Need song recorded on the Genos

[myzone1958]

             I have received word that the music director at Tri County Bible Church that he would know how to operate the Genos but insist that he prefers live musicians to get involved and not mechanical things. My goal was to find the church an alternative since he lost most of his Praise and worship team since the pandemic. The Deacon texted me to tell me what his thoughts were. The one deacon said will have to pray about it and hopefully they will get some musicians again .I said that could be tomorrow or it could be 5 years from now.  The Genos would have given the church a quick fix which by the way is never late ,sick and always on time and never quits. And even if they did get some musician's They would never be able to fill the room with as many instruments as the Genos can. That is the positive side of the Arrangers over the traditional keyboard players. It is just mind boggling that he would turn the other way and not except the Genos . If I could play the keyboard I would welcome something like that with open arms. He plays the same 3 songs every week on his keyboard and then a few others on the regular piano. He is skilled no questions about it but if I was him I would learn at least 20 different songs that I could alternate through out the month. Do you know how much the church pays him per month ?  Take a guess or perhaps I should say how much would a music director be paid to work 2 hours a week at a church ?       

[mikf]

Greg, you tried, but I think the outcome was pretty predictable. I can see how enthusiastic you were about the Genos, but that is not shared by everyone.
I can play both the arranger and piano very competently, and have no bias. I enjoy playing both. As Bogdan said in one of these threads, right tool for the right job. I would choose the arranger every time to accompany a singer in a bar, or at a party, but would lean towards the traditional instruments for a church service.

Mike

[pjd]

Hi Greg --

I can relate to what you have written about the response and current situation.

Our group lost its pianist at the end of last summer. Fortunately, we were able to find another pianist in a reasonable amount of time. Our parish staff (clergy) are unwilling to pay the pianists, which makes it harder to find people...

I've played with music directors who prefer live musicians. Heck, I'll take a live trumpet over synthesized brass, for example. It is what it is -- when you got a director, you got a director. Took me a while to get to "Que Sera Sera", but it's the only way that I've kept my sanity playing for churches during the last 30 or so years. 

I don't know if you read my reply in the other thread, vis a vis, youth-oriented services. The church may be facing a larger issue than Genos. A youth-oriented service would allow for a different choice of music, too. (The older folks in the congregation may not be happy with change.)

Anyway, that's just a few further thoughts -- pj

[myzone1958]

    PJD everything you said make sense .  It is an older crowd of people that are old school I think. I don't think they like change but I blame most of the problem on the music Director. He wants live musicians which to me is wishful thinking. I thought the Genos would give them a quick fix but he does not want that so I will go to a church where a band is all ready established and then I won't have to push the Genos idea on anyone.  Mike you say you can play any keyboard so that makes you a versatile player which is good. I had to cousins who could play anything including an accordion with out a problem and like either the arranger or the traditional keys. 

[travlin-easy]

Greg, some churches seem to believe that they get better audience involvement when they have a 3 to 5-piece band on stage. This belief, obviously, has no validity, but some folks are just hard to convince. I, like many pro arranger keyboard players have battled this stupid idea for more than 3 decades, but ironically, after a short audition with each of the naysayers, I usually won out. Personally, I would not loose any sleep over this.

Good luck,

Gary

[myzone1958]

 
       Boy Gary I can understand some of the things you had to face with people in your life time about the arranger. I did suggest that the church demo an arranger but they have been closed minded about it and there is nothing I can do cause the Music Director has the last say and they believe him not me. Keep in mind this director gets paid $1500 per month to come in and play 4 songs on a Sunday for 4 weeks. I think that is high way robbery and the guy should be ashamed of him self. I was looking for a musician who I could have got to come in there and let them hear an arranger. I think it would have knocked the socks off of their feet . They just don't realize the theatrical dynamic presentation and the power behind the arranger.  That Music director is living in the stone ages. He is waiting for musicians to enter the church doors and I said to the one deacon when you think that is going to happen ? I said he been saying that for 5 years now. I said I am offering them a quick fix and he does not want it. So they believe in him not me. Goes to show you a guy can carry music degrees and still not know what he is talking about . lol   

[pjd]

Hi Greg --

I wish you the best. These situations are tough and there are always several stakeholders (and personalities).

Yikes -- pj

[mikf]

Greg - I understand your disappointment that they did not take your well meant advice, but you might be a little harsh on your MD because many serious musicians - and even many in the general public- have a poor view of arrangers. And it's not entirely fueled by ignorance. I once heard Simon Cowal, one of the most successful music producers ever, and who is hardly from the Stone Age, when presented with someone playing one on Americas Got Talent, say that he absolutely hated these machines and he never wanted to hear one played.  And he was not really alone, because it was clear most of the audience agreed, the person playing an arranger was not demonstrating exceptional talent.
Arrangers are primarily home instruments, and excellent for this, especially for people whose keyboard skills are limited. They also work well for one man band type performers, especially for those who are good vocalists.  But the truth is that you will never see an arranger at the top level of musical performance  or in a serious studio.
People on this forum are enthusiastic owners of arrangers, but that shouldn't stop us from having a realistic view of what their place is in the musical performer spectrum.
Yes, arrangers make a great, full sound. But so does a karaoke tape, or a record. And by and large, great sound is not what turns people on at a live performance. It's how well the people can play, sing etc. The audience are sub-consciously impressed because they know they could not do that. But with an arranger they suspect it's not the performer who is great, but the technology. And they think, well anyone could do that! And we can't deny that has some truth, because arrangers are mainly sold on the basis of "even you can learn to play this".
Of course, they are not always correct, because some people are brilliant on the arranger.  But that is not the big picture.

Mike

[DrakeM]

Actually the PROS are using TRACKS now at their gigs and have been for years.

The drummer is usually the one now a days that keeps everyone else in time with the tracks.

Using an arranger is more LIVE than following prerecorded tracks (IMO).   

[mikf]

Drake, that's my whole point. If sound quality was the only criteria you could just play tracks in a church. With no live musicians at all.
But it's not the only criteria. The MD wants live players, and he is not necessarily wrong. The additional players usually are congregation members, their families usually attend, so it has an element of involvement. But also it is live, real people doing their thing. People like that.
Great sound quality is not always key. Just decent sound quality along with live performers,
Mike

[myzone1958]

        Mike I understand the other side of it and of coarse live musicians is what the music director wants but I was pointing out to them that they don't have a 4 piece band and my suggestions was meant to give them something they don't have and make an improvement but they would rather wait for musician that can be involved where family members can be involved, but the fact is they don't have this at the moment and my question was to them when do they think that is going to happen ? I would  rather not sit around the camp fire waiting so I will have to remove my self from that church and go where they do have musicians with a much larger congregation that I can get involved with.   Here is a link to the place I will attend and see how it feels. If you want to just hear the music it starts at the beginning of the service and then at the end of the service. There are two women who were singing a solo together and they really sounded good.  If you look at the You Tube meter underneath where the scroll bar is it would be at the 10:00 mark. I thought they did a fantastic Job singing here                                                                          ---------->https://youtu.be/A-Kdt90-5KE

[DrakeM]

My point was the you can use an Arranger to fill in the gaps as the Pros are using them.

If you have live players they can play along with the arranger keyboardist. You can stop any part of the style when your guitar player is at church on Sunday. But if he isn't there ... you can turn the guitar track back on in the style. It's a Win - Win if the Church had an arranger keyboard and somebody that knew how to use it properly.

[mikf]

Greg, you were asking them to spend $6000 they did not really have on an instrument the MD did not want. Realistically it had little chance of success. Shame you feel forced to move on to another church, but maybe best all round.
Best wishes
Mike

[myzone1958]

          Can anyone reproduce this song on the Genos ? I would be curious to see how close one could get in reproducing this sound and arrangement. It could also be done with a brass backing instead of the guitar if one would wish to do it that way. Do we have any volunteers ?  Link -------->https://youtu.be/8Mp4vwFv0R4

[DrakeM]

Greg that song is over 7 minutes long and no sheet music available. It seems like a mighty big request.

What are you wanting to know? The Genos, PSX and PSR keyboards, all are able to produce outstanding song styles.

Drake

[pjd]

Hi --

The tune is "Here I Am to Worship" by Tim Hughes. There is a simplified lead sheet in "Spirit & Song 2" published by OCP. A few churches/groups ago, we did a less dramatic version with acoustic piano, guitar and me probably playing some kind of synth thingy.

Anyway, that is a pretty long arrangement and calls for some decent vocal chops. (Count me out on the vocals.  )

-- pj

[myzone1958]

 
   Here you go Drake maybe this would help you learn it. The only difference is your left hand would have the automatic band which I would like to hear how good this song could sound with the arranger so I am curious to hear how it will sound. Even with the left hand you could bring in Brass and do a build up and make it sound very orchestra  sounding. Perhaps you could even use Pedal Steel guitar. I would think the arranger would have the capability to hear it different ways. I hope others join in the band wagon and do their versions. You can make this song as short or long as you want. You can loop it some cause praise and worship usually loops and builds up and then volume lowers and settles down and sometimes loops again and build ups. Here is link if you want to give it a try .---------->   https://youtu.be/YEOPYAz4Q7o     Greg       

   Here is the song done with a ballad  rock drum beat ------->https://youtu.be/6CKCThJB5w0

[mikf]

It's long but not a complicated song, 6/8 I believe. The performance for me is all about the vocal harmony. The backing is very simple. You could use almost any 6/8 style to make it as simple or complicated as you like. Or you could make multi track midi accompaniment, on the arranger or otherwise. Or you could just have a simple live guitar strum and with all those vocals it would still sound just fine.
Mike

[pjd]

Here is the "Fast Eddy" version, warts and all: 

http://sandsoftwaresound.net/wp-content/uploads/2023/05/HereIAmToWorship.mp3

It uses the Power Ballad style.

-- pj

[myzone1958]

 PJ is this you playing and if so what keyboard were you using ?  Sounds good but no drum fill till the end. Any reason for no drum fills in this song  ?  I like when the  power Ballad came in . Thank You ! 

    Greg

[mikf]

Take back what I said about the song, I misinterpreted 'this song', thought it referred to the song from the church in the earlier post.
The karaoke tape is of course of a song in 4/4 and I thought PJs power ballad would work just fine. But there really is a million ways to effectively accompany this song. I would want to hear the melody line and the vocalists style and phrasing before deciding.
Would I try to reproduce the karaoke track - certainly not. If they want that then just play the karaoke. That's the point of being a musician, you do it your way.
Mike

[BogdanH]

...
Would I try to reproduce the karaoke track - certainly not. If they want that then just play the karaoke. That's the point of being a musician, you do it your way.
Mike

-a quote of the year!

Bogdan

[pjd]

Hi Greg --

Yep, that is me playing Genos. I had one or two passes with a melody in the right hand, a little too much. The clean(est) pass has just an improvised thing around the melody.

Well, maybe the "Fast Eddy" reference is kind of obscure.  I pretty much said "What can I do in 15 minutes?" I listened to the original track only to get a feel for the style and it reminded me of PowerBallad. Then 1. grab lead sheet, 2. hit record, 3. get a clean pass, and 4. convert to MP3 and upload to my site.

As to why no drum fills, I hadn't played this tune for 5+ years and spent a lot of time thinking, "Do a verse now?" I guess if I knew where I has going (!), I could have hit A, B, C, or D and added a drum fill here or there. 

I agree with Mike. I've heard this tune interpreted many different ways. I'd call the video "Christian contemporary rock" and that might not be the appropriate label.

All the best -- pj

[myzone1958]

            In Response to the Genos being used in Church. Well I have decided to return to my church so I will not be making a movie to another . The pastor had a talk with me saying the the music director felt that having an arrange with all kinds of drums and so forth would not fit into the congregation we have . Must of the church members are elderly people so I think they want to keep the music toned down. The music director has drums on the keyboard he has but does not use the. He said that he has used instrumental backings in the past but felt it just does not fit into this congregation. So I have mixed feelings about this and weather or not the older people would love to hear the sound of an arranger for Church Worship. So this is how the Music director feels and they are more less letting it up to him as how he wants to run the praise and worship music. In the future I will not voice my opinions on how they are running the church cause I have learned that I could be setting my self up for rejections and disappointment so why put my self through that. It is what it is and I more less will just be there to hear the sermons and go home. The thing I do not understand his these arrangers are loved by Senor citizens centers but perhaps in a church environment it may not be good I don't know.
       

[myzone1958]

 
           Well I decided to go back to my church and the pastor went over a few things with me saying that the music director felt the arranger would not fit in to the church group which I think manly he is due that they are an older crowd of people. Pastor said he does have drums on his keyboard but feels they should not be used in this audience . The director said that he has used drums and things on a keyboard in the past but felt it just does not fit in with this crowd. So I think he just wants to play basic keyboard arrangements and not be over powering. I will just have to get past the music part there and go for the sermons and the fellowship with the people. Perhaps if the a population of young people would start attending there perhaps the director would change his mind but for the foreseeable future but I really don't see Young people coming back since the pandemic. In senior centers I think arrangers would be excepted but for Church services I think its a different audience . But then on the other hand the do hire gospel quartets with up beat music and they do love that . So I have mixed feelings as to what they are thinking but what ever the case I will have to just over look this and let them do what they want. One thing I have learned from all of this is I will never voice my opinion ever again and stay out of the politics end of it. The pastor who is no 89 years old is having troubles with his eye sight and has stepped down from preaching cause he can not see to read and so they now replaced him  with a younger pastor . So I don't know if the younger pastor will remain ,I hope he does .I really thought he did a fantastic Job on his Sermon today . I will send a link here of the new Pastor and the music   https://www.youtube.com/live/L_gfydH7nJs?feature=share

[travlin-easy]

This is typical church music, the same music they have lived with for centuries. A piano player, who also plays the lead so the congregation can follow. My daughter goes to Mountain Christian Church, where they have a 5 piece band, including a drummer, bass guitar player, lead guitar player, rhythm guitar player and a lead singer/vocalist, who also plays an arranger keyboard, though usually just as a single instrument, piano, violin, sax, etc... They have a massive congregation, probably about 600 at each service, and when the services end, there are a half-dozen sheriffs deputies directing traffic at both entrances. 

Greg, I would not loose any sleep over this one - they're gonna do what they
re gonna do!

Gary

[myzone1958]

    Gary I laughed when you said a half a dozen sheriffs directing traffic at the church  Ha ha !!!  That sounds like the church got a nice size band going on. I know music should not be the main reason for going to church but I do believe music draws crowds and that was my motive was to draw people in to the church because they lost half the church members since covid. Pastor said today the music director wants to keep it simple and that the arranger if not fit for this kind of crowd . I think now He's looking at this church as the older crowd Seniors being there. But yet if you think about it I been to these senior centers and I have seen Elvis impersonators and it appears to me they enjoy the entertainment but I guess it thinks because it's a church it should be low key but from my research it appears to me these large bands are drawing the people in . Even down the street from me after the pandemic I see the church parking lot fill to compacity and the band they have sounds good cause I watched them on line. Someone told me they pull in $20,000 a week !  Unbelievable ! Only reason I don't go there is because some of their beliefs are not how I see it so I drive pass there and the next street up and turn right and down aways is the one I go to. My Church is small but I do like the seniors there. Maybe I tend to lean tord the small church because it feels more like family. Some of those bigger church's you can feel kind of lost in the. The one I go to now use to have 140 people but now down to 70 some.  I thought an arranger keyboard would have been ideal there but I gave up trying so I will just have to live with what they got there as far as the music goes. The pastor there now is 89 years old and has temporary stepped down cause he now has and eye disease and can not read at the pulpit any longer so Tom Baily stepped up to the plate . He is a little younger then me and I thought he did a great Job preaching. He is also a match teacher at a school. His public  speaking is excellent . Here is the link for today .                                                                                                                                         
            You can here the music director playing ----->   https://www.youtube.com/live/L_gfydH7nJs?feature=share   

[pjd]

Since we're sharing links, our live stream services are posted at:

https://easbothell.org/live

Our group does the 9AM mass. Last week we had piano, guitar, me, occasional viola and flute. Drummer and trumpet players were off, so I got to channel mariachi on the entrance hymn. 

Sorry that the videos are streamed from Facebook. Makes it difficult to skip through the video...

All the best -- pj

[keynote]

The link that PJD posted does not go to the live stream service on Facebook but rather to the church website. I looked around the site to try to find that particular service i.e., Sunday @ 9:00am but the only live stream media was older, archived videos from 2021. But I was able to get a view of the inside of the church, and it is really beautiful. And big! I imagine the sound from the worship team would really resonate and reverberate making it a piece of cake to project the music and vocals audibly with adequate volume and clarity to all those in attendance.

I wanted to post this link to another song I recently made using my Genos, Sonar Platinum, and Audacity. Everything you hear musically is Genos. Voices include Grand Piano, Mellow Finger Bass, Strings (Legacy), Warm Pad, and the Revo Vintage Open Drum Kit. I also added another clapping track from the Genos Multi-pads and also an audience cheers and applause audio track. Vocals provided by Hillsong Australia. I wanted to give the vibe of a real live concert/church performance. PS: Amazing what the Genos is capable of 5+ years on. 🎹   

God is Great

All the best, Mike 

[pjd]

The link that PJD posted does not go to the live stream service on Facebook but rather to the church website. I looked around the site to try to find that particular service i.e., Sunday @ 9:00am but the only live stream media was older, archived videos from 2021. But I was able to get a view of the inside of the church, and it is really beautiful. And big! I imagine the sound from the worship team would really resonate and reverberate making it a piece of cake to project the music and vocals audibly with adequate volume and clarity to all those in attendance.

All the best, Mike

Hi Mike --

Thanks for visiting the site and your kind words!

I'm not a big fan of Facebook and not a big fan of streaming our videos from Facebook. Not my call, as that decision is up to our audio/video team.

If you want to try again, the link should lead to a page with a scrollable list of announcements on the left hand side of the page. The videos are sprinkled through the scrollable list of messages. [The videos have a gold-ish background color.] I click on the play symbols (circular button) and don't go to the church's Facebook page. (Needless to say, I don't have a Facebook account and regard Facebook (and Twitter) as the spawn of Satan.  )  A miniature embedded video should then play.

My last parish streamed from Youtube and I much preferred that solution.

My apologies to all -- pj

Maybe try this direct link: https://www.facebook.com/easbothell/videos/630904598883961/