Accompaniment - how to do it or?

[torben]

Hi friends

I would like to hear your comments on this 

When I'm out giving a concert with a singer, I'm often asked why I don't always play with both hands at the same time. It is almost suggested that I am "cheating" in some strange way.

I must admit that the question annoyed me at first but now I have learned to live with it and give an explanation.

My explanation to the curious - and perhaps a little condescending - questioner is as follows:

When you look at an orchestra accompanying a singer, it is often only the strings that play. The singer, of course, sings the melody itself and the orchestra most of the time only does the backing.  Similarly, a workarranger (a Genos, for example) in such cases often plays only with the violins - that is, only with the left hand. Only if the singer is to be supported in some way in the melody, or a solo is to be played straight ahead (e.g. by a clarinet or 1st violin), does the right hand step in. You would not want to "kill" the voice of the singer by your playing.

This is especially true when accompanying a singer in a classical piece of music - for instance like here:  https://app.box.com/s/0nzt092rtiwrscuk7jlt7tbkyjzg62ur

Therefore, the right hand is not always used (at least the whole time) when accompanying. And when it is used I often set the volume of the keyboards right hand voices quite low. 

Something comepletely different, of course, if you only play alone. But that is obvious.

Hope this makes sense, or?

Best greetings

Torben

[mikf]

Of course you can let the arranger accompaniment do the work, driven by simple lh chords only, because you have no melody to add. But I see it differently,. There might be some passages where simplicity is called for, but more generally the fact you don't have to provide rh melody, gives the opportunity to enhance the accompaniment further using both hands. You could set the keyboard for example to full keyboard mode, and a piano voice. This allows some soft piano playing to be added, still driving accompaniment and at the very least, allows playing much more complex chords, changes and passing chords, because you have ten fingers available.
Mike

[torben]

Maybe - but if you set the whole kb up as a piano you would almost totally loose the orchestra ...

Torben

[mikf]

Don't know what you mean about losing the orchestra.  It doesn't change auto accompaniment at all. That is set by the style chosen. Have you ever tried this? It works great, the accompaniment can be made to sound so much more alive and natural than the auto alone.
Mike

[DrakeM]

Hello Torben,

First off, you are doing it correctly.

Within the last few months someone told me that I should bill myself as a singer and drop the keyboard player part. It's because they can't tell when I kick in and play the right hand parts.

I have played with a 3 piece band most of my life. That would be a Bass, Drummer and Rhythm/Lead guitarist in the band. The Lead only plays signature licks and his solo in a band like that.

If you watch a 5 piece band play (with a fiddle and Peddle Steel) you will see one of the 3 doing nothing and sometime 2 of them doing nothing but plucking at their strings trying to look useful. In most cases you will not hear them even doing their plucking as it is so soft.
Here is a link to a full band (I try and learn some of their licks, I love this channel).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AsRiVxN4ho

The first song is "Crying My Eyes Out Over You". Listen to the song you can hear the Fiddle player at the start then at the choirs the Peddle Steel plays but no fiddle and you barely hear the lead/rhythm player this whole time. Then fiddle player kicks in and you don't hear the steel player. Watch the video and you see the lead and steel players moving their hands but they are so low you can't hear them.

If you want to have your right hand doing something you will just have to turn one of the parts of the style you are using off and learn to play that 4 measure lick the style is playing. I thought about doing that but I am singing and I am busy enough changing to the different parts of the style (ABCD & Break) buttons, plus turning the Harmonizer on and off. So I only play signature licks and the solo.

I have even started extending the style parts (ABCD) to 8 measures or more in order to record some of the signature licks into the style so I don't have to play them.

I love it when someone comes up and starts talking to me while I am playing. I take my hands off the keyboard and answer them. The keyboard is looping that 4 measures and everybody looks at us talking. It is then that THEY realize I am playing the keyboard and not a track I am singing along to.

Regards
Drake

[torben]

Hi Mike

sorry but I disagree. Playing with a full  keyboard like a piano and a style together sounds awful to me. Would never use it!

Regards

Torben

[torben]

Hi Drake

thanks for your great comments. Good idea to replace one of the style parts with the right hand! I must try it. 

A little funny/strange story: I once met a professional singer who insisted that I sometimes should play a prerecorded track and only simulate playing the keyboard. I threw her out ... 

Regards

Torben

[BogdanH]

This is very interesting topic!

Let's be realistic: for many, a keyboard musician is just a "button pusher"... a person, who just learned what buttons to press and keyboard does the rest. And I don't really blame those who think that way. I mean, there are so many videos, where keyboard owners proudly present what their new keyboard is capable of, just by pressing on a single button. We can also see "performance", where player is playing simple well known melody with one or two fingers, where accompaniment actually makes things happen. In short: instead presenting themself as musicians, they promote keyboard. And after people watch such videos, they make their conclusions. It's also not a secret, that some keyboard musicians use audio/midi for backing (or whole) music.. which audience (when noticed) sees as a cheating... which actually is.

As we all (keyboard owners) know, the usage of both hands when playing depends on many things. Besides our playing skill, there's the type of music we're playing. For example, country songs (most popular songs actually) require less "playing" than some classical music.
But that doesn't mean, if we play "simple" music, that one arm should hang down most of the time (used only to change chord with one finger). Means, we need to change the arrangement of music.. make it less (copy of) original.. we should make it our cover. We can do that by adapting style, so accompaniment is different (maybe even better) than original -so audience will notice it's not just a playback. The second thing we can do is, we add some our own variations (licks) while playing. That doesn't only makes our playing more authentic, it will also keep our fingers more busy.
The third thing that should convince audience about our originality (or skill, if you wish) is, if we play some piece which is more demanding. For example, if we mostly play "easy" popular music/songs (you know, Blue spanish eyes and such), then we should throw in something unexpected in between. Maybe some short (well known) classical piano or orchestral melody. We can do that when having a "short break", for example. And so, while we're "chilling" by playing that melody, we actually prove to audience not being a button pusher.

After saying all above: I'm not some skilled keyboard player -but I do know what I like when listening to keyboard performance.

Just sharing my thoughts,
Bogdan

[mikf]

Bogdan - there is a lot in what you say, but I think it's not just about what you choose to play or not. It's also about the individual's musical and keyboard limitations. While the arranger is capable of being played at quite a high level by skilled players, it's popularity is in large part due to the easy play functions which are very attractive to beginners and intermediate players.
Bottom line is that many arranger players just can't do what you are suggesting. I wouldn't use the word "cheating", but they are definitely masking their playing limitations behind the technical capability of the arranger.
Is that ok? Well the truth is we all do it to some extent as none of us are Oscar Peterson. Most of the people on this forum are home players and I think whatever they do to maximize their personal enjoyment of playing at home is admirable. It's why they bought arrangers.
But it's a different matter when you move to professional or pseudo professional public gigging. I was a fairly well respected pro player for many years, and at that level the public expects a certain minimum level of competence and musical ability. Even if they don't expect Oscar Peterson, they will start to ask questions if they think you can't really play.  And rest assured that if even just one or two are bold enough to confront you about it, there are dozens more thinking it.
The public do make allowances automatically because it's the whole package that counts, So you can get away with being a bit mediocre on keyboard or guitar if you are a brilliant singer or all round entertainer,  and vice versa. But even then, there are limits.
Mike

[torben]

The line between cheating and playing in a skilled manner is hair thin.

The more technique you master the more can you cheat. But you can also choose the hard way and stick to real playing.

I always personally try to get the best sound possible. It could come by using one or two hands. And sometimes even by using a prerecorded break. But when it comes to using long, ordinary midi songs/sequences I abstain.

And during the years I have learned to master tons of new chords. Fun and challenging.

Torben

[mikf]

The line between cheating and playing in a skilled manner is hair thin.
The more technique you master the more can you cheat. But you can also choose the hard way and stick to real playing.

I don't get this statement.
I think you are confusing technical knowledge of the keyboard and playing technique. When Bogdan refers to cheating he is talking about lacking good enough playing skill (technique) and masking it by using the technical functions of the keyboard. That's not a fine line.
I think we all like to get the best sound we can but we have to do it within our limitations. And those limitations are not the same for everyone.
Mike

[BogdanH]

Mike and Thorben,

I think we agree on what's all about. In my writing (above) I just wanted to point out few things that I think, are quite important and can determine how a keyboard musician is seen by audience. It's also true, that we are limited by our skill.. but sometimes little things can make a difference.

So, for example, after I play few songs for friends, later they might say to others:
A: "what a keyboard he bough.. is unbelievable what these things can do nowadays"
or
B: "didn't know he actually plays keyboard.. and he's not even bad at that".

And of course, there will always be some smart**s, willing to devalue our performance. But that shouldn't ruin our enjoyment.

Best wishes,
Bogdan

[DrakeM]

Well we are talking about an arranger and not a piano or an organ here.

It's great to hear classical music done on a piano, you don't use an arrange to perform that stuff.

The arranger is meant to create songs not just instrumentals as the majority of pop anything today are Vocal lyrics backed by a band arrangement. So many times I see instrumentals posted of Pop songs that are classic because of the lyrics not the music. Without the lyrics and you have never heard the song before ... it's just "ho hum".

Lounge (elevator) music is just that because there are no lyrics fronting the arrangement.

So, in short, the lyrics are more important than the playing skill. I can make you actually cry with lyrics, you can't do that with a piano or organ solo.
 

[torben]

Hi Drake

if I understand you correctly you are actually saying that the arranger should preferably be backing some lyrics  (= a singer) and should not be used on its own, as it merely creates "lounge music"?

If that is so better take cover 

Torben

[Alistair53]

does all this matter isn't it about playing and enjoying the creativity in learning and not about lacking good enough playing skill

[DerekA]

sorry but I disagree. Playing with a full  keyboard like a piano and a style together sounds awful to me. Would never use it!

When you use AI Full Keyboard, the style plays and it chooses the chord based on the notes you are playing across the whole keyboard.

It's pobably true that playing the 'full' style would be too much. But you can use channel on/off to remove parts and leave, say, just the rythym + bass parts from the style (and a cheeky pad if you fancy it). This can be quite effective.

[torben]

Alistair - for me kb playing is a constant struggle for improvement of skills. If I cannot master a playing technique I keep on trying until I hopefully succeed. Lack of sufficient skills is dreadful ... 

Torben

[Toril S]

Alistair - for me kb playing is a constant struggle for improvement of skills. If I cannot master a playing technique I keep on trying until I hopefully succeed. Lack of sufficient skills is dreadful ... 

Torben

In that case, Torben, you should absolutely try to master the full keyboard fingering mode. I have not delved much into it either, and that is because I feel most comfortable using the fingered or multi fingered mode. And I am no pianist, so doing musical artistry with my left hand is out of the question until I have had at least a hundred more piano lessons

[mikf]

does all this matter isn't it about playing and enjoying the creativity in learning and not about lacking good enough playing skill

If you are a typical home player, yes, that is all that matters. But this thread is about public performance, maybe paid public performance. And that is different, because then its all about the perception of the audience and these things do matter - a lot.
Interestingly, in many years of professional performing, I have several times heard singers comment that they particularly like the lyrics of a certain song, but never recall an audience member come to me and say that.  I believe it's the whole package that matters to the listeners. I doubt anyone would care about the lyrics if the vocalist sings flat or the band can't play.  But singers care about the lyrics, because they sing the same song over and over, and nice lyrics help them express it freshly each time.
Derek, you are correct, it can help to thin down the style if you want to play a fuller two handed accompaniment, and I often do this. But usually I find that its enough to make sure you are not duplicating an instrument between voice and style, and I also take out any little prominent riffs and phrases, as I no longer need them. I have never had the experience that Torben refers to where playing piano along with a style sounds awful. Quite the contrary, it usually sounds much better than style alone. But to be fair, I am a very experienced piano player, have accompanied vocalists thousands of times, and get that it wouldn't be true for all arranger players. So they might choose a different route.
BTW, playing two handed accompaniment doesnt have to be full keyboard piano mode. you can always add some rh to the accompaniment with an appropriate voice even if playing standard arranger method of lh chords, rh lead voice. It just makes the overall accompaniment more natural and less machine like. Don Mason, who was a great performer using vocals and an arranger did this really well. I went to his restaurant gig for an evening and really enjoyed his show. Great professional, with loads of on-stage charisma. Done basically played generic styles and added all the intros, fills etc with his playing.
Mike

[Toril S]

If you play for an audience the most important thing is that you sound good, and they like what you are playing. Most people don't care so much about how it is done. No one comes up to me and ask: Are you using MIDI files, styles, or what? They hear the music and react to it. Arranger players have been much bashed, and I think that is why we are so afraid of using some features of our keyboards. I have heard som horror stories of keyboard players "faking it", they really cannot play, but are using only backing tracks. But I believe most keyboard players are honest musicians who like to entertain. How we use our arrangers depends on our skills, needs and preferences. If people are sitting counting how many fingers we use when we play the keyboard, they are not really interested in the music, but in arguing, and they can kindly go elsewhere! Lickily I never have encountered such people

[Oxford1035]

So, in short, the lyrics are more important than the playing skill. I can make you actually cry with lyrics, you can't do that with a piano or organ solo.

If you played the piano or organ badly you'd make me cry too   

[/quote]

[Toril S]

I think the srranger is a great tool for making good instrumentals. Some on this forum perform without singing, and the audience want them back.

[torben]

And I believe - trying to come back to my original subject - that to make a good accompaniment you need to be a decent pianoplayer, an OK keyboardplayer and a skilled computer freak ... 

I would never "downgrade" to use the AI full keyboard mode ...

Torben

[BogdanH]

... that to make a good accompaniment you need to be a decent pianoplayer, an OK keyboardplayer and a skilled computer freak ... 

-you pretty much summed that 

As I mentioned before, I'm not some good player and I quite admire (and envy) those who are:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDtwxgpkOk8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNAwPJ9oEJA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-jhL4RbyWs

-when I see something like that, it always inspires me to practice more... and reminds me how bad I am 

Bogdan

[mikf]

To be a good accompanist you firstly need to be a solid musician to devise a good sounding arrangement, maybe on the fly, and then have the keyboard skills to pull it off. Of course, if you don't have all that in your locker, the arranger technology can help. But then as Torben says, you may have to be a computer geek, and be happy to devote a lot of time to style preparations and adjustment.

Downgrade to using full keyboard mode - no idea what this means. I think everyone knows it takes more keyboard skill not less to use all ten fingers across the whole keyboard rather than simple lh chords, rh melody. That's one of the reasons people choose arrangers.
BTW - I have experimented a lot with both full keyboard and AI full keyboard modes and find there is not a lot between them, except that the AI mode seems to be able to follow my inversions and extended chords better. So I would generally advise the AI mode for full keyboard playing. But the difference is small and it's a personal choice.
Mike

[travlin-easy]

I sincerely believe that you should all listen to some of Don Mason's songs and pay careful attention to what he does. He uses both hands, the left for the accompaniment while the right hand plays complementary runs to the melody. It's not at all difficult, but does require some practice.

For most songs, I primarily use the left hand chords and sing the melody. I usually add in some instrumental melody, depending on the song and the crowd response - which involves reading the audience, a skill that has nothing to do with your keyboard playing skills, but instead, your entertainment ability.

My good friend Torben has it right - he is a good entertainer, and an excellent player. He is so very fortunate to have some absolutely beautiful, very talented, female vocalist working with him, which compliment his playing ability and hold the audiences. Discovering this kind of talent is nearly impossible, and I know this first hand. I've auditioned dozens of female vocalist, and all were just plain awful.

Unfortunately, there will always be skeptics in the audience that think you are doing nothing other than Karaoke, and in some instances, lip syncing. I, like most full time musical entertainers, encountered this many times. At first, I found it insulting, but it didn't take long for me just ignore those idiots and continue to entertain the masses instead of appease one individual in an audience of more than 100 ppl.

There is one particular incident that I will never forget, though. A lady and her husband were sitting at a front row table, talking back and forth constantly as I was playing and singing. Finally, after about 30 minutes, the lady walked up on the stage and began asking questions while I was performing a song. I stopped in the middle of the song, turned to her and said "Maam, it's just not possible to play and sing while trying to hold a conversation with you." She looked down at her husband and said "Frank, it's really him playing and it's really him singing." She was quite embarrassed and I never saw them again.

Torben, keep doing what you have been doing for these many wonderful years you have provided us with some excellent entertainment. You ARE a GREAT MUSICIAN and entertainer, and there are not many individuals on this site that enjoys those attributes.

All the best,

Gary

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Tangerine Dream the electronic band  members switched to auto midi when not feeling up to it or well.