MIDI: External Controller CC#7 Setting?

[Michael Trigoboff]

On the External Controller page of the MIDI settings, it looks like I should be able to set the Genos' response to CC#7 to be any one of a number of different things. But no matter how I set it on that page, my Genos' response to CC#7 always seems to be Volume, which is not what I want.

What am I missing?

[Ed B]

Hi

Controller CC7 is under general midi specification used for volume control. Thats it!
Regards
Ed B

[Michael Trigoboff]

The screenshot on page 148 of the Genos Reference Manual shows a setting for CC#7. Under that, the manual says this:

CC#7,1,2,3,4
The MIDI device sends a control change message to Genos, and Genos determines how it responds to (or, which parameter is changed by) that control change number.
You also need to select the part to which the assigned function is applied.

That's a strong implication that you can set the Genos to respond in other ways to CC#7. I haven't yet been able to make it happen, but I suspect it's possible and I'm just missing some detail. I'm hoping someone around here can tell me that detail.

[Joe H]

Michael,

XG implementation includes AC1 and AC2 which can be assigned to serveral different parameters.  It sounds like you want to use cc07 for something other than Volume.  Is that correct?

I don't know if the arranger keyboards support the complete XG Part Parameter implementation.  It will be in the Data List book if it does.  I just checked my MU128 manual.  The AC controllers are pretty limited in what you can assign them to do.

1.2.23 Assignable controller
By assigning a control change number of 0...95 to a part,
the specified effect can be controlled.
This device allows two control change numbers (AC1 and
AC2) to be specified for each part.
The following parameters specify the effect of AC1 and AC2.
• Multi Part Parameter
1. AC1, AC2 PITCH CONTROL
2. AC1, AC2 FILTER CONTROL
3. AC1, AC2 AMPLITUDE CONTROL
4. AC1, AC2 LFO PMOD DEPTH
5. AC1, AC2 LFO FMOD DEPTH
6. AC1, AC2 LFO AMOD DEPTH
• Effect1 Parameter
7. AC1, AC2 VARIATION CONTROL DEPTH
(Valid if Variation Effect is assigned to a part as Insertion)
• Effect 2 Parameter
8. AC1, AC2 INSERTION CONTROL DEPTH
The AC1 control change number is specified by the Multi
Part or A/D Part parameter AC1 CONTROLLER
NUMBER, and the AC2 control change number is specified
by the Multi Part or A/D Part parameter AC2 CONTROLLER
NUMBER.

If you can use a different CC number, then might be easier.

Joe H

[Michael Trigoboff]

It sounds like you want to use cc07 for something other than Volume.  Is that correct?

Yes, exactly.

Why would that CC#7 setting be there if you can't use it?

[Joe H]

Yes, exactly.

Why would that CC#7 setting be there if you can't use it?

Michael,

CC07 is used for Volume by default.

You haven't explained why you want to use CC07 and for what specific purpose.  Is there another controller that can be used? What are you trying to accomplish?

Joe H

[Bill]

Hi Michael

I think you are getting a little confused because of the way the Manual tries to explain.

The manual is stating that you can adjust a number of Functions to a number of items on the KB.   They confuse things by writing  CC#7,1,2,3,4, they should have stated CC# 1-7+.

CC# 7 is the MIDI Name for Volume Setting - You cannot change a Function into another Function.

If you want another function simply use the appropriate CC# number for the function that you want.

See - http://www.jososoft.dk/yamaha/articles/midi_9.htm


Regards

Bill

[Michael Trigoboff]

You haven't explained why you want to use CC07 and for what specific purpose.  Is there another controller that can be used? What are you trying to accomplish?

I am trying to figure out how to use my Roli Rise 25 as an external controller for my Genos.

It's my current understanding that the External Controller page is the place to do that, but the page only provides 5 continuous controller numbers to use: 7, 1, 2, 3, 4. The Roli has many ways to command the sending of control change messages, including six that are especially convenient (3 faders, an XY pad, and sliding your finger along the length of a key). I was motivated to try to use CC#7 because if there are only 5 possibilities, I would just as soon not lose one of them.

I don't see a way to specify Genos behavior for any other CC#. Is there some other place in the UI to do that?

Is there an intended use case for the External Controller page that's different from what I am trying to do with it? If so, it would be really helpful to find that out so that I can use the page for its intended use instead of repeatedly hitting my head against the wrong wall.

I have an active inquiry about this currently with Yamaha tech support. I will post whatever I find out from them here.

[Michael Trigoboff]

The manual is stating that you can adjust a number of Functions to a number of items on the KB.   They confuse things by writing  CC#7,1,2,3,4, they should have stated CC# 1-7+.

The External Controller page does not allow the entry of arbitrary CC numbers as far as I know.

You can specify continuous controller actions for CC numbers 7, 1, 2, 3, 4. You can specify immediate actions to be taken by hitting particular notes on the Genos keyboard. I don't know of any other options.

[Joe H]

Michael,

If you look at the MIDI Implementation Chart  in the Data List book, you will see the Genos can send and receive almost all continuous controller numbers.  You should be able to assign a slider, knob or the sweep pedal to any of those CC numbers.  You may have to create a User MIDI Template to use with your setup. 

See my post over here:
https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,63524.msg483704.html#msg483704

Joe H

[Michael Trigoboff]

You should be able to assign a slider, knob or the sweep pedal to any of those CC numbers.

Where in the Genos user interface would I do that?

The thread you linked is about transmitting control change messages from an SX900 to an external device. This is the opposite of what I am trying to do. I am trying to send control change messages from a Roli Rise 25 to the Genos and have the Genos respond to them.

That MIDI Implementation Chart from the Data List document will be useful in determining which control change messages I can use. What it doesn't tell me is the way to set up how I would like the Genos to respond to those messages.

[pjd]

Hi folks --

Trying not to add confusion...

The External Controller page is legacy support for the old Yamaha MFC10 Foot Controller. As MFC10 users will likely attest (where's Uli when we need him!), the MFC10 had insane limitations. [Yamaha over-engineering strikes again.] So, the MFC10 could only send CC#7, 1, 2, 3, and 4.

Use of the External Controller page is purely optional and was intended as a convenience for MFC10 users.

Genos will receive and recognize the CCs specified in the MIDI Implementation chart at the end of the Data List PDF. That said, one must mind the internal routing of data from the physical MIDI ports (5-pin and/or USB) to destinations within Genos. By default, incoming MIDI data is sent to the Song parts. Sounds like Michael wants to control RIGHT1, RIGHT2, etc.

The internal routing is set through the MIDI Receive Channel Settings (page 146 of the Genos Reference Manual). If the Roli is sending through Port 1 on MIDI channel 6, then that entry needs to point to RIGHT1, RIGHT2, etc.

The CCs shown in the MIDI implementation chart are the ones for which Genos will respond. These cannot be remapped. So, if Roli pressure (or whatever) needs to control cutoff, the Roli had better send CC#74. The controller assignments shown in the MIDI message chart beginning on page 95 are more helpful in this regard.

I have never successfully used the XG Alternate Controllers mentioned by Joe. Maybe it's just my stupidity or the lack of any good examples from Yamaha.    Personally, I would forget about the External Controller page entirely.

Hope this helps -- pj

[Michael Trigoboff]

Wow! That's so easy! Thanks!

I had actually gotten the External Controller page to work for me with CC#'s 1, 2, 3, 4. It just turned out to be impossible to get CC#7 to control anything other than volume, even though there was a setting that seemed to do that.

But doing it your way, I can set the Roli to send whichever standard CC# I want to whichever MIDI channel I choose, and then just route that to the appropriate voice via the Receive page.

Came the dawn...

[Joe H]

Wow! That's so easy! Thanks!

I had actually gotten the External Controller page to work for me with CC#'s 1, 2, 3, 4. It just turned out to be impossible to get CC#7 to control anything other than volume, even though there was a setting that seemed to do that.

But doing it your way, I can set the Roli to send whichever standard CC# I want to whichever MIDI channel I choose, and then just route that to the appropriate voice via the Receive page.

Came the dawn...

The Implementation Chart shows the controllers Genos can both send and receive. Yes it is so easy.  If you want to use this function with a style then you will have to create a User MIDI Template, otherwise as I stated above if you are working with MIDI song files, then choose the Song Template and you are good to go.

It would have been easier to help you if you stated up front what you were trying to accomplish. Others cannot read your mind. The more specific the question or problem people are trying to solve, the easier and quicker will be the answer and solution to the problem..



Joe H

[Michael Trigoboff]

It would have been easier to help you if you stated up front what you were trying to accomplish. Others cannot read your mind. The more specific the question or problem people are trying to solve, the easier and quicker will be the answer and solution to the problem.

Good point. I tend to focus in very tightly on details, sometimes to my detriment. (Sometimes it works out well for me, though apparently not this time.) I will attempt to provide as much context as I can think of in the future when I have questions.

Thanks for your efforts to help me.

I did not see a MIDI template named anything like Song on my Genos. Can you point me to what you're referring to?

[Joe H]

Michael,

I don't have a Genos, but on my PSR S970 I go to FUNCTION > MIDI

There are 10 Preset MIDI Templates to choose from.  The first in the list is labeled ALL PARTS.  Further down the list is one labeled SONG. That one will allow the Genos to receive and transmit continuous controllers on Port 1. 

Maybe someone with a Genos will chime in on the MIDI Templates.

There are 10 slots to create your own User Templates, which you can create by editing any of the Preset Templates.  Once you edit a Template you can (only) save all 10 User Templates as a single file (similar to saving a registration in registration banks)

Joe H

[Joe H]

I'm hoping to purchase a Roli Rise 25 one day to use with my VL virtual wind instruments.  It is a very expressive MIDI controller.  It takes awhile to learn how to play the seaboard, and programming it to send select MIDI messages probably will take some experimenting to get it to function as you would like.

CCs that would be useful are: Breath Controller, Expression, Vibrato, Filter Cut-Off, Resonance, Pitch Bend, Variation Effect (cc94), Portamento speed.

Maybe there are other controllers I haven't thought of that would be appropriate.

Joe H

[pjd]

I did not see a MIDI template named anything like Song on my Genos. Can you point me to what you're referring to?

Correct. Genos has two master keyboard templates. S970 has one master keyboard template and one song template. The rest of the templates are the same.

On Genos, the first master template sends aftertouch, the second does not. Weird choice...

The song template assigns all incoming channels to a Song part. I believe this is the Genos factory default state.

— pj

[Joe H]

The way to determine what the MIDI settings are for the Genos 10 Preset MIDI is to press EDIT.  Michael may have to modify the ALL PARTS Template by turning on the Song Parts to receive MIDI continuous controllers.  The 2 Master keyboard settings are to transmit MIDI messages to external instruments... Michael wants to control the Genos with the Seaboard controller.  I assume you can save MIDI User Templates on the Genos like the PSRs.

Joe H

[pjd]

Hi Joe —

I understand Michael's intent. If he intends to control RIGHT1, or one of the either keyboard parts from the Roli, MIDI data needs to be sent to the desired part, i.e., one of RIGHT1 or whatever. The SONG parts are intended for external sequencing from a DAW.

Yamaha treats RIGHT1, etc. separately from SONG parts. They have their own direct path to the tone generator, for example. This always surprises people. At least Genos and S9xx allow internal re-routing. On Exx series, you're stuck and can never control keyboard parts, e.g., RIGHT1 from an external MIDI port.

I agree that CC receive must be enabled for the desired MIDI channel.

— pj

P.S. I was only trying to explain why he doesn't see a SONG MIDI template on Genos. It doesn't have one.

[Joe H]

pj,

Thanks for the clarification.  It seems a bit odd with the change on the newest keyboards... which I don't have.  I can use external control of R1 on my S970 in a very simple way, but must use a custom MIDI Template to do so.

Joe H

[pjd]

Hi Joe —

I guess Yamaha keyboards really do evolve.   

Going back to Exx series keyboards and equivalents like the Sonogenic, is really frustrating in the MIDI department. Genos and the S series are worth the extra bucks when it comes to external control (in and out). I haven't looked into the SX600, so maybe I'm giving it too much credit. 

Probably why I prefer Genos for sequencing.

Have a good weekend — pj

Just looked at the SX600 — I slandered it. It's MIDI settings are the same as the other SX models.

[Michael Trigoboff]

I'm hoping to purchase a Roli Rise 25 one day to use with my VL virtual wind instruments.

If you have any questions when you get a Roli, I might be able to help.

Roli just started making them again, but only the 49, not the 25.

[Amwilburn]

The soloing on a Roli is fantastic, whether guitars or cellos... but boy, is it *hard* to play chords on them, since the left and right edges of the 'keys' pitch up and down from the main note :p

In other words, I'm jealous of Roli owners for soloing, but for chords I'll stick with keys!

Mark

[Michael Trigoboff]

The soloing on a Roli is fantastic, whether guitars or cellos... but boy, is it *hard* to play chords on them, since the left and right edges of the 'keys' pitch up and down from the main note :p

You can use the Roli dashboard app to set "Glide" so that you don't get Pitchbend if you're a little way off the center of a key to one side or the other.

[Michael Trigoboff]

I think it's pretty diabolical of Yamaha to have a MIDI template page on the Genos named External Controller, when the actual way to control a Genos with an external MIDI controller involves avoiding any use of that page. It's as though that page was designed as a cognitive trap to prevent anyone from using an external MIDI controller with a Genos.

The trap was working quite well in my case. I'm grateful for the help I got here, which freed me from the trap.

[pjd]

Hi Michael --

I agree. Back on Tyros 5, Yamaha titled this page "MFC10 Settings". The MFC10 MIDI Foot Controller is a discontinued product. So, Yamaha renames this page "External Controller". What were they thinking? 

Glad to hear you're making progress with the Roli.

-- pj