Re: SX700 master keyboard volume reduced automatically

[dlepera]

Hello. Just recently when using some voice combinations which I have not used in the past along with some new styles from the latest PSR STYLE #17 package, my keyboard volume while playing will just cut down to about %50 more or less on it's own. Once this happens however the  volume knob has no affect on anything that  I play afterwards regardless of what I select, new voice, new style, pad or midi. It simply disables the volume knob function.
   The only way to reset things is to power off and on my SX700 keyboard.

  I don't suspect a firmware issue as this does not happen on any of my previous 400+ regts when playing them.

  Could it be perhaps some incompatibility issue with one or more of the previous model keyboard styles, and voice combinations?

  This behavior is very strange. Just to provide one of a few samples of my combination which on my keyboard triggers this from time to time(1  in 4 times), here it is.

  1. Style is the Foxtrot from the built in keyboard style and using tempo 193 and issue kicks in at Style "C"
  2. Voices come from the forum USER VOICES/SWEET
  3. Voice 1 from the SWEET folder is Clarinet-10tt.S233.swv
  4. Voice 2 from the SWEET folder is Tenorsax-10tt.s230.swv
  5. Voice 3 from the SWEET folder is Vlarinet-10tt.S233.swv   again added for the extra clarinet sound kick
  6. EQ Pan/Volume level is set to 100 with the Main knob volume set to  3/4
  7. Mic is unplugged
  8. Keyboard is connected to a Bheringer Ultratone  K900FX amp which is turned off at the time.

       Thanks!    dom
 

[overover]

Hi Dom,

Do you have an Expression Pedal (FC7) connected? Depending on the setting (can also be changed through registrations), it could unintentionally turn down the keyboard volume.


Best regards,
Chris

[dlepera]

Hi Chris.  No pedal attached.   Thanks
        dom

[BogdanH]

hello dom,
I can't try by myself because I don't know on what style pack you refer, but I don't think issue is related to style/voice selection anyway. Question: does the same happen when you listen on headphone (main speakers to off)?

Bogdan

[dlepera]

Hello Bogdan.
   I am not using the voices from any style "pack" , these are just voices that I have grabbed from the forum
years back and suspect that they maybe Tyros voices and maybe not compatible with my keyboard.  I know that I have run into a few Tyros styles, voices and pads that simply do not play well on the SX700 so I have blown them away. However this is the first time that I have run into a volume issue.
   As for headsets, I do have Audio-Technical headsets and really have not used them much and have not had them plugged in at the time of the issue.

      Regards,  dom 

[pjd]

Hmmmm, that's interesting. Disabling the volume knob is weird.     

The SX700 volume knob is fed into an analog-to-digital converter and volume change messages are sent on the internal E-bus. E-bus is kinda, sorta like MIDI and its messages go to the tone generator.

Could there be a MIDI Master Volume message in one of the voice (VCE) files that triggers a strange bug/interaction in the tone generator?

I know this sounds far out, but disabling the volume knob? If a complete power down and restart is needed, maybe some internal signal/condition needs to be cleared?

This is all highly speculative -- pj

[Joe H]

pj,

You might have hit on something... It could be an Expression message, Master Volume or Master Attenuator.  But I don't know how any of these message would be in a .vce file.

Joe H

[Joe H]

dom,

Look and see if the Keyboard Volume is turned down when this happens. That would cause it to act the way you are describing.

Joe H

[overover]

Hi Dom,

Are you perhaps using Registrations that you did not create yourself? Please check whether "Volume" or "Keyboard Volume" is assigned to one of the two Live Control Knobs. Depending on the current, physical position of the knob in question, under certain circumstances an unintentional touch on the knob could significantly reduce the volume.


Best regards,
Chris

[dlepera]

Hello.
  Very interesting responses and while detailed and make sense some are over my head. But to answer some of your questions.
  1. The volume knob is/was at 3/4
  2. The registration is created new by me as per the specs I previously provided. The style is from the built in
       styles but the voices are from the file on my USB.
  3.  Not using any Live Control knobs in my case.  They are defaulted to Filter and Reverb. 

     I took the USB and all the info I had/needed to a nearby music store to see if I could recreate there but they only had a Genos so I tried things and did not get this issue.  It does not always happen right away.

   Was thinking doing a factory reset on the keyboard.  What are your thoughts on that? Worse case if it persists the keyboard has extended warranty and wondering if maybe they can do a complete logic diagnostics and see if they can find anything.  I would hate for anyone to take this keyboard apart if not necessary.

Thanks..

              Regards,   dom 

[dlepera]

Hello again.

I have been playing around for the past 3 hours trying all kinds of things to see if I can gather some additional information.  Here is what I have done and found since my last post.

1. No issues with volume with any of my previous Registrations. So a few that I created in the past week have reacted negatively causing the issue.
2 Chris you asked if I had the Yamaha FC7 foot pedal connected, I said no as I no not own one. So decided to go to the local music store and they were all sold out.  So decided to get what they had and that is the
MGEAR EX-P pedal with the setting set to "Other" rather than 'M-Audio'. 
3. In the Menu I could not find how I can get the foot pedal to control the master volume(style and voices at the same time). So at the moment it is assigned to "STYLE - Fade In/Out" . I did noticed that it works fine for some styles and others it does nothing with the style volume, must be something in the style that allows the foot pedal to do it's thing I guess, so considered that normal.
4. Left the Pedal at half way volume point, the volume control knob at 75% and started playing around with the styles that are potentially involved with my issue.
5. After about 30 minutes, the issue came up, volume cut and knob volume disabled so I did get low volume sound like the other times so no change so far.
6. Tried the pedal to see if that made a difference at least with the style volume and it actually gave me control of the style volume no louder than the 75% setting while the knob was still non responsive. The voices of course stayed in diminished volume state during this time.
      Not sure if this helps any or if it only thickens the plot.

                      Regards, dom

[Bill]

Hi Dom

The pedal that you have purchased is a MIDI Pedal not a restistive one that is required.

Bill

[dlepera]

Hi Bill.  I am not sure how to tell the difference nor know the effects of it if this is the case.  What  are the capabilities of the Yamaha pedal then and what does it do differently?  Should I return this one.  It seems to have some functionality with organ sounds I think?
           Thanks.                 dom

[Bill]

Hi Dom

The Yamaha expression pedal has a 1/4 inch cable connector which plugs into the Volume port at the back of the keyboard.  You can setup the keyboard to control lots of different volume parameters.  All voices, and combination of voices ie. RH 1 + others. Or you set it up to control just the styles volume.

MIDI pedals tend to be for controlling only one parameter at a time.  The FC7 pedal is expensive but built like a tank. There are other makes of resistive pedals, but you have to be careful to you get the correct Resistance otherwise the volume range will less than full.

I have not used the M-Audio pedal but you can check by looking at the cable connection. I can only go by the description which says MIDI Pedal.

I use an expression pedal all the time and find it indispensable, however having one is not going to solve your problem. You are going to have to see if there is something like Registrations that is changing things.

Bill

[dlepera]

Hi Bill.  Guess there is some interesting stuff for me to learn about pedals.  Will play around once I get over this volume issue if I can get to "root cause".  As for the cost it's only $30 Canadian more than what I just paid for this MGEAR so I might take mine back and search for the FC7.  I did see on the internet an FC8, is this better or for something else? 
             dom

[BogdanH]

From what I can see, this MGEAR EX-P is normal expression pedal (3-pole 1/4" jack connection) and description says it also work with other keyboards.
If you're in doubt, you can measure resistance on jack (should be about 50kOhm). I have Yamaha FC7 and it feels solid (=heavy), but is way overpriced, in my opinion.

Bogdan

[Bill]

Hi Dom

The FC8 is an old Piano Sustain pedal which is not suitable for your keyboard.

Following Bogdan's posted I checked another web site for the M-Audio pedal and indeed it is a resistive pedal. Why they advertise it aa a MIDI pedal I'm not sure.

Sorry for the confusion.

Bill

[dlepera]

Bill, Bogdan, so bottom line if I understand, this is fine. No need to return and look for the FC7.  Correct? 
                   Thanks     dom

[BogdanH]

hi dom,
By assuming it works on Yamaha as expected and considering the price, I would keep MGEAR. The thing is, expression pedal is very simple device and the most expensive thing inside is a potentiometer (adjustable resistor) worth $3. So the only thing that matters is build quality and if your pedal feels solid enough, I see no reason to complain.
As I mentioned, Yamaha DC7 feels very solid, nothing squeeks & wobbles, is quite heavy and has good rubber padding on bottom (so it's stays in place). Means, is nice to have, but I think price is just too high.. at the end, it's a few pieces of plastic put together.

Bogdan

[pjd]

  2. The registration is created new by me as per the specs I previously provided. The style is from the built in
       styles but the voices are from the file on my USB.

Hi Dom --

I suspect that the issue is related to the voice files. Voice files are actually Standard MIDI Files (SMF) in disguise. They don't contain notes, but they do contain MIDI messages that change voice parameters.

I view anything non-Yamaha with a degree of suspicion. Yamaha have good quality control. Content from the Web has zero quality control. Our arrangers are known to hiccup with bad MIDI files. I don't know if there are an vulnerabilities related to voice files.

Sure would be nice to see the voice files...

Hope this helps -- pj

[dlepera]

Hello Folks, thanks for your updates.

PJ, Everything that I have on my keyboard is from this Forum so I have to assume that only good stuff resides here. I am sure that whoever created those voices on what ever instrument may know them very well.
   I can't remember how I found them but they sit in the forum with Erdogans Voices, Henni Voices, Other and User Voices. Now A sub folder in User Voices is SWEET and some voices in this SWEET sub folder is what is triggering my issue.  Not sure how old these voices are but there must be something in some of them that my keyboard does not like. When I stay away from these voices all appears to be good. Mind you that I have not tested all of them but of the ones I have pulled from here some are suspect.     

So based on what you stated, the assumptions and I think I stated it previously may be keyboard incompatibilities if these voices were created on previous generation keyboards the SX700 may be tripping over some command in them intermittently.  Well this is a mystery and I will be monitoring things a little more closely now.

Note: been playing a lot of my Registrations except the recent ones triggering the issue and after 3 hours have not had the volume issue so there has to be something in these newer voices that I am using that is causing the issue. I call them newer voices as they are new to my registrations, else I suspect that some may date as far back as 2015. Speculating from what I am interpreting.
  Hope this helps to narrow things down a little more.

       Regards, dom   

[Joe H]

dom,

If you suspect this problem was created by a .vce file, you can look at it in MixMaster to see if the is a CC11 (Expression) message is imbedded in the file. This could cause the lower volume on the keyboard.  It is always good to understand the root cause of any problem.  This issue could happen to other members so it would be good to have a resolution of the issue.

Joe H 

[dlepera]

Hi Joe. I agree with you, in my 46 years of Mainframe experience, I have only had 2 issues go unresolved out of thousands of issues/problems. Root Cause is the key component to problem determination, resolution, prevention, product exploitation, product knowledge and innovation. Everything this forum is about and more.
   You are now sending me into uncharted waters.  I have no idea what this Mixmaster is. Utube indicates a PC program, and if so this will be a whole new learning journey for me. There is sooo much on this keyboard to learn let along having to use related file programs at my stage at the moment. Yem & Simplified Style Player are the only PC programs I have and use. 
   I do see a setup utube by Casper and as great and detailed as his videos are it is sad to say for me, I must be the only person on this planet that stays away from them ONLY because of my inability to appreciate/clearly process the reading of the caption, and viewing the details of the video at the same time. Captions block at times some key things in the video view and concentration is distracted or lost having to flip form caption to viewing the screen display/video so many times I miss key components.   Wooosh!!!!! embarrassed, there you have it, my internet weakness. Maybe it's age related, never had this problem in the past.
  Is there a handbook/Guide/Ref manual on this?

                    dom

[Joe H]

dom,

Below is a link to download the FREE MixMaster program.  It runs on PC platform only.  It is the KING of all Yamaha file Editors, it can view and edit almost any arranger file we have.  You might find it useful in the future.

https://psrtutorial.com/MB/EV_Files/mixmaster.html

Joe H

[pjd]

so I have to assume that only good stuff resides here.

Oh, dude, you are far too trusting!     

Mixmaster will definitely let you poke around in the voice files (and other MIDI files). I use Michael Bedesem's StyleDump program to dump the content of MIDI files. (Both voice and style files are Standard MIDI Files in disguise. You may need to change the file extension to MID in order to load an SMF into a MIDI editor or DAW.)

I agree -- these things don't happen by accident.

-- pj

[dlepera]

Hi Joe & PJ,

I have downloaded the program. Looks nice, checked out the various options and icons. I have no idea what they mean or what to do with the info after loading in one of the suspect voice. I don't see any hex value of CC11 in the list view if this is where it should reside,  then again not sure where to look for it or what all this stuff means.  However I have dropped the voice into my Drive and the link is provided if you wish to have a go at it.  You should be able to download it, else let me know.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PmfgpBmE2Hd7gx7K3Wrzm7m5ImtvfK50/view?usp=drivesdk

  dom

[Joe H]

dom,

I looked at it MixMaster and didn't see anything unusual.  So I loaded the Voice file into my S970 and it played just fine. 

Question: Is this Voice used in a registration?  Sorry if this question was asked already.  Just trying to be thorough.

Joe H

[dlepera]

Yes it is Joe as described in the first page of this thread. 

     dom

[Amwilburn]

Well, there is another possibility; as you know, the style's OTS can store data similar to a registration, including left/right voice on off, volume, but a couple of the Tyros's (Tyrii?) instead of just Right1, Right2, Right3, there was also a Keyboard volume slider (they've since gotten rid of that); the point was it was supposed to be more convenient for people who wanted to adjust the keyboard vs accompaniment volume while keeping the relative volumes of the 4 parts (incl left) the same relative to the stlye.

Which could always be achieved by simply reducing/increasing the style volume, but users demanded to be able to do it by adjusting the voice volume in 1 fader. Which I *think* had the unintended consequence of what you're now experiencing: OTS and registrations would have a phantom volume reduction because the "KBD" balance was set lower, so even if "Right1" was set to 127, if "KBD" was set to 64, all 3 RHS parts would be quieter.

I know this was on the T4, I can't remember if it was the T3 or the T5 that also had this, but any OTS/registrations from those keyboards would still carry the "KBD" volume slider, just hidden as it isn't used anymore. I don't recall a single PSR using that slider.
This affected any keyboard with the dual balance screens, as seen on Page 53 of the T4 manual

https://www.fullcompass.com/common/files/19698-Tyros4UserGuide.pdf


So I think most likely you're getting the phantom "KBD" volume reduction for the keyboard parts, which is no longer even accessible/ visible on current models. Note that it affects registrations made on these keyboards as well.

Oh and the EXP is not the same as the FC7. All plastic vs metal with rubber coating, but more importantly the rage is different. The FC7 gave me 0 to 127 as a range, the EXP gave me 0-44 (however you can change the min value so that it's 30-74, etc).

Mark

[dlepera]

Hi Mark.

The information that you provided brings us closer I think to reaching a root cause. I don't understand things to your level of the workings of the slider and how it is embedded, but if I were to analyze what you said from a logical standpoint, the symptoms seem to kind of match to the behavior of the keyboard and the fact that this/these voices are from a previous generation keyboard kind of supports what you are saying.

    Is it the real source of the problem, well maybe it is something that we may never know, but the info in this post from all you wonderful people, may be able to help others that may have had or may even have a similar experience.

  I will report any strange related anomalies should I encounter any as I walk this path.

Thanks          dom