Yamaha Genos 2 vs Genos1

[Keyboard Master]

I agree too I guess Yamaha retweeked some of the preset voices I have a good idea here's style Discohands originality from tyros 4 try it on both genos models and even the psr sx models to do a true sound comparison with the same voices . Here's the style. https://www.dropbox.com/s/izfks7jqhkuzgv1/DiscoHands.T160.prs?dl=0

[James2010]

I love the Felt piano on the Genos 2.

Overall I think the sound of Genos 2 compared to Genos, is more powerful and wider spread of sound. I think this is maybe why it sounds louder than original Genos due to the advanced engineering?

Having owned the original Genos for six years, I'm delighted I took the plunge to move up to Genos 2.

[EileenL]

Yes me to James. Great Keyboard all round.

[Ronbo]

Hello all,

Correct me if I'm wrong but my former G1 had a feature that allowed the user to adjust the volume of a style while playing it with a more aggressive touch or less aggressive, depending on the volume the player wanted during a performance.

I miss that, and I can't seem to get that feature on G2.

If someone could suggest how to go about this I would be forever grateful.

I hope also that some or any on our members know what I'm talking about and I didn't dream this up.

regards

Ron

[pjd]

If someone could suggest how to go about this I would be forever grateful.

I hope also that some or any on our members know what I'm talking about and I didn't dream this up.

Hi Ron --

You're not dreaming.  On Genos 1, that feature is called "Dynamics Control", Genos 1 Reference Manual, page 11.

Yamaha rejiggered this feature for Genos 2: Genos2 Reference Manual, pages 11, 27 and 147. G2 people will chime in. The newer implementation dynamically tweaks volume and velocity for more realistic impression of live players.

-- pj

Update: Yamaha highlighted this feature in its promotional videos, but oddly, it's buried in the manual. No mention in the G2 Owner's Manual at all.

[Ronbo]

Thanks pj,

I thought I was going nuts there!

I have to say that I prefer the way G1 handled this.   
It was so much simpler

Yamaha seems to have tried to fix something that isn't broken,IMHO

best regards

Ron

[mikf]

On the subject of sustain, I have found that all the digital pianos I have played have relatively poor sustain, not just arrangers. I guess this may be due to the massive memory/sampling requirement to have a very long sustain time on a polyphonic instrument.
But even acoustic piano brands have very variable sustain, with the higher quality pianos nearly always vastly superior in this regard. I have a Yamaha Grand which cost about 20k, and is not their very best quality, but its still an expensive piano and it is a Yamaha. And its pretty nice .... but I also have a Shigeru which cost many times that much, and the sustain and total sound as a result, is miles better than the Yamaha. Same with all the other quality piano brands like Bosendorfer, Steinway, Bluthner, I have been lucky enough to play. They all sound fabulous, and the sustain is a definite part of that. I suppose this is because the sustain is very much related to quality of design, construction and materials, particularly, the soundboard quality. 
The thing is why it matters. Most of the time in normal playing the sustain pedal is released in couple of seconds or less, much shorter than the total time to decay to zero of even the poorest sustain. so why does it matter if the total sustain sample time is 10 secs rather than 30 secs. The problem is that the total decay time also affects the shape of the decay curve, so the pianos with a very long decay time will have much fuller sound after a couple of seconds. This is why the best pianos can sound so much more satisfying to the player, and they will always appear to have a much fuller overall sound. This 'nice' feeling is probably the second most important thing after the feel of the keyboard for a piano player, and maybe more important than tone.
Mike 

[BogdanH]

Yes Mike, completely agree on what you say.
It's not really a problem if sustain (sample length practically) is only 10s long. What matters is, what's inside these 10s (decay curve).

Bogdan

[Amwilburn]

Agreed, mike. Although the sustain on the hybrids (N1x, N2, N3x) is incredible. 30+ seconds on the lowest notes.

Steinway actually has a patented soundboard to elongate the sustain (most pianos use a pretty uniform cross section on their soundboards (thin rectangular), Steinway uses one with tapered edges (a bit like an airplane wing cross section except both sides would be trailing edges) so that more mass is in the centre, allowing it to resonate for longer, and with thinner sides, allowing for more free resonating.

Mark

[mikf]

Mark
My Shigeru has an incredible sustain. I never measured it but it seemed to go on  almost forever. It's in Europe and I'm in the US at the moment, so I can't measure it, but will be there next month and will do. I actually had a normal Kawaii piano before changing to the a Shigeru, and it was not even close to the class of the Shigeru, but to be fair it was pretty good and it also cost a lot less.
Kawai bought the whole mountainside of a particular Spruce that are reputed to make the best soundboards, because he felt that was key, and it meant only he could access it. He only uses it in the Shigeru.
A recent detailed review I saw said that Shigeru Kawaii had largely copied the Steinway design down to the last detail, even fastener positions, to make his flagship piano, but then improved some of the materials, thicker casing etc. It's certainly a stunning piano, superbly finished, and although expensive, a bargain compared to Steinway or Bosies. My tuner says it is the best constructed and most stable piano he works on. He tunes it only once a year and says it hardly drifts at all.
Mike

[Amwilburn]

SK's *do* sound really good.

However, they're not allowed to borrow *anything* from Steinway design. It's literally in their contract agreement; Kawai OEM produces Bostons on behalf of Steinway (they asked Yamaha first, but Yamaha was already at capacity manufacturing their own pianos). Part of the agreement is they aren't allowed to copy any part of Steinway's designs (and if they did, they would probably face financial ruin).

Most noteably: *no* manufacturer in the world would ever put higher quality materials in their oem manufactured products.

https://familypiano.com/blog/kawai-vs-steinway/
Interestingly they go on to defend the use of plastic parts in their Kawai pianos; depsite the fact that none of the high end brands does this (including their own Shigeru). In reference to this article saying that's like saying polyester sweaters are plastic: they are.
And Steinways *do* appreciate in value, as do Martin guitars. But that's for investors to quibble about, not musicians like us!

But you know as well as anybody: If you want the best, you'll have to pay more.

Here's a less defensive article:
https://www.pianobrands.org/yamaha-vs-kawai-vs-steinway/

But SK's made in Japan? Do indeed sound really good for the money. No argument here. But there are a lot of myths out there; Steinway *is* the best (99.9% of all concert halls use a Steinway; a small percentage did try putting Faziolis in them, but over 90% of those went back to Steinway). And absolutely agree, Sk's blow Kawai's out of the water (not least of which is higher material quality in SK's vs Kawais.)

But that doesn't mean SK, Yamaha's, Bosendorfers, (which are actually also Yamahas since 2008), Sauters aren't all really good, because they *are*, too!


Mark

[mikf]

Mark, i wish I could remember the link to the website where the guy, an excellent pianist and piano blogger, went into a detailed comparison of Steinway and SK. He measured everything, and said he was shocked at how closely the SK matched the Steinway. And he then produces detailed playing comparisons, and says they are almost impossible to tell apart. He actually referred to the Shigeru as a 'fake Steinway'.
I got involved with a top level business consultant on a marketing project back in the 80s. His big reference project was New York Steinway, which he claimed to have worked with and turned the business around. Don't know how true that was but he certainly appeared to maintain great relations with Steinway top management and offered to take me there. But I never did go.
He told me that the master stroke at Steinway was not their piano quality, which although very good was actually not really considered better than the other top brands, and truthfully they were having quality issues at the New York factory. He said the key was a marketing vision and commitment which foresaw that penetrating all the conservatories where all the budding concert pianists were being groomed, combined with driving great deals to put them in concert halls would provide huge brand loyalty. The worlds best players would ultimately demand Steinway all the time because that was what they were used to playing. And people would then associate great players with Steinway pianos, instilling the link that they must be the best because the best demand them. It definitely worked.
Of course they are also great pianos, but truthfully there are other equally great pianos, that don't carry that Steinway kudos. Fazioli are generally considered the best, and I have seen a website where a famous piano technician (actually Oscar Peterson's personal tuner)  listed Fazioli as clearly the best, with German Steinway, Shigeru and Bosendorfer just behind. He was actually quite critical of New York Steinway. But here is the bottom line - if you are a concert pianist and you have practiced and performed on a Steinway every day of your life, you don't want to be suddenly presented with a Fazioli at a concert performance, no matter how good people say it is.
Mind you, I believe Peterson actually favored Bosendorfer.
Mike

[hoangbr2014]

I contacted Yamaha, and they suggested, "was only able to hear the slightest difference in treble/presence. assume the Genos 2 voice/s is EQ slightly flatter than the Genos voice/s

would suggest experimenting with the Master EQ and increasing the Middle High and High frequency levels".

By the way, I bought CFX Piano Genos 1, and then put it into Genos 1. Personally, this guy has been very good so far. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4dtUf0k-R0

[overover]

Hi Hoang,

Have you tried using the Genos1 "CFX Concert Grand" voice file on the Genos2?

I compared this voice file (.nlv) in MixMaster (List View) with the corresponding Genos2 voice file and found the following differences in particular (in addition to some additional Sy*** that are included in the Genos2 voice file):

Part EQ Treble Gain (@ 2.8 kHz):
Genos1: 80
Genos2: 64

Reverb Send Level:
Genos1: 17
Genos2: 36

As you can see, the Genos1 CFX ConcertGrand definitely has more treble and less reverb.

You can download the Genos1 "CFX ConcertGrand" voice file at the following link. If you haven't already done so, please load it on the Genos2 and compare it with the Genos2 "CFX ConcertGrand":
>>> CFX ConcertGrandG1.T228.nlv


Best regards,
Chris

[hoangbr2014]

Hi Hoang,

Have you tried using the Genos1 "CFX Concert Grand" voice file on the Genos2?

I compared this voice file (.nlv) in MixMaster (List View) with the corresponding Genos2 voice file and found the following differences in particular (in addition to some additional Sy*** that are included in the Genos2 voice file):

Part EQ Treble Gain (@ 2.8 kHz):
Genos1: 80
Genos2: 64

Reverb Send Level:
Genos1: 17
Genos2: 36

As you can see, the Genos1 CFX ConcertGrand definitely has more treble and less reverb.

You can download the Genos1 "CFX ConcertGrand" voice file at the following link. If you haven't already done so, please load it on the Genos2 and compare it with the Genos2 "CFX ConcertGrand":
>>> CFX ConcertGrandG1.T228.nlv


Best regards,
Chris

Hi Chris,
Thank you for your idea. I tried all, loading Geno1 factory sound to Genos 2, tried editing EQ or Reverb settings. The G2 has good new drums, reverb, and new styles. But I think I like the "taste" of the sound of Genos.

All my friends, no one complained about Genos 2, only me.

The ordeal situation that my boss, the owner of the bar club, where I played 3 days a week, preferred the Genos 1. Last 2 weeks, I played with Genos 2. Tonight, I bring Genos 1. He said, "No more Genos 2, ok!". That is ridiculous.

But anyway I think the different taste of sound. Here is the piano Genos 2 that I modified reverb https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9dsMu4JtCM&t=28s

[pjd]

Tonight, I bring Genos 1. He said, "No more Genos 2, ok!". That is ridiculous.

That is crazy. Put tape over the "2". 

Good luck -- pj

[overover]

Hi Chris,
Thank you for your idea. I tried all, loading Geno1 factory sound to Genos 2, tried editing EQ or Reverb settings. The G2 has good new drums, reverb, and new styles. But I think I like the "taste" of the sound of Genos.

All my friends, no one complained about Genos 2, only me.

The ordeal situation that my boss, the owner of the bar club, where I played 3 days a week, preferred the Genos 1. Last 2 weeks, I played with Genos 2. Tonight, I bring Genos 1. He said, "No more Genos 2, ok!". That is ridiculous.

But anyway I think the different taste of sound. Here is the piano Genos 2 that I modified reverb https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9dsMu4JtCM&t=28s

Thanks for your feedback, Hoang!

By the way, please note that the global Reverb (and Chorus) effect types (System Effects) are set by the currently loaded STYLE or MIDI file, i.e. not by the Voice file used.


Best regards,
Chris

[bpsafran]

Hi Hoang, 

I suggest that  as I have done, you review the 1600
registrations of the Genos Playlist (link in the Forum at the top of the  Genos2
thread) (and 3200 OTS) that the professionals at
Yamaha have programmed.  Many include voice and effects
edits and many include pianos.  I think you will be
surprised at the variety. My interest  is mostly in
orchestral music and the new Genos2 strings and brass
aling with the new reverb and touch curves (both
velocity and aftertouch) make these very expressive.
Combining the CFX and other voices also gives
interesting sonic combinations.  I strongly suggest
that we all can learn from the pro programming of the provided
registrations and OTS.

Regards

[soryt]

After 20 years of Yamaha keyboards ( since the first Tyros).
there is always a lot of people who compare the newest model with his predecessor , and the people who can't direct afford the newest model making excuses to themselves to say that the older model sounds better .
There is so much changed the passed years and improved so that we have no idea how good some sounds can upgraded with the new effect processors, Al the samples from the successor are on the latest keyboard in the Legacy memory and sounds exactly the same with the same settings (EQ , effects, etc,etc) . you can make the Genos 2 sounds in anyway you want. There is really no difference in the basic samples . But it is also possible to ruin the sound without any knowledge of the instrument. It's all in your hands 🙌 to make it to your taste.
Just my humble opinion 

[EileenL]

Yes soryt,
  Thats what I love about Yamaha keyboards you can make them your own by using the edit and settings provided.

[DrakeM]

I totally agree with Eileen, you can easily make any Yamaha keyboard fit your own style of music.

I just finished getting the Romance Latino styles to work with my PSR-S950 and heard some really nice acoustic guitar setups in the OTS of these styles. It will take some time for me find a place for them in some of my existing custom styles. 

The Genos 2 is the best sounding keyboard but totally to big to drag around and use for gigs.  It's not a question of money but rather SIZE that makes it unpractical to purchase.

I am still patiently awaiting for the next SX999 keyboard to be released by Yamaha. Hopefully they will release it by this June or July, as I got ton of cash burning a hole in my pocket wanting to get out and stimulate the economy and generate some profits. 

Regards
Drake

[pjd]

I strongly suggest that we all can learn from the pro programming of the provided registrations and OTS.

That remark bears repeating! The Yamaha sound/style developers are darned good. To this day I learn new things by taking their work apart.

Peace to all -- pj

[mikf]

Got to admit I found it a bit puzzling that you are making all these points about the piano voices, but then the sample you post has it mixed with a string pad, So it's not really a piano voice anyway.
I cant help feeling that you are way overthinking all of this. What you play, and how well you play, are mega differences compared to the tiny differences in piano voices that seem to bother you. If you were a world class concert pianist trying to figure out whether to buy a 150k Bosendorfer, or a 250k Fazioli, then maybe tiny differences matter.
But on an arranger, which doesn't even have a real piano action, and using voices mixed with string pads.......hmmmm
Shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic!
Mike

[overover]

I decide to sell Genos 2. If needed,  anyone in this forum near DC Areas USA could please contact me by message for phone number. Buying new with only 2 nights gigging.  Expansion CMS Grandpiano 1, CMS Nord Pop Piano, and many, full 3Gb.

Hi Hoang,

I've moved your post about offering your Genos2 for sale to the "Items for Sale" board:
>>> https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,69268.msg521408.html#msg521408


Best regards,
Chris

[hoangbr2014]

That is crazy. Put tape over the "2". 

Good luck -- pj

Unlucky, my boss is a musician. He was in the kitchen but knew which G1 or G2 just by listening to the sound.

[BogdanH]

hi hoangbr2014,
I think, that in this case the discussion about difference between Genos1 and Genos2 is quite exaggerated -unless you have wrong settings on Genos2 or your boss owns Carnegie Hall.

As many of us here, I have watched some comparison videos where demonstrator actually tried hard to show the differences in sound quality between those two keyboard (advertising, of course).. and even then, it was many times hard to notice the difference (unless some effects have been used).
And you say that your boss notices the difference from the kitchen, saying that Genos2 is worse? Sorry, I simply don't buy that. I have a feeling that there's something else behind... "your older is better" is many times a sign that someone is trying to be smart (insinuating that you made wrong decision) or simply envy you -especially in case like this, where two keyboards are that similar.

Just my opinion,
Bogdan

[mikf]

In all the hundreds of gigs I played I have had comments about the choice of music, comments about being too loud/too quiet - but never have I had anyone say I have the wrong keyboard model. That's pretty invisible to listeners. The keyboard model might matter to the player, but seldom to anyone else.
Unless he is an arranger player/enthusiast, I don't know how he would even notice.
Unless maybe you are constantly complaining and fiddling with sound adjustments instead of just entertaining his customers?
I have had equipment issues many times at gigs, but short of a complete loss of power or sound, I never let that be known to the listeners. That's stuff the duck is doing under the water.
Mike

[pjd]

That's stuff the duck is doing under the water.

I love this expression. Made my day! 

I was going to (unproductively) tee-off on your boss's hearing. If he is really is a musician, I would ask him "What are you hearing or not hearing -- specifically?" If necessary, tell him that you're about to take a business loss on the keyboard and want to know why Genos2 is not acceptable, before you sell. He owes you an answer.

That's as productive as I can be on limited caffeine this AM.    -- pj

[p$manK32]

I'll just give my thoughts on this as well. I too thought the OP's comment that the boss noticed the G2 sounded worse than G1 from another room is not logical, as Mr. Spock might say   And that other room was a nightclub kitchen, which probably is not quiet.

As an SX900 owner who might consider buying the G2 for it's better piano, the OP's G2 criticism is just too minor to sway me. I don't doubt he is hearing differences in the strike sound, but this is yet another example of a subjective opinion of what a piano should sound like. Now he is selling the G2 along with 2 premium CMS piano packs he also loaded into it. I am figuring he has some expectations for a piano experience that probably can only can be satisfied with a high-end digital piano console.

Rich

[mikf]

Never mind where he was, kitchen or wherever, I can't remember a single hotel or restaurant manager/owner giving a darn about our equipment. They only cared that customers liked us and we were filling the tables every week.
Mike