Genos 2: Transition NIGHTMARES

[Bill]

I have had my G2 over 2 weeks now, and overall I am happy with the KB as a stand alone KB. Obviously Yamaha missed the boat in lots of respects (ie failed to implement what I was hoping for). However the transition from a G1 to the G2 has been a complete nightmare. With the exception of a Tyros 2 I have had all the Tyros and Genos models, but none of the previous changes have been as frustrating as my current problems. It has been 6 years since my last KB change and appreciate I'm 6 years older and likely to forget many things BUT:

1. MIDI SETUP
I am not able to load my previous MIDI setup files, no matter what I do.  I have them on my USB stick and have also copied them to the USER System area. However they simply do not show up when in the Midi setup tab in the main menu screen. I have screen dumps of my previous layout's, so I will get there in the end, but it is slow and un-necessary.
UPDATE:
Yamaha have confirmed the MSU files from G1 do not load. Hence I have started from scratch and completed my objective.

2:  REGISTRATIONS
Many of my old registrations do work quite well, however many of them just do not sound the same. I would not be unhappy if the difference was good. It Is NOT.  I know I can go through them one by one and put them right, but it is not always easy and takes up to much time when I should be Enjoying my new toy.
If you look at 2 registration on the link below you can hear the problems. The second reg is the same one where you can hear the changes I have made. Note I have not finalised these as yet but left different styles voices on each reg selection just to show what can be done.
On the registration that I mention, the style sounded TERRIBLE. It turned out to be the Drum Set applied on Rhythm 2.  Selecting a different
Drum set got rid of horrible sounds.

https://app.box.com/s/58r8s4p9wma3chkdo1bhmwzti2w1mabm

Despite the problems I have I will get there at some point, however there is one good point so far. I have learned something that I should have known many years ago.  I always thought that if you changed a drum kit it would just change the drum sound samples. I did not realise that selecting a different drum kit changes the drum pattern also. I had thought the new sounds would simply follow the midi steps made in the original style setup.   This revelation (to me)  opens up a whole new world.

3:  Most of my expansion pack have installed very well.  I knew beforehand that I had a few packs that were CPF files and would not load.  What I did not realise was how many registrations I had that used styles and voices from these packs. Two packs were (Genos 1 Ver2 Superior pack) and (The One downloaded from Styles2PSR). Jan at Styles2PSR does not support his old site any more.
Having discovered many of my registration no longer worked, I set about trying to see how to go about it.  I attempted to load the two packs from my Packs in YEM but obviously they were locked.  I then looked at my Yamaha Download Manager App on my IPAD and could see the 2 packs showing within the library for the Expansion Area.  Hence I thought it was worth a try putting them back using the download manager. To my surprise the 2 packs were re-installed into the Expansion memory.  Obviously the Voice Elements could not be transferred, but everything else (styles, pads, Reg etc) was copied over.  Most of my registrations that used styles from the Yam Superior packs are now working and only need minor voice tweaks. 
It is interesting that this Yam Download Manager manages to bypass the copyright protection of the CPF Files


If I don't throw the Genos2 and my computer in the bin during the transition period I wiill succeed in the end.

Regards
Bill

[ton37]

Yes, the common problems @Bill. No one ever said it is easy peasy  There are a lot of new sounds/styles/effects on different places ... Once you will succeed and being happy again  Don't know how large your playlist is. Do it step by step... and then stay with the Genos 2, the Genos 3 will be the same problems 

[EileenL]

Oh Dear,
  Sorry you are having so many problems. A lot of the Yamaha packs have now been converted for Genos 2 and once loaded your registrations should pick them up OK.
  A lot of the superior pack styles are now on Genos and those that aren't are on the complete pack they have given us.
  So far I have not had any problems with registrations and they sound really good. I linked my Genos up to my computer via a cable and transferred the content of my User to my computer. I then Just took my 64GB USB and copied it back onto this. Everything is working as it was on Genos. I am now slowly replacing some of the voices with the new ones and some of the lovely new styles.

[musicman01]

Hello Bill,

I experience the same thing regarding midi setup import!!!
It is now impossible to load (.msu) files!
It is a mystery what they want to achieve at Yamaha??
I reluctantly bought the Genos 2 because I am expected to make workshops.
I have been working on GN2 for about 2 days and I have to maintain my position that there is very little improvement to be noticed!!
Still that miserable organ section!!
There is a DX/FM part where 128 notes of polyphony are wasted.
Hopefully it will get better.
I'm experiencing an error in YEM when creating an install pack.
Maybe because I didn't register it??

Happy New Year to all!!

[Amwilburn]

I have had my G2 over 2 weeks now, and overall I am happy with the KB as a stand alone KB. Obviously Yamaha missed the boat in lots of respects (ie failed to implement what I was hoping for). However the transition from a G1 to the G2 has been a complete nightmare. With the exception of a Tyros 2 I have had all the Tyros and Genos models, but none of the previous changes have been as frustrating as my current problems. It has been 6 years since my last KB change and appreciate I'm 6 years older and likely to forget many things BUT:

1. MIDI SETUP
I am not able to load my previous MIDI setup files, no matter what I do.  I have them on my USB stick and have also copied them to the USER System area. However they simply do not show up when in the Midi setup tab in the main menu screen. I have screen dumps of my previous layout's, so I will get there in the end, but it is slow and un-necessary.

2:  REGISTRATIONS
Many of my old registrations do work quite well, however many of them just do not sound the same. I would not be unhappy if the difference was good. It Is NOT.  I know I can go through them one by one and put them right, but it is not always easy and takes up to much time when I should be Enjoying my new toy.
If you look at 2 registration on the link below you can hear the problems. The second reg is the same one where you can hear the changes I have made. Note I have not finalised these as yet but left different styles voices on each reg selection just to show what can be done.
On the registration that I mention, the style sounded TERRIBLE. It turned out to be the Drum Set applied on Rhythm 2.  Selecting a different
Drum set got rid of horrible sounds.

https://app.box.com/s/58r8s4p9wma3chkdo1bhmwzti2w1mabm

Despite the problems I have I will get there at some point, however there is one good point so far. I have learned something that I should have known many years ago.  I always thought that if you changed a drum kit it would just change the drum sound samples. I did not realise that selecting a different drum kit changes the drum pattern also. I had thought the new sounds would simply follow the midi steps made in the original style setup.   This revelation (to me)  opens up a whole new world.

3:  Most of my expansion pack have installed very well.  I knew beforehand that I had a few packs that were CPF files and would not load.  What I did not realize was how many registrations I had that used styles and voices from these packs. Two packs were (Genos 1 Ver2 Superior pack) and (The One downloaded from Styles2PSR). Jan at Styles2PSR does not support his old site any more.
Having discovered many of my registration no longer worked, I set about trying to see how to go about it.  I attempted to load the two packs from my Packs in YEM but obviously they were locked.  I then looked at my Yamaha Download Manager App on my IPAD and could see the 2 packs showing within the library for the Expansion Area.  Hence I thought it was worth a try putting them back using the download manager. To my surprise the 2 packs were re-installed into the Expansion memory.  Obviously the Voice Elements could not be transferred, but everything else (styles, pads, Reg etc) was copied over.  Most of my registrations that used styles from the Yam Superior packs are now working and only need minor voice tweaks. 
It is interesting that this Yam Download Manager manages to bypass the copyright protection of the CPF Files


If I don't throw the Genos2 and my computer in the bin during the transition period I wiill succeed in the end.

Regards
Bill

1. 2.

Yup, like I said I wish they had a 'find best' voice button for registrations like they used to for midi files. All your G1 registrations will work fine on G2 *IF* you used the built in style, because when the G2 loads up that registration with *its* version of the built in style, it'll usually autoload all the new Revelation reverb settings.

But for me, it's been ridiculously time consuming; because I almost always use customs styles. So every registration, every voice, every new drum kit, I need to reassign everything. Hence my post wishing for a Registration auto-revoice button.

One of my customers complained to me: "If you and Craig Knudsen are having so many issues converting *your* custom stuff from G1 to G2, then I'll have a doozy of a time! Maybe I should wait another 4-5 years for Genos 3?"

And I replied that the reason for the difficulty is the G2 is an all new platform, kind of like when styles went to style format 2. New DSPs, New drum kits, etc. And everything custom will need to be remapped. But it's a new *platform*, so going forward all Yamaha TOTLA  will be based on this platform. Which  means you'll have to do even *more* if you go from G1 to G3.

So if you think *this* is a nightmare Bill, imagine if you waited til G3... there would be even more stuff to re-do!

3. Yamaha download manager? it can strip the copy protection from CPF??? Who makes it? thanks!

Mark

[Bill]

Hi All those that responded so far.

Many thanks for all the comments. I have to admit the problems had become a fixation that was stopping me from enjoying my new toy. I think I just need to be patient.

I have had another problem though. I was simply going through all my registrations using the Registration plus button. After half an hour the button simply stopped working. I switched off the KB but the problem was still there. I also did a soft reset without a result. After another hour, the button started working again, very strange.

I have contacted Yamaha support via their support web site.

I suppose it is to be expected to have some bugs at this early stage.

Mark: i shall not be telling Yamaha about the copyright override when using their own App.

Again, many thanks.
Bill

[DrakeM]

From this thread it appears it is best to not use Registrations. They do not move from keyboard to new keyboard seamlessly.

All my styles are Custom song styles, one for each song and stored on a USB stick.

So when I upgrade to the next SX keyboard, will these styles automatically link to the correct LEGACY drum kits and voice without a hitch?

[jimlaing]

Wasn't there a program (on computer) that could 'translate' Registrations from one keyboard to another?  I have ~900 Registrations that I'd need to migrate to G2 if I buy G2.  I understand and realize that they can't just work without any effort to utilize the new sounds, reverb, styles - but I'm hoping it's not a months-long effort to migrate them . . . Thanks, -Jim

[spaceair]

is that normal that registrations from sx 900 just dont whana load?
it say the reg. is not properly loaded and that is all... in normal situations did registrations load just some voices did stay empty...

[BogdanH]

We must keep in mind, that registrations are hardware specific (tied to particular keyboard) and we should never assume our registrations will work properly on another keyboard. In short: registrations are not interchangeable between different keyboard models -registrations are only our personal settings for our keyboard.

It's not only personal settings like volume of R1 voice... It's also where from used voices, styles, pads, etc. are loaded. And if they're not where registrations expect them to be, it just won't work -and that's just one example.
Yes, sometimes we can use them on another similar keyboard model, sometimes we only need to make small changes for them to work properly and sometimes they're simply unusable (we shouldn't be surprised if that happens).

Bogdan

[Dnj]

With a new keyboard and I have had many arrangers I always like to start from scratch setting it up. yes its a lot of homework but in the end you discover new & exciting things you never thought about which allows your music to become fresh again as you go along in your new journey....dig in and create music instead of the same old thing.... there lies the fun...good luck.

[jimlaing]

Interesting conversation for sure ... when I moved to a new Yamaha keyboard (or, years before, a new Technics keyboard), I always 'migrated' my existing Registrations, then spent a GOOD amount of time revising them to take advantage of the new features/sounds/etc. on the newer keyboard.  I usually keep my old keyboard for several months, setting up the old and new side-by-side in my music room ... making it easy to compare, check settings on the old one, etc. etc.  I usually re-select all the Voices (L, R1, R2, R3) to get their newest settings and effects; I re-select the style (same one, or in some cases trying new ones).  I often have to re-adjust balance of volumes a bit ... decide on whether to mute (turn 'off') some channels, etc.  I did this approach from Tyors1 to Tyros3, then from T3 to T5, then from T5 to Genos (1).

With ~900+ registrations (now), this seemed/seems the best approach ... I'm not sure how much longer it would take me to "start totally from scratch" rather than doing what I describe above.  Perhaps I'll try doing a few "from scratch" rather than by starting with an old Registration, to see how that process goes.

I do wish there were an "automatable" way to do the more obvious and simple steps, rather than doing those by hand 900 times!  That's where I thought there used to be a computer program someone had developed, that would let you at least somewhat modify Registrations toward a newer keyboard - perhaps saving some time even if I still want to do some customizing to take best advantage of new features etc.

[sh]

I feel the pain of optimizing the old Genos 1 registrations to the new machine. I am in the middle of the process to optimize my Genos 1 registrations to the new Genos 2 capabilities. Although it is really painful and time consuming the result is worth every minute. The songs sound clearer, more realistic, more natural on Genos 2.

The most annoying things are:

• 
  The new catch functionality of the sliders drives me nuts. I literally need twice the time to change values since I always have to move the sliders to catch the existing value before I can set the new one. This is very annoying and far from being practical. I can fully understand that for some people jumping values could be problematic when performing live, but in case no style is currently being played the catch function should be deactivated because then it makes absolutely no sense. I honestly hope that Yamaha will address this in a future firmware update. I would also be fine if the catch function could be deactivated completely since it never missed that on Genos 1.


• 
  As mentioned earlier by others it would be great if there would be an option to copy a new setting to all registrations within the current registration bank file. So f.ex. if I change the vocal harmony or the voice for one registration it would be great to be able to copy this to the other regs with one click. This would save me a lot of time. I hope that Yamaha will address this in a future firmware update as well.
  

Besides these main annoyances I am more than happy with the overall sound of Genos 2 and don't regret the upgrade from Genos 1.

[Bill]

Hi All

Update from Technical Support.

Q: Bug1: Inability to load Midi Set Up files from previous Genos1. Ie MSU files will not load.
A: Because of changes to the MIDI specification between the Genos & the Genos2 'MIDI Setup' files that were created on the Genos are not compatible with the Genos2. This means that you will not be able to load this older MIDI setup into the Genos2.

Q: Bug2: While using the Registration + button to review my existing registrations the button stopped working for about an hour. I switched off the KB and also did a soft reset without a fix. After about an hour the function returned as normal. Possible bug in the software.
A: This is something that I have not heard of happening and is not something that I have experienced myself, can I ask if you have updated the firmware of the Genos2 to the latest version

Regards
Bill

[EileenL]

This may help.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_Uwn0Oaocg

[Bill]

Thanks Eileen

I must say that Yamaha are doing a good job this time around with Tutorial Video's.  Yamaha Tech Support never changes though, they are always Brilliant.

Bill

[Amwilburn]

From this thread it appears it is best to not use Registrations. They do not move from keyboard to new keyboard seamlessly.

All my styles are Custom song styles, one for each song and stored on a USB stick.

So when I upgrade to the next SX keyboard, will these styles automatically link to the correct LEGACY drum kits and voice without a hitch?

This unfortunately is the actual crux of the problem, anyone who has lots of custom styles (like myself) will find that using those brings up the same literal dsp's as the keyboards they were programmed on; and to optimize on G2, you'll want to swap in the new drums and dsps; in other words, loading up custom styles will sound exactly the same as they did before, with no improvements (which is fine if you just want the same result as before, minimal additional work).

But once you hear what the G2 is capable of? You'll want to translate into the new DSP's (which we can assume will remain going forward, meaning all future Yamaha arrangers will likely be on the same baselines of DSP's and drum kits).

So Ironically, if you had *no* custom styles and always used internal styles? As the internal styles automatically bring up the new DSP's, your registrations are ready to go!
If you did everything by custom style (and I mostly did), then nothing will sound different when you load up on G2. To take advantage of the new sounds, you'll need to tweak quite *a lot* (as the OP and I have discovered) to really bring your old registrations and styles up to the current gen.

Now, unlike me, if you don't need to keep the registrations from before (for compatibility reasons) and you only want to update to G2? The simpler solution is to rework the custom style your registration uses to G2 spec, and resave over the original spot (thus theoretically automatically calling up the new G2 version of your old custom style). But as i need to keep multiple versions of each registration (for CVP, PSR, Genos, etc) I can't simply overwrite the original style as that would no longer be readable by the other versions of registrations. Although from what i understand, Murray's YRM should let me change paths to a new style, thus enabling me to make a G2 version of my custom style first and then re-link the new registrations to that... I think?

But most people won't have that problem!

Mark

[Bill]

MIDI Templates:

As stated in previous post, Yamaha have stated that old MSU files are not compatible with the Genos 2.
The Genos 2 now uses a MIS extension.  Changing the MSU extension to MIS does not work either.

Hope the info is useful to those that use MIDI templates.

Bill

[EileenL]

My custom styles still sound darn good in Genos2 as do my old registrations.

[Graham UK]

There comes a point when a new model can no longer be backward compatible for the benefits of advancement.
Unfortunately Yamaha did not state this which would have given the customer a choice whether to upgrade Genos or not.

If Genos 2 had been given a completely new name identify these compatibility complaints may have been avoided.

[BogdanH]

There comes a point when a new model can no longer be backward compatible for the benefits of advancement.

-absolutely agree on that.

Unfortunately Yamaha did not state this which would have given the customer a choice whether to upgrade Genos or not.

Yamaha also didn't state that Genos2 is 100% backward compatible. Actually no keyboard is -if it would be, then that would mean there's no improvement.

I don't believe that those who switched from Genos1 to Genos2 are actually surprised by registrations incompatibility. Because most Genos1 owners are/were informed and experienced enough (they know how registrations work) and so they can/could predict consequences at upgrading.
What I'm saying is, TOTL keyboard owners are not newbies and so I don't understand complaints in this regard.

Bogdan

[EileenL]

All of us that have moved to newer models know that some work is required to get the keyboard as we want it. If you watch the link I have posted above you will see that it is not complicated to get your old content onto the new keyboard easily and it will sound good. Because Genos2 has so many new great voices it is obvious that we will be changing some of our registrations to use these and that is all part of what it is all about. Technology moves on and we must move with it.

[sh]

I have to disagree here. Technically, it would be very easy to keep the existing factory styles on new models and only add new one since styles are using very few memory.
To remove / rename existing styles  is the worst decision since it makes our life unnessary complicated.

The good news is that there is a way for existing owners of Genos 1 to keep all their registrations using factory styles intact by copying all factory styles to USB stick and then use the copies them on the G2.
In this case you still would have the unaltered / original styles and they'd sound identical (or even enhanced) on Genos 2. But removing or renaming factory styles on a new model really can't be justified by any argument, at least to me it makes no sense at all. It just steals our time that could be better spent making music.

A good explaination for this is the following video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbCG_q4NBpU

[spaceair]

yamaha made a real mess of the registrations by removing the old styles. In the update it would be good to save them in the legacy folder and save a lot of time for all of us!

[ton37]

In addition to @sh post: deepening the discussion. Use the 'translator' to English. Conclusion: the reference in the registrations (the link) is the biggest problem and requires the most work to fix, especially for those who are 'dependent' on 'large' playlists. E.g. producers (third parties) of registrations. Hence this 'cry from the heart'. But of course that also applies to all users.
See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04LyTxQjuI8

Her (Heidruns) tip: copy the styles you using in a registration and save them on a USB-stick, together with the registration!

[ton37]

yamaha made a real mess of the registrations by removing the old styles. In the update it would be good to save them in the legacy folder and save a lot of time for all of us!

PS. if the styles are placed in the legacy folder, you even have to change all your registrations as they are in another folder!

[bpsafran]

I have to disagree here. Technically, it would be very easy to keep the existing factory styles on new models and only add new one since styles are using very few memory.
To remove / rename existing styles  is the worst decision since it makes our life unnessary complicated.

The good news is that there is a way for existing owners of Genos 1 to keep all their registrations using factory styles intact by copying all factory styles to USB stick and then use the copies them on the G2.
In this case you still would have the unaltered / original styles and they'd sound identical (or even enhanced) on Genos 2. But removing or renaming factory styles on a new model really can't be justified by any argument, at least to me it makes no sense at all. It just steals our time that could be better spent making music.

A good explaination for this is the following video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbCG_q4NBpU

But if you copy the internal styles to a USB stick don't your old registrations point to "internal" styles so that you would have to modify the "Drive" and Folder of the copied styles on your USB (even if they are a copy of the internal styles), by editing each registration manually?

[sh]

But if you copy the internal styles to a USB stick don't your old registrations point to "internal" styles so that you would have to modify the "Drive" and Folder of the copied styles on your USB (even if they are a copy of the internal styles), by editing each registration manually?

Yes, that's true. But I guess you could use a batch tool to do this automatically.

[BogdanH]

...
A good explaination for this is the following video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbCG_q4NBpU

Ok, Soundwonderland is making styles and registrations and what they wish is, that the same registrations and styles would work perfect on Genos1 and Genos2 -that would obviously make their work easier.
But that's impossible! -because Genos2 has additional voices built-in, which don't exist on Genos2. Besides that, Genos2 also has few options/settings that don't exist on Genos1, which (according to owners here) improve the sound realism.

Let's say I have Genos2 and wish to buy style/registration pack for my keyboard. If I would see, that the same pack is Genos1 compatible, then that means that improved Genos2 features/voices aren't used in that pack. Why would Genos2 owner buy such pack? To exaggerate a bit, it's like buying a pack where only XG/GM2 voices are used (for sake of compatibility).

I can understand those who use keyboard professionally, because there can be a lot of work to adapt existing musical repertoire to new keyboard. But if it's used professionally, then that work is part of business -which at the end will (hopefully) result with better sounding music... which is the reason why we buy better keyboard after a while.

I just can't understand all that whining   
Bogdan

[EileenL]

I have to agree Bogdan,
  I am one of those people that always saves the styles of the keyboard I am changing so I have Styles right from the 9000pro to Genos1 keyboards. A lot of these may be the same apart from some have different Intro's etc. and it is nice to have a change.
I understand that some styles have had there names changed and this could be down to copywrite as Yamaha are very hot on this, hence in some demo's you will not know the song but guess what the style will be suitable to play.