SOLVED: Problem with subwoofer

[Fran MB]

Good morning.

I don't know if my query is in the right forum.

Thank you very much in advance.

I bought the Tyros 2 with a damaged TRS MS 02 subwoofer unit. At first minute it works well, but soon you start to hear knocks or it goes out and nothing sounds.

The person who sold me the keyboard told me that he was using a Home Cinema subwoofer replacing TRS MS 02 subwoofer, and keeping the Tyros satellites, but using cables other than those of the Tyros and using the Tyros Line Out as an output. I don't know what replacement subwoofer he used.

I can use some external amplified monitors, but I prefer to use the keyboard-specific satellites for space and placement reasons. That's why I've bought a used subwoofer (it works) and I've made the connections it told me at the time, but the "invention" doesn't work.

Below are the features of the TRS-MS 02 and the replacement subwoofer.

YAMAHA TRS-MS

Frequency response 32 Hz to 20 kHz (I don't know if you're referring to the response of the subwoofer or rather to that of the whole set)

Satellite Speakers

20 W + 20 W (1 kHz, 4 Ω at T.H.D.=10%)

Tweeter.... 1.9 cm (3/4") dome, magnetic shielding

Midrange............... 8 cm (3") cone, magnetic shielding

Subwoofer

40 W (100 Hz, 5 Ω at T.H.D.=10%)

16 cm (6.5") cone, magnetic shielding

Power consumption: 65 W.

As you konw, a combo RCA pin/8-pin cable comes out of the keyboard and enters the subwoofer and returns to the keyboard.
The satellites are connected by 1 RCA cable each coming from other keyboard outputs.

SUBWOOFER I PURCHASED FOR REPLACEMENT:

YAMAHA YST SW005 (SELF-POWERED ACTIVE)

Driver 16 cm cone woofer
Output 55 W/ 5 Ω
Frequency response: 30 Hz to 200 Hz

To connect the keyboard to the subwoofer:

Keyboard Output: Line Out L and R (one cable for each channel, 6.5 mm TRS output (I think) that go into the two inputs of the subwoofer "INPUT 1 FROM AMPLIFIER" to bare cable.


To connect the subwoofer to satellite speakers:

Diagrams of the subwoofer connection can be found on pages E4 to E7 of the manual at the link.

YST-SW005.pdf (yamaha.com) (I don't know if the link will work).


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://europe.yamaha.com/files/download/other_assets/5/327705/YST-SW005_G_en.PDF&ved=2ahUKEwiv56jvhbqFAxXQUqQEHQ5-B1MQFnoECBMQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1QuAE3KiwuS8jTXDdH1J9o

From the subwoofer "OUTPUT TO SPEAKERS" output to bare cable, and input to each satellite with RCA.

RESULT:

The bass is heard (but at a rather lower level than with the Tyros subwoofer, which is less powerful) and more muted.
Only one of the satellites can be heard. You hear something very low, with your ear glued to it, and with the subwoofer volume and keyboard output at maximum.

When trying to change the order of the pair of bare RCA cables of both, in no case do they both sound, and even depending on how they are combined, the subwoofer (bass) stops playing.

The INPUT 1 FROM AMPLIFIER, according to manual of the subwoofer YAMAHA YST SW005, is to be connected to the speaker output of an amplifier that does not have a specific PRE OUT subwoofer output. I don't know if a signal previously amplified by the amplifier should enter this input.

DOUBTS:

1. The Tyros doesn't have an internal amplifier, right? therefore, the signal leaves the keyboard to the TRS MS 02 unamplified, and therefore also to any external team.

2. I don't know if the YST 005 subwoofer, through this input is able to amplify the signal coming from the keyboard (I think unamplified) to power the satellites, as I think the TRS MS 02 subwoofer does. Perhaps it is only prepared to receive previously amplified signals, which is why satellites sound at such a low volume.

3. Maybe the stripped RCA cables at the subwoofer output and with RCA (two-way) connector to the satellite speacker are not correct?  The cables are firmly attached to the output tabs of the subwoofer. The volume output controls on the Tyros and subwofer are maxed out.

4. Before I discard the subwoofer I'd like to know if what I want to do is perhaps not possible, or at least with this particular subwoofer, or if I'm doing something wrong, or if something can be done to make it work.

5. Has anyone had the same problem as me with the TRS MS 02 subwoofer? Is there any easy solution without taking it to an SAT?


I don't know if I've been able to explain myself well. The forum app doesn't allow you to attach photos, I think.

Sorry for the length and that what I am proposing is so basic or silly.

Thank you.

Best regards.

[BogdanH]

hello Fran,
You have described the situation perfectly. As you probably already realized, this subwoofer (YST-SW005) is totally unusable in combination with existing satellite speakers.
The thing is, subwoofer only has one (mono) amplifier which only covers sub-frequency range and that's it. There's no (stereo) amplifier that's needed for for satellite speakers -and that's the problem that you cannot solve with some special wiring.
This subwoofer is only usable if you also have a stereo amplifier. But even then, to use it in combination with satellites speakers, that's not just any stereo amplifier. It should have the ability to define crossover frequency, otherwise it can easily happen that you damage satellites (which are meant only for mid and high frequency range).

In short: If you wish to use existing satellite speakers, repairing the original subwoofer is the only solution -check that 8-pin cable and connectors!!

Bogdan

[Fran MB]

Good afternoon Bogdan,
Once again I must thank you for your excellent, quick and detailed response, also in this other field related to keyboards.

The cables are in principle well connected. Someone told me that the TRS ms:02 series had been defective and that this was a fairly common problem, although I don't know if it is true, something related when it get hot? Or something, it gets broken and later it fails even when it is cold at the firstoment using it.

The problem was corrected starting with Tyro's 3 I believe. I will have to buy a new equipment used, I think all TRS ms-01 up to TRS MS 05 are compatible with my Tyros 2, although with 5 I have some doubts, although I think they have exactly the same connections.

Thank you very much and greetings.

Fran

[Amwilburn]

Bogdan is correct, the TRS is a set, the subwoofer powers the satellites, therefore without a working sub, you can't use the satellites either. Only the TRSMS01, TRSMS02, TRSMS04 and TRSMS05 are fully compatible (no there was not a huge problem with TRSMS01 or TRSMS02.. as a dealer we never encountered any blown ones.) So if you can find any, by all means grab one of those (but they're all discontinued, FYI)

But you could always just buy your own stereo speakers. Either a pair of HS7/HS8 if you don't need much volume (those a near field monitors for recording, not live speakers). For actual PA speakers I'd either recommend a Stagepas400bt or 600bt (depending on small or large living room), or if you need to perform at a venue, CP8's are amazing (but at 1000w each, the noise floor is a *lot* higher, so not as appropriate for home use!)

Mark

[Fran MB]

Hello Mark, thank you for your response, which contains information of great interest to me, and for your recommendations.
greetings.

Fran

[Fran MB]

Hello again,
I just realized something very obvious but the truth is that I had not noticed since when they sold me the Tyros with the amplifier they already told me that it did not work well. Because of the plug it comes with two flat pins with a European plug adapter and because its characteristics say 120 volts, I see that it matches the versions sold for Canada and the United States.
Perhaps the problem I have is that I am connecting a device that makes this 220 volts and that is why at first it works fine but it starts to bang and stops because it must have an auto shut-off system for safety?
If this is true, could it be fixed simply with a current transformer from 120 volts to 220?
Perhaps apart from this, it is also possible that the unit is damaged due to having been connected to a 220 network or perhaps also for other reasons that I am not aware of.

Thank you very much again.

[ibrox2]

Hi fran b

Why not cut the two pin plug off and put a uk plug
On as the two pin might be faulty I always cut the two
Pin off anything and put a uk plug on just make sure
You read what voltage the sub woofer takes I would assume
It is 240 volts 

[BogdanH]

hmm.. just to make it clear... Your subwoofer is made for 120V and have connected it to 240V? Or is opposite?

Bogdan

[Amwilburn]

If you plug a 120v speaker into 240v, you 'd have most likely fried it.

Yes, plugging a 120v item with a 240v to 120v step down transformer would have worked, correct.

If you plugged a 240v speaker into 120v power, it likely wouldn't turn on, but no damage should occur because of it

[mikf]

Fran
The plugs are really a bit of a red herring. What matters is what the supply voltage is in your country and what is the rating of the sub woofer /amplifier. If you are using a uk plug for the supply, I suspect it is a high voltage, supply ie  220 -240 v. And if the sub has an American plug fitted, that is probably an indication it is a 120v device. But  we are guessing, because you did not make that clear, so please look at the device and state these voltages clearly.
BTW, if that is the case, not only is it like to have caused damage, -  it could be dangerous.
Never plug high voltage supply into low voltage devices by changing the plug or using adapters, you must use a 240v to 120v transformer. But in this case, it sounds like the damage is already done.
Mike

[Fran MB]

hmm.. just to make it clear... Your subwoofer is made for 120V and have connected it to 240V? Or is opposite?


Bogdan

Hello, my subwoofer is 120v I live in Spain and I be connected directly to 220v, a lots of times.....The subwoofer sounds ok during several seconds or minutes and then starts to sound a very loud beat, and  other times it turns off....but if I push on again, the subwoofer sounds ok one moment and again the same thing....
Maybe it is a protection system that turns of the subwoofer....maybe it is still no damaged...I am thinking about to buy convert apparatus to convert the 220v to 110v (I' am not finding one to 120v, but maybe it will be not a problem...
I am responding quickly, sorry for muy poor English

Thanks


Edit: Moved reply text out of the quoted text by overover

[Amwilburn]

Yes, please *don't* do that. It's likely to catch fire. 

I'm not exaggerating, I've done the same thing, having lived both North America (120v) and Hong Kong (220v) and one time forgetting to flick something to the correct voltage (my CLP300 has a voltage selector switch) but luckily it only melted the house socket and we had a fire extinguisher handy.

My buddy was in Germany doing a show with his 120V Nord, and he plugged it in for sound check, but luckly the Nord had a fuse (which blew) and luckily they were able to quickly find a matching fuse (and a step down transformer!) before showtime. If  the Nord didn't have a fuse, it would likley have fried as well. *NO* equipment designed to run at 120 will survive being plugged into 220/240.

One of the reasons Clavinovas now all have universal a/c adapters like the PSR's... so that you can safely plug it into the wall outlets anywhere in the world

Please Make sure your Tyros is *also* designed for 220v/240v. If it's designed for 120v, you'll likely destroy that as well.

Mark

[mikf]

The chances that there is a 'protection' cutting in after a minute seems slim. You hit electronics with too high a voltage, the damage is usually fairly immediate.
Mike

[Amwilburn]

Correct. There is no protection "cutting in". The North American ones are designed for the North American 120v supply, and nothing else (they don't even work if you plug into the 100V Japan power supply. Turn on with no sound).

The other way around, 100v power supply *will* work here in North America, but they will eventually burn out (happened to one of our students who didn't believe me; bought a $10k CVP from Japan, and I told her to get a 120 to 100v step down transformer or it would burn out. It did take almost 5 years though, but it did burn out.

Mark

[BogdanH]

hello Fran,
ok, we can only guess now, but I agree with others that some permanent damage has been done to subwoofer. My advice would be:
Don't buy any 240V to120V converter, because if subwoofer already has some damage, then you can not solve the problem with converter.

I have downloaded service manual, but it only contains schematics for keyboard (not for subwoofer) and so it's hard to speculate about amount of damage.
I predict that the transformer inside subwoofer is definitely damaged (because of overheating) -and that's why it makes no sense to buy 240->120 converter.
Find an electrician and he should check internal power supply section just after transformer output (electrolyte capacitors and diodes) -these are very cheap parts in case you need to replace them. The only part that you definitely need to replace is power supply transformer (with the one that's made for 240V), which is also relative cheap.
Of course, without schematics you cannot know what voltage is needed on secondary part of transformer (I would guess somewhere around 16-20V)... maybe you can find service manual for T3 or T4 subwoofer (should be similar).
Anyway, all above would only make sense (financially) if amplifier section isn't damaged... I assume it isn't... because a voltage regulator is usually just after capacitors and diodes.... just guessing.
Btw. Don't plug that subwoofer into 240V anymore!!

Bogdan

[Fran MB]

Hello,

Thank you very much to one of you for your answers.

Of course I will follow your advice and will not reconnect the 120v subwoofer to the 220v mains.

If I had known it was 120v I wouldn't have done it.

The truth is that I bought the Tyros plus TRS MS02 as a whole (used) and it didn't occur to me that each one had different voltages. The salesman didn't warn me either, he just told me that the subwoofer was failing.

Mark, I have checked the voltage of the Tyros 2, and I understand that as you said about Clavinova and PSR, it is also universal, as it indicates 110v to 240v.

Perhaps the current problem with the subwoofer was being connected to a 220v mains by one of its previous owners (the keyboard is from 2007).

As a test, I don't lose anything anymore, I'm going to try to get (without buying) a 220v to 120v transformer. I understand that if I get a 220v one at "only" 110v it would be valid as well, since I can't locate the 120v ones, here in Spain.

What amazes me is that having received the overvoltage, the subwoofer hasn't burned out, and its components (power supply transformer, to name only one) still work (even if it's only for seconds, maybe a minute) every time I turned the subwoofer off and on again. The amplifier may not be damaged, as while it is working, the sound is very powerful. But these are just speculations from my ignorance about "electronics".

Again, thank you all very much for your attention.

Fran.

P.S.: I'm sorry I didn't explain myself well in some cases, I don't always have the opportunity to use the translator when I write in English, and sometimes the translator doesn't have to express correctly what I write either.

[KurtAgain]

Fran,
If you buy a voltage converter, make sure that it can deliver enough power. The TRS MS02 has a power consumption of 65W, i.e. the converter must be able to deliver at least this power, preferably more.

[Fran MB]

Hello, thanks for the recommendation.

I'll look for one that has at least 80W..

I suppose that if I can't find one that is 220v-120v, one that is 220v-110v will work for me.

Greetings.

[KurtAgain]

I suppose that if I can't find one that is 220v-120v, one that is 220v-110v will work for me.

I think so too. By the way, the mains voltage in Spain, as in all of Europe, has been 230V for many years. But that shouldn't matter here.

[Amwilburn]

110v is fine, yes. However, as Bogdan already correctly pointed out, the woofer is most likely already damaged and thus it might be more cost efficient to purchase a correct 220v powered speaker set rather than waste $$$ on a converter for a failing speaker.


However, the Tyroses (Tyrii?) did *not* have switchable voltage because they use a standard PC 3 prong A/C plug (Tyros 2 actuallly used a 2 prong, but still), *not* a transformer. Look for the large white/silver rectangle on the bottom of the keyboard. I have a used T4 handy, and it says 120v, 45W, 60 HZ (which is correct for North America). Probably your T3 is already 240v otherwise you would've smelled burning/melting plastic by now, but please check the underside to be sure.

I've *never* seen a Tyros with switchable voltage. Check the large pale sticker on the underside.

Note the cable itself *is* labelled 100v to 240v, but that has NOTHING to do with the Tyros itself. That's just standard for the 2 prong cable (same as the back of all Clavinovas up til about 10 years ago, same cable as Sony Playstation 1-3). If your Tyros2 underside says 120v, then you should absolutely get a step down transformer and thank your lucky stars you hadn't set fire to anything yet.

Mark

[overover]

The TRS-MS02 subwoofer is available in three different power supply variants. USA and Canada Models (120 V, 60 Hz) must never be connected to a 230 or 240 V / 50 Hz power supply.

U.S.A. and Canada Models .......... AC 120 V, 60 Hz
Australia Model ............................ AC 240 V, 50 Hz
U.K. and Europe models .............. AC 230 V, 50 Hz

This information for the prescribed mains voltage and frequency should be found on the name plate (back or underside of the subwoofer).


Best regards,
Chris

[Fran MB]

I think so too. By the way, the mains voltage in Spain, as in all of Europe, has been 230V for many years. But that shouldn't matter here.

You are absolutely right, in 2003, I think, the voltage changed from 220 to 230v, but the custom of so many years ago and that in many previous devices and installations still indicate 220v make one forget.

[Fran MB]

110v is fine, yes. However, as Bogdan already correctly pointed out, the woofer is most likely already damaged and thus it might be more cost efficient to purchase a correct 220v powered speaker set rather than waste $$$ on a converter for a failing speaker.


Thanks, I'll try with 110v if that's the case. I understand that the transformer when it converts to 110v, it also converts from 50hz to 60hz.



My intention is to get a converter to do the test without spending any money. I have some amplified monitors that I use sometimes, but I don't have the space to put them near the keyboard, so I want to repair or buy a used TRS MS 02-05.


However, the Tyroses (Tyrii?) did *not* have switchable voltage because they use a standard PC 3 prong A/C plug (Tyros 2 actuallly used a 2 prong, but still), *not* a transformer. Look for the large white/silver rectangle on the bottom of the keyboard. I have a used T4 handy, and it says 120v, 45W, 60 HZ (which is correct for North America). Probably your T3 is already 240v otherwise you would've smelled burning/melting plastic by now, but please check the underside to be sure.


The day before yesterday I checked the voltages on the black labels of both equipment. On the Tyros 2 (black label bottom) it indicates: 110 - 240v 45W 50/60Hz. On the TRS MS 02 (rear) it reads: 120VOLTS 65W 60Hz.


I've *never* seen a Tyros with switchable voltage. Check the large pale sticker on the underside.

Note the cable itself *is* labelled 100v to 240v, but that has NOTHING to do with the Tyros itself. That's just standard for the 2 prong cable (same as the back of all Clavinovas up til about 10 years ago, same cable as Sony Playstation 1-3). If your Tyros2 underside says 120v, then you should absolutely get a step down transformer and thank your lucky stars you hadn't set fire to anything yet.

[Fran MB]

The TRS-MS02 subwoofer is available in three different power supply variants. USA and Canada Models (120 V, 60 Hz) must never be connected to a 230 or 240 V / 50 Hz power supply.

U.S.A. and Canada Models .......... AC 120 V, 60 Hz
Australia Model ............................ AC 240 V, 50 Hz
U.K. and Europe models .............. AC 230 V, 50 Hz

This information for the prescribed mains voltage and frequency should be found on the name plate (back or underside of the subwoofer).


Best regards,
Chris

Hello, I have the U.S.A. and Canada Models .......... AC 120 V, 60 Hz.

Thanks!

[KurtAgain]

Fran,
Probably the frequency will not be converted,  but with a little luck this won't matter.

[BogdanH]

Fran, let me explain a little, so you don't make wrong decisions...

Although frequency does matter for a transformer to work as specified, it doesn't matter for the rest of the electronics inside subwoofer. Just after voltage is converted for example from AC 230V to AC 20V (that's transformer's job), it's immediately converted to DC voltage (by diodes) and capacitors make sure that any pulsation is flattened -I've just described how power supply works. Means, there's no frequency anymore. That is, amplifier inside subwoofer is actually working on DC power (=same as battery power).
The transformer is a simple copper coil where electricity (230V) runs trough that coil. If voltage is higher than allowed (110V) then coil starts overheating which damages the insulation and can finally lead to melting. The damage is not necessary visible to eyes. To put it simple, if transformer is damaged, it can become dangerous using it (even at correct voltage later).

And that's why I said you shouldn't spend money on buying 230V->110V converter. That would only make sense, if you'd be 100% sure that nothing is damaged inside subwoofer. I highly recommend that you consult some electrician.

Greetings,
Bogdan

[KurtAgain]

The EU-wide 14-day right of withdrawal for online orders should also apply in Spain. With little financial risk Fran could order a converter and see if his subwoofer still works. Based on what Fran wrote above, I suspect that the subwoofer, including its power supply, is still okay.

[KurtAgain]

Fran, let me explain a little, so you don't make wrong decisions...

I suspect (but don't know for sure) that the TRS-MS02 does not have an old-school power supply with a transformer, but already contains a switching power supply that works differently.

[Amwilburn]

However, the Tyroses (Tyrii?) did *not* have switchable voltage because they use a standard PC 3 prong A/C plug (Tyros 2 actuallly used a 2 prong, but still), *not* a transformer. Look for the large white/silver rectangle on the bottom of the keyboard. I have a used T4 handy, and it says 120v, 45W, 60 HZ (which is correct for North America). Probably your T3 is already 240v otherwise you would've smelled burning/melting plastic by now, but please check the underside to be sure.


The day before yesterday I checked the voltages on the black labels of both equipment. On the Tyros 2 (black label bottom) it indicates: 110 - 240v 45W 50/60Hz. On the TRS MS 02 (rear) it reads: 120VOLTS 65W 60Hz.


I've *never* seen a Tyros with switchable voltage. Check the large pale sticker on the underside.

Black label? it should be a silver/white label.
*Edit I stand corrected, found it, it was black on T2
as per PSRtutorial itself!

https://psrtutorial.com/music/projects/T2Memory/Fig01.jpg

It *is* still at the top of the sticker, to the left of the sine wave. should be Either 100V, 120V, 240V (there is a "45W" directly underneath it)
Right above where it says
"YAMAHA CORPORATION"
"MADE IN JAPAN"

our T4 says "120V" with a sine wave next to that
"45W 60Hz"

It should be the same as what's on the subwoofer. Which do not have internal voltage switching, unfortunately. Only keyboards with external A/C adapters have auto switching, but who knows? I suppose it's possible the previous owner already swapped out the T3's, or even though I haven't seen it, maybe they released a Tyros somewhere that actually has a voltage range?

Not trying to scare you, trying to prevent you from damaging your gear!

If you check the manual
https://de.yamaha.com/files/download/other_assets/2/334142/tyros2_en1.pdf

and search voltage, it states specifically that the local voltage *must* match the designed voltage for the region, which is printed on the name plate (the sticker on the underside) and will specify 120v, 240v, etc same as the TRSMS02 that it's sold with. (They were not sold separately back in the day, they came as a package)



Mark

[overover]

I suspect (but don't know for sure) that the TRS-MS02 does not have an old-school power supply with a transformer, but already contains a switching power supply that works differently.

The TRS-MS02 contains an old-school power supply with a transformer, i.e. not a switching power supply. See also the attached screenshot.


Best regards,
Chris

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