Clavinova CLP-800 series announced

[pjd]

Yamaha Europe have announced the Yamaha Clavinova CLP-800 series digital pianos:

https://europe.yamaha.com/en/products/musical_instruments/pianos/clavinova/clp-800_series/index.html

After going through the manuals, there isn't much apparent change from the 700 series. The basic piano engine has the same capability as the 700 series. Two new acoustic piano voices (Chill Out and Lo-Fi) plus a few additional DSP effects. Most change focuses on the built-in sound system(s).

Please see the link below for my quick take -- pj

https://sandsoftwaresound.net/yamaha-announce-the-clavinova-clp-800-series/

[gogo]

Which makes me wonder, what exactly did you expect from the new 800 series?

Personally, I am not disappointed. But am not enthusiastic, either.

[pjd]

Which makes me wonder, what exactly did you expect from the new 800 series?

A rhetorical question? 

Yamaha have released a number of new pianos for the Montage M series. Even the felt piano and C3 are free downloads for the old Montage/MODX. I don't follow the CP/YC stage very much, but I believe a few of the new pianos were included in free updates.

Then there are the new pianos in Genos 2 (including a Steinway) ...

Nothing in the CLP-800 series? Not even the top end models? Those babies are expensive!

All right, you encouraged me to whine.  Yes, they are still good pianos, but, cheesh...

Take care -- pj

[Amwilburn]

Having tried the CLP885, you're right, it is primarily focused on the sound reproduction. The crossovers are perfect now; seamless from lows to highs. People who find Yamaha's typical piano sound too bright and cutting, will love this, but I kind of missed the ultra high frequency top end. But most people won't. It's a very comfortable, immersive sound experience. Speakers no longer all pointed in 1 direction either.

On paper, there isn't much difference, no. But once you try it, it *is* a different experience. However, I didn't get a chance to try it on headphones, where I suspect the difference would be slight, if even discernable.

There *is* another very big difference, but I'm not sure how you market this: instead of using the 2nd and 3rd contact points as the key-on velocity detection, it now uses the 1 & 2. (it still uses the 3rd and 2nd to detect key off for fast repeats, but with the 1 & 2 being used for initial velocity, you can play faster, especially noticeable on key repeats and when you're playing pianissimo.

If *you* upgraded from CSP170 to CLP785/885, you'd likely miss the CVP705 sound library & styles that the CSP170 uses (or maybe not, since you already have a Genos). But if you were looking at *just* the piano, the CLP685/785/885 all blow away the CSP170/CVP705 cfx piano sample, and additionally all 3 CLPx85's use the longer 25cm grand key (vs the upright style of the CSP170), and now with the new key on/off algorithm of the 885, it's much more responsive to play.

But the differences are still really subtle, yes. Even going back to the CLP585, the biggest fault with that was the crossover was poorly done (way to "thuddy" sounding) but the actual sample and key touch were already really good.

[mikf]

I really doubt that Yamaha ever expected people with a CLP 700 series would rush out to upgrade, so they are not a significant sales target. And that means the 800 didn't have to be a massive step up. All they need is to improve  however slightly, so that the 800 is the best out there for new buyers in that particular market, or people upgrading much older models.
The fact that it is not a lot better than the 700 will be neither here nor there in sales volume, except for new buyers who opt to buy the old model at a discount until the 700 series stock is gone. And that will be no bad thing for Yamaha either.
Their strategy is solid, if unexciting.
Mike

[pjd]

All they need is to improve  however slightly, so that the 800 is the best out there for new buyers in that particular market, or people upgrading much older models.

I quite agree, Mike. I don't think Yamaha is being challenged enough by its competition.

My opinions are compartmentalized: business vs. personal (AKA "whining"). When gogo asks, "What did you expect?", I responded with my personal view. Plus, I was hoping to smoke out Mark's impression of the CLP-885. [Success! ]

Business-wise, during the last (?) Yamaha earnings call, they reported a soft/declining market for digital pianos (especially China). They could be trying to unload Series 700 models in the same way they cleared out CSP1xx models. Without a strong market, maybe they didn't feel the need to drive the market with features?

I think Yamaha will have a tough time promoting the new series on the basis of the sound field technology alone. Customers may or may not care about the sound field -- if Yamaha can draw them into a brick and mortar store. Most people have the ears of a stone figure on Easter Island. 

As a lunatic customer, I think the flagship Clavinova piano should have all/most of the piano voices offered, drawing from other product lines. I agree with Mark about missing certain CSP features if I did upgrade.

All the best -- pj

[gogo]

A rhetorical question? 

Yamaha have released a number of new pianos for the Montage M series. Even the felt piano and C3 are free downloads for the old Montage/MODX. I don't follow the CP/YC stage very much, but I believe a few of the new pianos were included in free updates.

Then there are the new pianos in Genos 2 (including a Steinway) ...

Nothing in the CLP-800 series? Not even the top end models? Those babies are expensive!

All right, you encouraged me to whine.  Yes, they are still good pianos, but, cheesh...

Take care -- pj

So, in your opinion, a new piano sound here and there would be a significant upgrade. I don't get it. Since we are on a discussion forum, let me explain my 3 gripes with my CLP-575:
- the keyboard is touch-heavy. It does not stop me too much because I am an intermediate player with no possibility to improve on that. I play no more than 30-40 minutes daily so the keyboard heaviness does not cuse me much trouble but... fixed in CLP-745, P-525 and now CLP-845. The 885 is twice the dough for the 845 (at least so was the case in the 700 series) so I must have real good reasons to go for that.

- the speakers produce muffled sound, the highs are absent, the mids are exaggerated, the bass is hollow. It's not what I expected from a High-end instrument at the time and I am so sorry I had to buy it in a hurry. The fact that the sound system has been improved on the 800 series make them a worthy upgrade for me, especially if I get to play the 845 for half an hour.

- the samples are distorted. I've composed 6 miniatures in E minor. The chord E minor sounds distorted. This was not fixed in the 700 series. Wonder how the 800 sound in this regard.

So, from my point of view and the position I am coming from, the 800 must represent a worthwhile upgrade but then again, my piano is already 3 generations behind.

I do not need other samples besides the CFX grand. No need for XG voices, rhythms etc, that's what my PSR S770 is for.

So, there is now MIDI over bluetooth. Interesting. Why should I need it on a piano... If it could record WAV on my iPad via bluetooth, that would be a thing.

Up to now, I have bought 2 CLPs from Yamaha, I've been highly dissatisfied with either of them. To the point that I wonder whether Yamaha can get it right.

[Amwilburn]

So, in your opinion, a new piano sound here and there would be a significant upgrade. I don't get it. Since we are on a discussion forum, let me explain my 3 gripes with my CLP-575:
- the keyboard is touch-heavy. It does not stop me too much because I am an intermediate player with no possibility to improve on that. I play no more than 30-40 minutes daily so the keyboard heaviness does not cuse me much trouble but... fixed in CLP-745, P-525 and now CLP-845. The 885 is twice the dough for the 845 (at least so was the case in the 700 series) so I must have real good reasons to go for that.

- the speakers produce muffled sound, the highs are absent, the mids are exaggerated, the bass is hollow. It's not what I expected from a High-end instrument at the time and I am so sorry I had to buy it in a hurry. The fact that the sound system has been improved on the 800 series make them a worthy upgrade for me, especially if I get to play the 845 for half an hour.

That actually sounds rather odd; the 585 *was* too bassy and mid rangey, so the high frequencies were rather drowned out (hence my description as "thuddy", but on headphones it sounded much better. But the CLP575, I don't remember any real issues with the sound at all; it's a 4 way (2 way crossover) system, and the 4 way speaker system they've had perfected for a while (see CVP705, 805, 905, CLP470) but the 3 way crossover system, the 500 series took a step backward (CLP480 sounded better than the CLP585, and even the CLP535 < CLP430, because of mid biased speakers) but they've since really nailed it (CLP675, 775, 685, 785) and now CLP885

But if your CLP575 lacks treble? I can't help but feel there's something wrong with one or both of your tweeters (or you meant CLP585?). If you like "crisp" highs and clarity above all else, might I suggest you look at a CLP775/675 (I haven't heard or tried any other CLP800 series yet, as they are not due to land in NA until later this year, only the 885 is imminent) or even a CLP685/785 or Nu1xA (my strongest recommendation for clarity, other than N1x which is a different size/weight/price category altogether).

Even though the 3 way crossover is beautifully transparent in the CLP885, I kind of miss the really open high frequencies of the last 3 models I just mentioned. But if you're one of those who complains that Yamaha's pianos are often too bright? You'll really appreciate the 800 series.

[pjd]

So, in your opinion, a new piano sound here and there would be a significant upgrade. I don't get it.

Well, there's a bit more context to my personal decisions. In other dimensions, a CLP-885 would be an upgrade over the CSP-170 which I own and play. The sound system is better. The keybed (linear graded GrandTouch) is improved over the NWX. [There's a few other criteria that slip my mind at the moment. A lack of caffeine.]

I tested the CLP-785 extensively and nearly bought it. The close-out price of the CSP-170 proved to be irresistible and the dealer offers a good trade-in policy (full value during the first two years). So, I thought, "What the heck. Buy the CSP-170 and see what the 885 brings." I recognize that CSP is an apple and CLP is an orange.

I'm happy with the CSP. Seeing the CLP-885, I don't have the same itchy feet to exercise the trade-in option.

I'm sorry to hear that your experiences with Yamaha digitals hasn't been satisfactory.

Take care -- pj

P.S. After coffee, all that Grand Expression stuff makes for a more responsive instrument. CSP-170 ain't got it.

[gogo]

Thanks for your responses. I have a 575 (five-seven-five). Well, since you mentioned, listening to 575 through headphones is where it is the worst. Read some where it's because the sound going to the headphones output and linear output is not enriched by some DSP and that the speakers are tweaked so that the piano sounds better through them. Which in turn makes the audio recording to USB not so worthy. I tried it and the results were really subpar. Playing other music through the internal speakers is a nightmare. I do wish I hadn't bought this piano.

Might give Yamaha another (last in my lifetime) shot next Christmas (2025). Of course, I've tried alternatives, but they are even worse.

On a side notice (a little offtopic) - I got the new Yamaha P-225 for my summer villa. Yet another terrible instrument by Yamaha mainly due to its atrocious internal speakers. I got it to have something to move my fingers on while on vacation. Poor them who will have it as a main instrument at home which they children will use to practice on.

I think that, more or less, the only instrument fromYamaha I've been pleased with has been the PSR S770. It's either me who is constantly making bad choices or Yamaha releases a lot of subpar products. In the case of the P-225 I knew beforehand what I was to expect from it so I don't care about its shortcomings too much.

[pjd]

Listening to 575 through headphones is where it is the worst. Read some where it's because the sound going to the headphones output and linear output is not enriched by some DSP and that the speakers are tweaked so that the piano sounds better through them. Which in turn makes the audio recording to USB not so worthy.

Well, to drill into ancient history, Yamaha used a YSS952 dual DSP IC to process digital audio from tone generation to produce separate digital audio streams for the woofers and the squawkers. ("Squawker" is Yamaha's term for the mid/high transducer/speaker.) The AUX OUT and PHONE OUT have their own independent DAC. The YSS952 performs a digital crossover.

Yamaha dropped the YSS952 in the CLP-685. [Sorry, I don't have service manuals for everything.] The 685 feeds the common digital audio stream from the tone generator into three independent STA350BM D-AMP digital amplifiers. Each amp handles a frequency band for the woofers, squawkers and tweeters. Thus, the 685 has a much different approach to crossover design.

Yamaha made another big change from 575 to 685. CLP-575 has an SWX08 host/TG processor clocking at 135.4752MHz plus an SSP2 to perform VRM. CLP-685 has an SWX09 host/TG processor clocking at 248MHz. No SSP2 as VRM is performed on the higher spec SWX09.

This is all a case of TMI -- pj   

[pjd]

One more thought...

I think Yamaha have gotten much better at digital crossovers like the FIR-X filter technology in the PA speaker line. They have been trickling this technology into other products like the "entry-level" STAGEPAS100. The STAGEPAS100 has high-resolution digital EQ and FIR-X filtering with a 1.8kHz crossover feeding a 6.5" cone and 1" throat compression driver. I use this thing every day and it's not a bad personal monitor for synths. I should A/B it against the CSP. Yamaha claim linear phase response and they might be right.

-- pj