from the sample.

My point is that music creativity has no limits, what is "bad" sound (because it use only one sample) for you, for another music creator is "good" and what exactly needs in order to achieve the musical results he/she is looking for...

[Jacky001]

thank you for your report.
I've been creating voices on Emu, Akai, Sampler for 24 years. But I've never experienced behavior like Yamaha. I always get the same result:
1MB wav = 2mb installation file,
10mb wav = 20mb installation file.
Also soundfont or rex import the same result. It's a shame, Yamaha sounds really good.

Whether it's a key or the entire keyboard doesn't matter at first. It has to work understandably. Before I start working on a project like this, I of course test the system. and everyone seems to get different results regarding the size of their install file. In any case, it makes no sense to create expansion packs for customers.

I'm getting an SX600 tomorrow and will test it and then report back.

Sorry for my possibly bad English, I'm from Germany