Genos2 styles on PSR-SX

[BogdanH]

Information for those who are playing with idea to try Genos2 built-in (user) styles on PSR-SX (or older) keyboards.

Few days ago I downloaded a pack of styles taken from Genos2 (honestly, I forgot where from). I was mainly curious about compatibility with older keyboards and less about differences in quality. I have only tried few styles which have the same naming on Genos2 and on (my) SX700.

Yes, it's possible to load Genos2 styles on PSR-SX: there's no incompatibility message shown and they work. As is to be expected, most voices used in styles, are using Genos specific voices which PSR-SX doesn't recognize and in most cases, PSR-SX won't find substitute for these voices. Means, we will not hear all channels in style and as such, styles are totally unusable.
And so I replaced Genos2 specific voices with those that are in PSR-SX. Which voices to use as replacement was easy enough to find, because (as said) I used the same style from each keyboard. And so (for the same style) I just replaced Genos2 voices with those that are used on PSR-SX. Now result was better: at least I could hear all instruments playing. But here it pretty much ends... Sound wise, the result is very bad. That is, the style from Genos2 sounds much worse than the same style that's inside PSR-SX.
The reason for that is simple: although style has exactly the same rhythm and the same number of channels (voices) are used, style itself is created differently! It's created to make benefits of Genos2 voices. For easier understanding: let's say a normal voice is used for bass guitar and you substitute it with MegaVoice bass guitar -yes, it will most probably sound like cr**.

In short: no matter what you do, Genos2 styles (at least big majority of them) are totally unusable on PSR-SX series.

I hope I saved you some time 
Bogdan

[DerekA]

Remember that the G2 style will, by default, be using a REV reverb so when you try it on SX (or G1 for that matter) there will be no reverb. This makes quite a different, just assign one of the reverbs you do have and it will be better.

I admin though, when you try a G2 style on say a G1, then switch back to one of the "native" preset styles, the presets sound much better ...

I am sure someone will make it a mission to produce useable versions of the G2 styles for other boards. It probably needs to be someone who has access to both, to get a good match on the voice selection.

[DrakeM]

I have posted and shared the 12 new country styles in the G2 and the Desert Adventure and had no problem reworking them to work just fine in my PSR-S950.

There is an issue with the RHY1 in most of the G2 styles (not all however). So I have not been filling in that missing voice (don't need it in most cases). Yamaha has either invented a new drum kit that they are using or what I imagine the drummer is doing in off to my ears. 

I had not planned to covert more styles but I have been slowly working on the 25 new "Oldies" styles of the G2. It takes about 30 minutes to convert each style. They start off sounding really bad, but as long as I have an idea of what the style should sound like I am having no issue revoicing and balancing them to sound perfectly fine.

I started with the  "3-4 Chart Waltz" style and that style sounded weird when I first stuck it in my S950. I reworked it just fine using the Revo drum cleaner, OTSviewer and the Revioce Style programs. Then anything those programs can not figure out, I use my ears. There is one new click sound the program is missing to remove and I just remove it with the Style Creator Editor. It is in the RHY2 main and is "F#0" as I recall (or close to that code).

The next 2 styles were easy to fix, as I knew what song they were made to play. The "50sFloorFillerPop" is for La Bomba" and the "60sBigHit" is for "Let It Be". Yamaha already gave us styles to do these 2 songs in the past. These new styles are just filled with mains much closer to the actual song this time around.

The rest of the "Oldies" styles, I don't have a clue as to what song they are to be used with but I'll keep slowly converting them. I can always find a use for them when making custom song styles.

[BogdanH]

hi Derek,
In my opinion this has nothing to do with reverb or similar additional effects. I think many (new) voices that Genos2 has, have different layer/velocity structure. Normal vs MegaVoice bass is a good example of that: if we wish to substitute these two, we need to modify each note separately (velocity and maybe duration). And even if someone does that, the result won't be even close, because normal bass voice doesn't contain effect samples (i.e. for fret).

The question remains: is it worth and what's good enough? For me, it's not. But I can understand those who are happy by having them.

Bogdan

[Graham UK]

I have always accepted that a style made for a certain keyboard will never sound the same as the board it was made for...but that is not the reason for trying and using that style because making adjustments is all part of this wonderful hobby we are attached to.

I understand some players just want to switch on and play but a little understanding how your keyboard works and with a few adjustments we can make these boards our own.
Most times I myself just switch on and play but I'm using Registrations that I have made my own by making adjustments to and happy with.

[BogdanH]

hi Graham,

.. a style made for a certain keyboard will never sound the same as the board it was made for...but that is not the reason for trying and using that style because making adjustments is all part of this wonderful hobby we are attached to.

I agree on that.. especially in this case (Genos vs PSR-S) where differences are significant. Yes, that was also the reason why I was making this experiment: to find out if I can benefit by converting them.
When we say conversion result is good enough.. well, "good enough" is very stretchy term and so everyone is entitled to agree or disagree on that.

Greetings,
Bogdan

[pjd]

Hi --

It's deja vu all over again. 

Simple summary: Neither SX700 or SX900 have Revo drums (at a minimum). Revo drums have different note-to-instrument mappings than "ordinary" drum kits. If you play a Revo style with a regular drum kit, you will hear extraneous noises and some drum instruments will not be heard at all.

Long story: https://sandsoftwaresound.net/genos-hi-hat-happiness/

We went through this discovery process after Genos1 was released. Search old messages in the Forum and you will see all of this in retrospect. 

Revo drum notes need to be mapped to the equivalent drum instrument notes in "ordinary" legacy kits. Jorgen built a utility program called "Revo Drum Cleaner":

http://www.jososoft.dk/yamaha/software.htm

I wrote a Java program to remap notes. I can provide the code, if I can find it...

Yep, it's a lot more work to convert Revo to legacy drum kits. I haven't looked at Ambi Drums yet -- there may be new surprises.

Hope this helps -- pj

[BogdanH]

Hi pj,
From what I could hear, this time (with Genos2) it's not only about Revo drums. At least in few styles that I checked, Genos2 is using a lot of DX7 voices and after replacing them with with normal equivalent voices, result doesn't sound right. It sounds worse than if the same original PSR-SX style is being used -which was actually the point of my post.
But yes, it probably depend on case to case what result we will get after conversion.

Bogdan

[DrakeM]

After running the G2 styles through the Revo Drum Cleaner program the only sound I am not happy with, is when the style uses the F#0 note. I simply change them all to the C#1 drum note and it's perfect. I have been working on 26 of the G2 styles and no problems yet.

As far as changing out voices in the styles, most of them are all still there in the style. My keyboard finds a sub and thus keeps the reverb (and other effects) the G2 style is using. Again it sounds prefect. I then just fill in the occasional missing voice using the one suggested by the Style Revoicer program.

OTS voices are about half the time still there in the style with the proper reverb and effect settings as well.

These styles are defiantly not sounding messed up or wrong in the least. Again I spend about 30 minutes on each style updating it and balancing out all the style parts.

[Enildo]

Hello

I downloaded it yesterday and listened to it on my sx900. Many played without having to change anything, some needed to change the drums, bass and other tracks.
Others needed to increase or decrease the volume. Some also need to use a reverb. From what I understand, you can use many styles, or perhaps all of them, by making the necessary edits.
Maybe you'll have to get your hands dirty for some, to record some things on your fingers and for others you'll be able to use "Assembly", to import something from another pre-existing style.

I'm with you Drake!
Enido

[pjd]

At least in few styles that I checked, Genos2 is using a lot of DX7 voices and after replacing them with with normal equivalent voices, result doesn't sound right. It sounds worse than if the same original PSR-SX style is being used -which was actually the point of my post.

Hi Boghan --

Thanks for investigating because I'll play with a few G2 styles on G1.

As to revoicing, well, that is just Standard Operating Procedure (SOP) when we port styles. 

In the case of DX7 voices, I wonder if Yamaha is changing DX7 voice parameters in the styles? Sampled DX7 voices may not respond in the same way as true FM-X voices to MIDI CC, NRPN, XG voice parameters and so forth.

There is soooo much to explore, I'm not sure when I will get to all of this! 

Take care -- pj

[BogdanH]

hi pj,
Yes, I agree that revoicing is (usually) standard procedure and that in most cases one can get good (close to original) results. However, at least for me, this time that wasn't the case. But then, some can get good results and so.. everything is fine, I guess 

Greetings,
Bogdan

[pjd]

Just played around with three Genos2 styles on Genos1.

I know it doesn't help SX people, but I could substitute a Revo kit for a similar Ambient kit. Since the Ambi kits and Revo kits have similar (or the same) note-to-instrument mappings, the result is pretty easy to obtain.

I spent time mapping Revo to non-Revo legacy kits and, man, that's a lot of work!

Maybe I got lucky -- I substituted a sub bass for a DX7 bass.

As usual, YMMV. 

I wasn't going to let you guys have all the fun and glory -- pj     

[pjd]

I played around with a half dozen or so Genos2 styles yesterday.

That FunkPop style is funky as ____. If Yamaha made a whole keyboard like that, I would buy it in a heart beat.

Anyway, a few more observations.

Watch out for rhythm parts using the Production Kit (Ambi) and Dirty Kit (Ambi). Those kits have low drum notes (MIDI note numbers 4 through 12) that aren't covered by a Revo kit. In other words, you can't substitute a Revo kit and hear all the kick notes!

Yamaha dropped REVelation just about everywhere. So, always check the reverb type and set it to REAL REVERB or whatever.

Genos2 has a new 3-band compressor. It has the same MSB (106) as DISTOMP. In Genos1, Yamaha put compressor inserts on almost everything (except parts needing distortion, pan, delay or whatever). Expect Multiband Comp to pop up. In this case, if the Mixer can't find Multiband Comp, it shows "THRU" instead.

Honest, I wish Genos3 was all funk.    Time to drop that retro junk. Geez, I'm 72 and I ain't done funkin'. Hire George Clinton and Sly.  Don't forget your sunglasses.

Take care -- pj

[dragonkeys]

Hello!

Try with this expansion pack.

https://playsoundsusa.wixsite.com/playsounds-store/copia-de-g-master-keys-complete-1

Best Regards.

[AdamRastrand1234]

Yes, i agree that they sound really really bad, as with genos 1 styles, but 99,999 procent of drakes styles sound good, it was just the ge2 country styles that sounded very very off. But, isnt there any softwares out there wich comverts styles from to different yamaha keyboards, or anything like that? And, are genos2 sounds really great or new compared to genos 1, if we set the new reverb, and fm-synth and ambient drums aside?

[AdamRastrand1234]

I have a great idea! You can go into the voice menu where you can select right 1 voice, and then you go up with the small arrow button at the bottom of the right corner, then you go to the top of the folder structure, press the file selection button, and then copy. Then you tab into the USB-stick, go into the File menu and press paste. Then you get all the sounds from genos2 or sx-900 at least, provided that you have accses to those keyboards, right? If I'm wrong, correct me.

[EileenL]

You can not transfer any voices from a different keyboard into a different one.

[overover]

I have a great idea! You can go into the voice menu where you can select right 1 voice, and then you go up with the small arrow button at the bottom of the right corner, then you go to the top of the folder structure, press the file selection button, and then copy. Then you tab into the USB-stick, go into the File menu and press paste. Then you get all the sounds from genos2 or sx-900 at least, provided that you have accses to those keyboards, right? If I'm wrong, correct me.

Hi Adam,

By copying a "Voice" in the Voice Selection display, you only get so-called "Voice Set" files (also called "User Voice" files). These only work if the corresponding Voice is present on the keyboard in question. Such Voice Set files are basically small MIDI files and only contain the reference to a specific Preset or Expansion Voice (MSB/LSB/ProgramChange) as well as the necessary MIDI controllers and Sy*** to set the underlying Preset/Expansion Voice.

So, as Eileen already mentioned, Preset Voices cannot be copied to other keyboards. And in the case of Expansion Voices, it only works if they are available in a pack format that is compatible with the target keyboard.


Best regards,
Chris

[AdamRastrand1234]

Oh, ok i understand. But why cant you copy the whole sampled voices, and for now just the midi parameters? Thats understandably weird, since i think that the USB-stick will maybe be full, but isnt there a software or something like that, which can extract the original sounds from the voice-set files, and then just create new voices with PPI-files?

[BogdanH]

hello Adam,
Let's just say that voice samples are Yamaha's property (a secret recipe) which Yamaha isn't ready to share.
And no, there's no software available that would copy voice samples from keyboard or decrypt protected (cpf) files.

Bogdan

[overover]

Oh, ok i understand. But why cant you copy the whole sampled voices, and for now just the midi parameters? Thats understandably weird, since i think that the USB-stick will maybe be full, but isnt there a software or something like that, which can extract the original sounds from the voice-set files, and then just create new voices with PPI-files?

Hi Adam,

the Wave data of the Preset Voices are not stored in the User drive (eMMC memory) but in the internal Wave memory (NAND Flash memory). The user has no access to it, so the content cannot be extracted. The contents of this Preset Wave memory can only be changed by Yamaha via Firmware updates.

If you want the Preset Voices of a larger/newer model, you have to buy this one. Or you can sample the desired voices from this larger keyboard and use them to create Expansion Voices for the smaller model. However, this requires a great deal of specialist knowledge, and these self-created Expansion Voices will probably be many gigabytes in size, so they will never all fit into the Expansion Wave of your keyboard.

So please stop wasting your time trying to transfer Preset Voices from larger models to your keyboard. Use what you have (and what you paid for), or buy a larger/better model.


Best regards,
Chris

[DerekA]

You know Chris, there is some irony in your signature quotes given your (correct) reply to Adam.... 😋😋

[BogdanH]

Hahaha.. good catch Derek 

[overover]

You know Chris, there is some irony in your signature quotes given your (correct) reply to Adam.... 😋😋

Yes, I completely agree with you, Derek. But the quotes in my signature really apply, I think. It has happened several times that no one believed in the solution to a particular (usually technical) problem, but I was still able to help solve it.


Best regards,
Chris

[DerekA]

I'm just teasing you Chris. Your breadth and depth of knowledge is quite remarkable.

[overover]

I'm just teasing you Chris. Your breadth and depth of knowledge is quite remarkable.

All right, that's how I understood it too, Derek. Thank you for your kind words!


Best regards,
Chris

[AdamRastrand1234]

yes, but is there any software out there wich can comvert styles from and to keyboards? Or is it not made yet? And, is Onasimus working on new convertions, or is he active?

[BogdanH]

@Adam
No, there's no such software specialized on that. There are tools (mostly made by individuals) that serve some style specific tasks, like revoicing" tools, but the job simply must be done manually. Revoicing the style is not problematic -what is important, resulting style should sound good. But.. what is good for me, is not necessary good enough for you!
What I'm saying is, if for example, I like certain style from Genos2, then I will try to convert it myself so it will sound to my liking -because nobody else knows what I like.

Bogdan

[AdamRastrand1234]

thanks for your support. But, ai is making rapid progress, so soon it may be able to listen to genos-styles, check through the MIDI files on genos, play them in the sx-600 and fix everything automatic, it will probably work, but we'll see.🎁 But, I would gladly convert genos2 styles to sx-600 if it had voice guide, but now it doesn't have it, but I have tyros1 tyros2 styles, but also onasimus psr-sx910 styles on psr-SX600 but some styles on "my sx600" sound rather strange, the guitars are too loud, the organs
sounds like an organ and doesn't change type, but does the s910 have more effects and stuff like an sx-600? And, i also have a question about the midi to style software, how does it work really? Does it use ai to know the intro, outro and main etc, or does it use the method where it find loopaple bars and make it to a style? Also, the bass doesnt change, for example, it plays just c c c c instead of c g c g?