What would a real BASS player play when accompanying you? Using a MULTI PAD.

[Hugh Tyros 4]

What would a real BASS player play when accompanying you playing your song?

When you play a song using a STYLE you have a 'band' that plays along with you, with a drummer, a bass player, and various other instruments like guitars etc. all blending together to make a suitable backing.  But let's be clear .. in this situation, it is you that is playing your song to 'fit in with the band'. This STYLE you have chosen would sound the same with any melody you played. This is not what happens when you have a real band accompanying you. A real band would play rhythms and counter melodies to fit your song.

In this topic I want to concentrate on just one member of the band (the BASS player) and see what he/she would be playing to complement the melody of your song.

So first, let's have a listen to what my song sounds like with the 'automatic bass' playing.  In this example, I have used three different STYLES.
Click the below to listen.

https://audio.com/hugh-ar/audio/michaelrowstyle

The bass player in the above is just playing the ROOT and FIFTH all the time .. until he gets to the verse with the Guitar, where he does a little 'skip' (hooray!).  Trouble is, the bass note is ROOT, ROOT, ROOT all the time!  This is not what a real bass player would do when accompanying you 'live'.

[Hugh Tyros 4]

One thought I had was that I have often used a MULTIPAD to add a 'counter melody' to a song I have been playing.  So why not create a Multipad for the Bass Player?  Here below is how I have done this.

When I create my MULTIPAD I need a VOICE set up in R1.  From the BASS section I have chosen LowBass (tossed between that and AcousticBass).



As I would be playing the bass notes with my right hand and not my left, I would want to play them in the region just below Middle C .. so I needed the VOICE to be an octave lower than it was.  In the MIXING CONSOLE, I dropped the R1 voice to -2.



With all the other Multipads I have done, the notes I have played have all been to the right of the Split Point.  But playing a BASS part?  Would need to go below my split point.  So have gone to the Split Point page ...





... and wound the black wheel round to the left until the Split Point was as far down as it would go.



I then headed for the MULTIPAD CREATOR page.

To get at the MULTI PAD screen, in the MENU, choose DIGITAL RECORDING ...



... and then choose MULTI PAD CREATOR.



The screen you get has to be set up for the type of MULTIPAD you want to create.  You can create four different Multipads for the song you are playing and can trigger which one/ones you want when you want it/them.  In this example I am only making one Multipad, so I am making my choices for PAD1.



There are two ways you can set up a MULTIPAD. 

1.  You can record some notes, and when you trigger the MULTIPAD when playing your song  the Multipad will play those notes back at you exactly as you played them.  For this DEMO I will be playing Michael Row The Boat Ashore in G, so if doing it this way I would have to play the bass notes I want to hear in the key of G.  Note:  Creating a Multipad is not like putting in a PART in a STYLE.  A STYLE 'repeats' the pattern according to the 'measure' of the Style (ie. how many bars elapse before the pattern repeats itself).  With a MULTIPAD you play notes to follow the melody, so can put notes in for a whole verse.  Any REPEAT will take place when playing a second verse .. and if you don't want it doing that (eg. because you are playing the CHORUS next) you will have to turn the MULTIPAD OFF.

If you click the below you can listen to the bass notes I want (in G).

https://audio.com/hugh-ar/audio/michaelbass1

If you read music, these are the notes to play.



Of course doing it this way the MULTIPAD can only be used when the piece is being played in the key of G.  I shall be doing my BASS part with the CHORD MATCH ON .. then the Multipad can be used when playing the song in any key.

2.  The second way of doing a MULTIPAD is to have the CHORD MATCH  ON, and then you have to record all your notes in C (ie. with C as the ROOT).

CHORD MATCH means that it will play 'intervals' based on the root of the chord you are playing.  You have to RECORD everything with C as the root.  To get the MULTIPAD to play specific notes, you have to work out the interval relative to the chord you are playing at that point (sorry, it's getting complicated now).  So, for example, if at a certain point in the song you were playing the chord of F and wanted the bass to 'walk up' F, G, A, to Bb (and at that point were playing a Bb chord) .. the actual notes you would play for your MULTIPAD (based on C as the root) would be C, D, E, C.  This 'walking up' from C would actually be 'walking up' from F, as that is the chord you will be playing.  And yes, that last note you have to record as a C because at that point you have just walked up from F and are playing a Bb chord, and the Bb you want to hear is the root of the chord you are playing.  In the key of C, C is the root.  So you record the note C.

I have set up the options as below (arrowed blue).



REPEAT means it will repeat the notes you program in.  But note ... the REPEAT is not like a STYLE, which repeats every 'Measure'.  The MULTIPAD 'repeats' whatever you program in .. which can be for a whole verse (and that is what I shall be doing here) .. so I don't even have to think about what the STYLE is doing .. only what the melody is doing.

I have worked out all the 'intervals' in the DEMO above relative to the actual chords I play in the song, and transferred these to intervals with C as the ROOT.  You can hear what these notes are (when playing them with C as the 'root') by clicking the below.

https://audio.com/hugh-ar/audio/michaelbass2

And if you read music, these are the notes to play.



When you have decided what notes you are going to play, press the RECORD and the Multipad will be WAITING for you to start the recording.



ie. WAITING for you to press a note to start the recording.

START THE METRONOME GOING .. then you will be able to keep time with your recording,  The louder 'clang' is on the first beat of the bar.

If you want to start recording on the first beat of the bar, then press the SYNC START (so it's flashing).  It'll then still be WAITING for you to press that first note.   Do that when you hear the Metronome 'clang' on the first beat of the bar.

If you want to start playing notes after the first beat of the bar, then press the START on the first beat of the bar and come in with playing notes where you want to hear them.

Next question.  When do you STOP the MULTIPAD?  Answer: At the end of the bar at the end of the verse.  Then the REPEAT will start on the first beat of the next verse.  You STOP it by pressing the STOP showing on the screen; or the START/STOP button by the SYNC START.



You then have to SAVE the MULTIPAD you have created (give it a NAME).

When using this MULTIPAD BASS you have just created you have to set up your STYLE with the BASS PART turned OFF .. otherwise you will get the standard 'default' Yamaha bass part playing along with your Multipad.

And how does all this sound with the MULTIPAD replacing the 'default' Yamaha BASS?
Click the below to listen.

https://audio.com/hugh-ar/audio/michael-row-the-boat-ashore2

As a piece of music, I'd much rather listen to that, with the bass part tailored to the melody, than the version with the 'default' Yamaha bass you heard in the start of my topic.

Hugh

Edit (by Hugh): Images are now LINKED to a new 'cloud' storage.  Text has not been edited.

[Hugh Tyros 4]

The below is basically more explanation of what I have said above.

The notes to be played for the BASS in 2. above are based on having the MULTIPAD in CHORD MATCH ON mode.  This means the Miultipad will play it's 'pattern of notes' based on the chord you are actually playing at the time.  To work in this mode, you have to record your notes as 'intervals, with C as the root'.

Playing the piece in G, the actual chords I play for Michael Row The Boat Ashore are:

These are chords.
/ G - - - / G7 - - - / C - - - / G - - - /
/ Bm - - - / Am - - - / Bm - D7 - / G - - - /

Let's take a look at those last two bars.  If I was playing an organ with foot pedals, the actual notes I would play for the Bass (as it's in the key of G) are:

These are notes.
/ B D E F# / G - - - / (ie. 'walking' my bass up from B to G).

When recording the Miltipad in CHORD MATCH mode I have to record everything as 'intervals' with C as the root.
So if I want to hear my bass notes just following the 'root' of the chords I am playing above, I would have to do my recording as:

These are notes.
/ C - - - / C - - - / C - - - / C - - - /
/ C - - - / C - - - / C - C - / C - - - /

Instead of thinking of those notes as 'C', think of those notes as the 'root' of the chord you are playing at the time. 
So the bass notes you will hear are not 'C' all the time, but the note that is the 'root' of the chord you are playing for the song.

These are BASS notes, not chords.
/ G - - - / G - - - / C - - - / G - - - /
/ B - - - / A - - - / B - D - / G - - - /

Looking at those last two bars.  I will be playing the chord of Bm and the bass notes I want are B, D.  With C as the root, those notes would be C, Eb (ie. the 1st and 3rd notes of Cm).
The next chord is D7, and the bass notes I want are E, F# (ie, 2nd and 3rd notes of the scale starting on D).  With C as root, the 2nd and 3rd notes in the scale of C are D, E.
The last bass note is G (on a G chord).  So with C as root that is C.

So (as you can see in the music score above) those last bass notes of / B D E F# / G - - - / have to be programmed in as / C Eb D E / C - - - /.

If I've lost you .. perhaps give up on this one!

But, if you want to do a BASS using a MULTIPAD, all is not lost.  If you turn the CHORD MATCH to OFF then you can program in the actual notes you want to hear (in the key of G) and they will be played back at you 'as is'.

This way of doing it is mentioned as 1. (above).

[Hugh Tyros 4]

The advantage of setting up a MULTIPAD using Method 2 above (with the CHORD MATCH ON) is that it will give you the bass pattern in whatever key you play your piece in.  The disadvantage is that all the notes you want to hear have to be put in as 'intervals' with C as the root.  Takes a bit of working out what these notes should be!  Also, if the chords in the piece you are playing are changing rapidly (eg. as in Theme From A Summer Place) it is not really possible to create a bass part with CHORD MATCH ON.

Method 1 is definitely the easiest way to go as you just play the actual notes you want to hear.  The disadvantage of this method is that you have to decide beforehand which key you are going to play the piece in.



Setting up a MULTIPAD so that any notes you record into it will play 'as is' back to you (ie. ignoring any chords you may be playing with your left hand as you play your song).

If this is going to be your one and only MULTIPAD, then work in the Pad1 position.  But I already have a MULTIPAD for playing the BASS in Michael Row The Boat Ashore and it's already using the Pad 1 position.  So I will load this Multipad back into MULTIPAD CREATOR and create a Pad 2.  Then I can use the same MULTIPAD and just activate Pad 1 or Pad 2 depending on which one I want to use.

When the Multipad is loaded in, I press the button next to the second Multipad slot so I can set that one up (PAD2).  This time we want REPEAT ON .. but we leave CHORD MATCH on OFF.  In this Mode, whatever notes you record will be played back at you 'as is', completely ignoring any chords you may be playing with your left hand as you play your song.



Set up the Voice you are going to use for the MULTIPAD as explained at the start of this topic (I am using LoBass and moved my SPLIT POINT to bottom C so I had the whole area of the keyboard to play bass notes in).  When you are ready to record, press the REC and the program is WAITING.



Start the METRONOME going.  Get the SYNC START flashing ready for you to play a bass note on the first beat of the bar.
These are the notes I have played.  Click the below to listen.

https://audio.com/hugh-ar/audio/michaelbassnotes

If you read music, these are the notes I played (but an octave lower than those showing on the stave).



When you have completed your recording don't forget to STOP it at the end of the bar (using the STOP showing on the screen; or the STOP by the START/STOP).  The screen now has Pad2 in that second slot (or Pad1 in that first slot if you are just doing one Miultipad).



Now SAVE what you have done .. and give the file a NAME as you would do normally (ie. hold down the DELETE to remove the Yamaha wording, and put in your own UPPER CASE / lower case letters).  Don't forget to press the OK after to confirm the Name.



I now have a MULTIPAD with two blue buttons lit up.  Pad2 can only be used when playing the piece in G; and Pad1 when playing it in any key. 



By the way, you can trigger a MULTIPAD to start at the right place by putting it in a REGISTRATION MEMORY.  To do this you press and hold down the SELECT button whilst pressing the MULTIPAD you want.  It will start 'flashing'.  You can also get the SYNC START 'flashing' by pressing it.  Anything 'flashing' will store in a REGISTRATION MEMORY and trigger the feature when the Registration Memory button is pressed.

How does all this sound?  Click the below to listen.

https://audio.com/hugh-ar/audio/michaelrowm-pad

Well, I think I prefer the MULTIPAD BASS done without the CHORD MATCH.  It sounds very 'positive'.  And I found it much easier to play the required notes.  Maybe this is because I was actually playing and hearing the correct bass notes rather than some notes that would be converted to the right ones when I played some chords.

I did have one (little?) problem though.  When I recorded the bass notes and stopped the recording at the point I considered was the right place for it to REPEAT, when I reached the end of a verse the bass pattern wouldn't start at the beginning of the next verse.  There was one whole bar of silence from the MULTIPAD before it came in again.  I overcame this problem by recording the multipad bass notes for two verses rather than one; and using the REGISTRATION MEMORIES to change the STYLE & VOICE and  trigger the MULTIPAD.

Edit (by Hugh): Images are now LINKED to a new 'cloud' storage.  Text has not been edited.

[Hugh Tyros 4]

My one (little?) problem ...

My fault!  I had pressed the STOP for the Multipad just after the first beat of the next bar.  So that's why I had a bar of silence before it came in again.  You have to STOP the Multipad a fraction before the end of the bar.  So just recording the BASS part for one verse now works fine, and the MULTIPAD comes in spot on at the start of the second verse.

Handy hints with MULTIPADS:  When recording  a Miultipad, if you don't want the Multipad to actually REPEAT (the idea of choosing REPEAT is so that it keeps in time with the Rhythm) then let it run for a couple of bars after the end of the recording before stopping it.  This will give you plenty of time to turn it OFF. If you do want it to REPEAT, then STOP the Multipad a fraction before the end of the bar just before you want it to repeat.  Remember, a MULTIPAD can be as long as a piece of string, and follows the MELODY, not the STYLE .. so doesn't repeat in 'measures' like a STYLE.  So make it run for as long as you want.

Hugh

[mikf]

Hugh, there are 4 variations on every style, most have different bass lines. You can also use the cut and paste technique in style creator to replace the bass line on any style variation. And of course you can record your own bass part into any style.  Or as you have discovered you can create a multipad. And a further method, and my own best choice, is to use the fingered on bass or AI full keyboard to drive your own bass line live.
So there are lots of ways to change/improve the bass line in a style ..... if you feel the need.
Mike

[DerekA]

I might be missing something Hugh. But what is the advantage of the multipad method, over reprogramming the style's bass part?

[BogdanH]

hi Hugh,
Thanks you for this elaborate post -I'm sure many will appreciate it (although I personally prefer video tutorials).

As Mike said, there are many ways of how we solve instrument (bass in this case) arrangements in our music. There's no best solution, because it usually depends on song we wish to play and obviously, also depends on our playing skill.
And in this particular case, I think your (bass) solution is only usable for relative slow songs -where we have enough time to handle multipads.

Speaking for me, I avoid using multipads whenever possible and definitely wouldn't use them for main instruments. The reason for that is simple: managing panel buttons while playing is very distracting (because timing is crucial). Besides that, many times we can't raise hand off keyboard (to press some panel button) because that would interrupt main melody that we're playing. Yes, we can use pedal for multipads, but pedals are usually taken for style/registration switching. Being at that, I really wish PSR keyboards would have three pedals connection.
To summarize: I only use multipads for background padding or for effect insertion.

Just sharing my thoughts,
Bogdan

[mikf]

Yes, have to say that out of the the multiple ways to improve a track on a style, Hugh's way does seem a bit of a sledgehammer to crack a nut. He has gone to lot of trouble though on the detail and that is appreciated.
Hugh may be hearing many of the recordings posted here and thinking that the the bass lines are a bit over simple and wants to educate people on how they can and should be better. But the truth is that many arranger players are at the stage in their playing where sophisticated bass lines or improving other style tracks are not at the top of their priorities. I think those that are, mostly already know ways to make it better, if they can be bothered! Not sure the multipad method would be a top choice though.
I don't think I ever used multipads when I had a PSR, and now the CVPs don't have them anyway.
Mike

[Joe H]

Multi Pads can be used to create variations not only for the bass, but for any Part in the style when using registrations by turning off a style Part and substituting it with a Multi Pad.  Easy Sounds has included many MPs with their expansion packs.  I think they got this idea from my article on Multi Pads.



Joe H

[Amwilburn]

Yes, have to say that out of the the multiple ways to improve a track on a style, Hugh's way does seem a bit of a sledgehammer to crack a nut. He has gone to lot of trouble though on the detail and that is appreciated.
Hugh may be hearing many of the recordings posted here and thinking that the the bass lines are a bit over simple and wants to educate people on how they can and should be better. But the truth is that many arranger players are at the stage in their playing where sophisticated bass lines or improving other style tracks are not at the top of their priorities. I think those that are, mostly already know ways to make it better, if they can be bothered! Not sure the multipad method would be a top choice though.
I don't think I ever used multipads when I had a PSR, and now the CVPs don't have them anyway.
Mike

This might sound like the lazy coder's way, but if there's a bassline I cannot program without Yamaha's Style Tool (which is proprietary, and not available to us) my sledgehammer solution is just learn to play the crazy bassline. But I realize not everyone can just do that :1

For example, since I can play Axel F's bass and melody simultaneously, I've never even bothered attempting to program that bassline into a style.

But Hugh is offering an alternative, which is really nice!

Mark

[Hugh Tyros 4]

As a young man I played piano in a band (dance/pop band) and as we had other instruments playing the melody (eg. trumpet, saxophone) I found myself playing 'counter melodies' to fit in with what they were playing.  On my Tyros 4 I have to play the melody, of course, and was missing hearing those little counter melodies I used to play.  So using a MULTI PAD to do this, and creating my own counter melodies, I was able to get the sound I wanted to hear on my Tyros 4.

Now, when playing in the band I was always aware of what the BASS player was playing.  More often than not he was playing notes to fit the song we were playing (ie. not just playing eg. Root and 5th all the time).  I was aware that the BASS PART in Yamaha STYLES are written in 'general' terms as they have to fit in with any song you may be playing using that STYLE. ie. the BASS PART is not geared to the song you are playing.  It then occurred to me that if I set up a REGISTRATION using a STYLE with no Bass Part, I could then do a MULTI PAD playing notes the bass player would actually play eg. sometimes 'walking up' or 'walking down' with the bass notes.  And this is what I have done.  Created that BASS PART for the bass player to play along with me for 'Michael Row The Boat Ashore'.

I used three different STYLES when playing this piece.  I seldom use just one STYLE alternating between VARIATIONS A, B, C and D.  I find that the Drum and Bass PARTS are virtually the same for each variation, so prefer to go off at a tangent and choose completely different rhythms (but ones that suit the song).  This is what the drummer would have done in the band .. particularly when moving from a VERSE to a CHORUS.

Michael Row The Boat Ashore just has the one melody (no Chorus) so I have used each STYLE to play two verses.  Each STYLE I have used is on VARIATION B.  TEMPO = 98.

1.  EasyListening, from SWING & JAZZ.
2.  BigBandFast2, from SWING & JAZZ.
3.  6-8SlowRock1, from BALLAD.

Reply to mikf:

Hugh's way does seem a bit of a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

It all depends what you want to do with your music.  If you are 'playing out' then your objective will be to perfect playing a number of songs over an evening.  And you know that no one listening will be aware of any 'bespoke Bass Part' you have put in .. or even pick up on the chords you have played.  As far as I am concerned, I have an 'Arranger Keyboard' and my objective is to play a piece that satisfies my desire to create a specific sound when playing a song.  And to this end I will sometimes take weeks working out how to get the keyboard to do what I want it to do.  This, for me, is the fun of having an 'Arranger Keyboard'.  And in this case I was not just trying to 'improve a track' on a STYLE.  I was trying to replicate those Bass notes I knew the Bass player in the band would have played.

Reply to DerekA:

What is the advantage of the multipad method, over reprogramming the style's bass part?

You can't 'program' a BASS PART into a STYLE to sound like this.  A STYLE has a fixed 'measure' (PATTERN LENGTH), after which the 'pattern' you have programmed in repeats itself.  I have done this to quite a few of my songs where I want to hear a different Bass line to the one Yamaha have given me.  This is just creating a different 'pattern' of notes, which 'repeat' and play the same each measure.  The point about a MULTI PAD is that it is endless .. and in this example I put in the Bass line I wanted to hear for the whole verse.  I have checked those three Styles I have used (by choosing them in turn, pressing DIGITAL RECORDING in MENU, then STYLE CREATOR .. where it tells you the PATTERN LENGTH).  In each case the PATTERN LENGTH is 2.  This is where the STYLE PATTERN repeats itself .. and there is no way I would get my BASS for the whole of "Michael Row The Boat Ashore" into two bars of four beats!  The first two bars of my Bass Pattern are Root, 5th; Root, 5th.  And that is what would be repeated over and over (no 'walk-ups' to the next chord).

Of course, the other advantage of using a MULTI PAD is that you don't have to 'follow the chord' and do a recording 'based on C with intervals' ie. anything you record is thrown back at you 'as is'.  So playing the BASS in G 'as is' is an easy option.  You can't do that in a STYLE as a STYLE always has to follow the chord you are playing.

Reply to BogdanH:

Managing panel buttons while playing is very distracting.

'Triggering' a MULTI PAD in the right places 'by hand' would be very distracting!  I program my MULTI PADS to trigger on the first beat of the bar by putting them into the REGISTRATION MEMORY.  I'm sure you are aware that if you set up some REGISTRATION MEMORIES you can 'trigger' the next one by pressing the next button towards the end of the bar (when you do have time to take your hand off the keys) .. and the existing STYLE will continue playing until the first beat of the next bar, when it changes the STYLE and also brings in the MUITI PAD on that first beat.  To do that you press and hold the SELECT in the MULTI PAD CONTROL and press the MULTI PAD(S) you want to include.  The MULTI PAD then 'flashes' .. and anything 'flashing' on these Yamaha keyboards can be programmed into a REGISTRATION MEMORY.

And No, you can't use a footswitch to trigger a MULTI PAD.  There are too many options for Yamaha to program one to do it (ie. do you want just ONE Multi Pad?  Which one?  Or two?  Which ones? etc.).  There is no option in the choices Yamaha give you for the foot pedals to trigger a MULTI PAD.

Reply to mikef:

And a further method is to use the fingered on bass or AI full keyboard to drive your own bass line live.

As for 'forcing a BASS NOTE' by using AI Fingering .. you couldn't play an elaborate bass line such as the one I have done by moving your little finger up the notes whilst playing a Chord at the same time!  And anyway, AI fingering doesn't work for doing this.  You mention FINGERED ON BASS, which is the FINGERING TYPE you need to 'force a bass' (by playing four notes .. and the bottom note picks up the Bass Note played).  But that doesn't work properly either. 

Take 'walking down' the bass notes. 

If you play a C chord (CEG) you get a C bass. 



Play BCEG (ie. a C chord + the B below) and you do get a B bass note.  But it's not C/B.  It's CM7/B.  In other words, it's added a B into the CHORD HARMONY. 



Then ACEG gives you Am7, not C/A.  ie. it has added the A into the chord higher up making it Am. 



Then GCEG is the right sound ie. C chord with a G bass ie. C/G.



As a pianist, I would want to hear just a C CHORD and a 'walk down' with the Bass .. C, B, A, G.

I could do that BASS PART by adding PEDALS to my keyboard.  As an organist I could do that .. but the concentration and accuracy to do that 'live' is more difficult than programming a MULTI PAD with my fingers!

And it could be done by MULTITRACKING .. but that is only useful for RECORDINGS.

Just sharing my thoughts!

Hugh

Edit (by Hugh): Images are now LINKED to a new 'cloud' storage.  Text has not been edited.

[Amwilburn]

Reply to DerekA:
You can't 'program' a BASS PART into a STYLE to sound like this.  A STYLE has a fixed 'measure' (PATTERN LENGTH), after which the 'pattern' you have programmed in repeats itself.  I have done this to quite a few of my songs where I want to hear a different Bass line to the one Yamaha have given me.  This is just creating a different 'pattern' of notes, which 'repeat' and play the same each measure.  The point about a MULTI PAD is that it is endless .. and in this example I put in the Bass line I wanted to hear for the whole verse.  I have checked those three Styles I have used (by choosing them in turn, pressing DIGITAL RECORDING in MENU, then STYLE CREATOR .. where it tells you the PATTERN LENGTH).  In each case the PATTERN LENGTH is 2.  This is where the STYLE PATTERN repeats itself .. and there is no way I would get my BASS for the whole of "Michael Row The Boat Ashore" into two bars of four beats!  The first two bars of my Bass Pattern are Root, 5th; Root, 5th.  And that is what would be repeated over and over (no 'walk-ups' to the next chord).

Of course, the other advantage of using a MULTI PAD is that you don't have to 'follow the chord' and do a recording 'based on C with intervals' ie. anything you record is thrown back at you 'as is'.  So playing the BASS in G 'as is' is an easy option.  You can't do that in a STYLE as a STYLE always has to follow the chord you are playing.


Hugh

Yup, exactly this. I get what Hugh was getting at. Take the 80's Power Rock style for example, used for Bon Jovi's "Livin' on a Prayer"; the bassline is programmed to emulate the Em(7) bassline of 1,8,5,b7,1,1,5,b7, but only while you're in a minor or minor 7 without an octaved root.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDK9QqIzhwk

So, in Livin on a prayer, the entire verse (and the entire intro as well) is played with this repeating bass riff in Em (1 8 5 b7, etc), even while the verse chords change to C and D (the entire verse is Em Em Em Em C/E, D/E, Em.

If we use Yamaha's built in style, during the C/E and D/E parts, we'll only get 8th note repeats of E, no 1 8 5 7 pattern.


Using Hugh's use of multipads, you could absolutely program a bassline locked to this pattern during the verse. Using Yamaha's built in style recognition, the only other way to do it would be leave an EM chord running the entire time on the left hand, ignoring the chord changes (which works on C/E but not as well for D/E), then play the C and D chords as harmony during that part *or* as I've said, I turn off the bassline and play it manually while playing the chords and melody... but definitely not everyone can do that.

Everyone (with a pro/semi pro Yamaha arranger ie not a PSR-E with multipads) *can* use Hugh's method.


There are *many* songs (inclduing my aforementioned Axel F) that have fixed bass or guitar riffs where the built in style recognition won't play back *exactly* what is in the original song.

Which is why I said it's great he's showing another way to achieve that. Trust me, don't shoot down seemingly off the wall ideas because they *seem* complicated; sometimes the sledgehammer is one of the only 2 solutions (the other learning to be very dexterous with both hands)

Mark

[mikf]

One of the beauties of these keyboards is that there are often multiple ways to achieve what you want.  You can move between styles, or just copy the bass line from that style into the style you use, and you can change track pattern lengths etc.
But it is also about how much trouble you are prepared to go to for 'perfection'. Your example Mark has some merit, if I am a pro playing gigs and want a pretty perfect cover. But for fun playing at home a simple two chord ditty like Michael Row the Boat, most people are simply not to going to that much trouble.
If I sit at the arranger playing at home I am likely choosing sophisticated standards. If I pick a decent style, play great chords, add some good improv and link up riffs, it is going to sound pretty good. Especially if I use a piano lead over full keyboard where I can play extended chord notes in my right as well as left, leaving my lh to add some unusual bass notes, sometimes even doubled up. Of course it could always be better, but I am not going to spend hours and hours trying get the perfect bass line track just to improve it a tiny bit. That's diminishing returns. I would much rather spend that time playing.
I didn't buy the arranger to do lots of work, I bought it to play. Sometimes you have to spend a bit of time on the system, but I don't see that as pleasure - it is a necessary evil, and I do it as little as possible. Hugh seems to have a different approach, he is prepared to put in the work to get it perfect, I am just not much into that. He worries about tiny detail like whether it's a C/B or a Cmaj7/B when in truth that lasts for less than a second and no-one could ever notice - even if it actually happens because whether it actually sounds different  in the harmony depends on how other tracks are programmed. I think probably 90% of arranger players aren't going to try to get to that level of perfection. That's why they mostly don't mess that much with editing or creating styles, or deep features.
I played in many bands, and even then, unless you go to the length of writing out every part of the arrangement, you don't control what the other players do. The bass player might be brilliant, he might just be ok. But in any case, unless he is really terrible, what people always notice is how good the lead vocalist is, so it's maybe not that important.
Mike

[Amwilburn]

You're right Mike, most people (and certainly most audience) won't notice. And you're correct; Phil Collins once said if you have good drums and vocals, you're 90% of the way there!

But sometimes we want to get something *just* right. I propose learning to play the bass manually while playing the melody and the chord; Hugh just has another option!


However, i would be remiss if I didn't mention another option as well: You *could* create a copy of  your style, unlock it, and change the bassline to ignore chord changes by changing it to NTT Root Bypass (like an intro)


Mark

[mikf]

As a drummer and vocalist Phil may be a bit biased . But he's not far wrong, depends on the genre because  I think the bass player is a huge driver in rock bands. But Michael Row the Boat.......maybe not.
Mike

[BogdanH]

hi Hugh,
Thank you again for additional clarification and I wish to emphasize that (if it sounded so) it wasn't my intention to mark your solution as useless. Btw. I didn't know that on Tyros4 Multipads can't be trigered with pedal (which is possible on recent keyboards).

Now that you mentioned for whole verse in reply to DerekA, everything about handling MP buttons becomes clear (if I understand correctly): you don't need to think about MP buttons at all -because multipad content contains whole verse (variation) bass sequence and so it only needs to be started at beginning of variation. If I'm right so far, then MP actually contains complete bass backtrack for particular variation.

On current keyboards, that (your) solution is the only one possible, to make bass sounding like a real bass player. For example, to make "walk-up" and "walk-down" -which is essential for bass.
The problem that I personally have with that solution is, I don't like using backtracks. Main reason being, there's not much space for mistakes at playing main melody (means, there's also no room for improvisations). But who knows, maybe I change my mind in future.

To me, DerekA's question is valid and my answer would be as follows:
Let's say you have a 2 bar song in Main A and this variation is repeated 12-times (then you switch to Main B). That is, total playing length (of Main A) is 24 bar. Hugh's idea is, you make a multipad (for bass) which has total length of 24 bars. In short: you can achieve the same if you make the Main A variation 24 bar long and play it only once. The benefit of Hugh's idea is, you leave variations as they are -you only need to create 24 bar bass sequence in multipad.
If I'm wrong in my thinking, feel free to correct me.

Being at walk-up and wall-down, I think I mentioned this problem a while back in this forum. What we need is something like "fill-in at chord change" in style. How to make that possible is out of topic, but it is possible... it always is.

Greetings,
Bogdan

[Ron]

You have at last removed my name and any association with me from your Topic.
Who was this aimed at?  Children?  Long winded and boring.

Delete this reply as you have done with all my others?