PSR-E473 or the new Casios? Important considerations

[SciNote]

Okay, I'm a man obsessed.  I've been checking out the online manuals of all of these new keyboards -- the PSR-E473/EW425, and the Casio CTS-500 and CTS-1000V.  By the way, the manuals for the Casios are more than 300 pages long!  But to be fair, all the information that Yamaha puts in a separate data-list document is included in the main manual for the Casios.

I've come to realize some possibly important limitations concerning the Casios.  Keep in mind -- again, these manuals are BIG -- that I might have missed something, so if anyone sees that I've made an error, please let me know.

One thing is that the control panel for the Casios is almost too simplified, in that most functions are handled by the 5 soft-keys under the display.  This includes the registrations and the style control, which would each have to be called up separately.  The problem there is that, if you're playing a song and want to be able to do drum fill-ins and transitions to style variations, you can do that, but you have to have the style menu displayed.  But if you then want to switch registrations during the song, you now have to go through extra keystrokes to call up the registration menu before you can switch registrations.  This could be a bit cumbersome during live play.  The E473/EW425 have dedicated buttons for styles and registrations, as has been the case for the previous versions of the E400 series.

Beyond that, to change registration banks on the Casio, you have to turn a knob -- which could make it a little more difficult to "land on" the exact bank you want during live playing.  With the Yamaha, as before, you can just hit the bank select button, and then -- I believe -- just hit a number key for the bank.  I say "I believe" because the Yamahas now do not have a dedicated numeric keypad.  However, the voice/style category buttons can act as a numeric keypad, and when I read the manual, that seems to be the default for those buttons (for them to be numeric) unless you are selecting voices or styles.  With voices and styles, the category buttons default to the listed categories, and you have to hit "shift" "numlock" to select voices and styles numerically.

I previously mentioned in another thread that the CTS-1000V allows you to make custom voices, but as I read the manual, it seems that these voices are only related to the vocal synthesizer.  I'm still not sure exactly what they do -- they could be custom user slots for different sets of lyrics.  And to this end, yes, the Casios do have filter and envelope controls that can be accessed by the assignable knobs, in a similar way to the Yamahas.  But nothing I could find in the Casio manuals indicates that the filter and envelope settings that you dial-in can be saved to a registration!  When I looked at what CAN be saved to registrations, it mentions what the knobs are assigned to do, as well as the part they are assigned for (it does seem that the knobs can be used for more than just the upper/right side of the split keyboard, which is nice) -- but nothing about saving the actual parameter values of those knobs.

If you're looking to create custom sounds/patches in a synth-type fashion, then not being able to save the filter and envelope settings to a voice or registration is a serious limitation.  I'll really have to get my hands on one of these keyboards to see if this is the case.  On the other hand, the Casios have dozens of DSP effects, some involving filter-type sounds (like "wah" effects), that can be saved to a registration.  And there are a variety of detailed parameters of the DSP effects that can be edited.  Of particular interest is, on the rotary speaker effects, you can save the acceleration speeds from fast rotary to slow rotary -- but without there being a dedicated button for rotary speed, I'm not sure how this is used.  I might also mention that a Casio I have that I bought in 2003 has DSP with similar parameters, and again, I never understood how they are used with that keyboard, either.

Speaking of DSP, an advantage of the Yamahas is the fact that there are two separate DSP "channels" where one affects the main voice, and the other can be set to affect the entire keyboard or to any specific part, including the style and drums.  This second DSP channel that can be set to different parts of the keyboard has fewer DSP options, but this is still a nice feature.

Finally, I had mentioned that in one of the videos for the Yamahas, there is a dynamic rotary speaker speed-up or fade in effect.  I'm still not sure how that is done, but I have a theory.  With the S.Art Lite button, if you use it with a non-S.Art Lite voice, the manual says you will get modulation.  As I did not see any S.Art Lite organ voices listed, maybe the modulation for the organ voices is a rotary speaker effect, and perhaps the keyboard player was engaging this by way of a pedal set to activate S.Art Lite.  Additionally, the manual lists some organ voices in an unusual way -- something like "Jazz Organ + Fast Rotary".  They way it lists it with the plus sign, instead of just saying something like "Fast Rotary Jazz Organ" makes me thing that this is implying some sort of built in effect, and perhaps this is a part of that Leslie/rotary effect in that video.

[vbdx66]

Hi Bob,

I'd suggest going to the Casio Music Forums and go to the CT-S section. The questions you're asking yourself about the CR-S1000V will be answered by Casio users or collaborators.

I agree with you, the UI is too simple where it were too complicated on the CT-X3000/5000. Quite frankly, I'd love the internals and looks of the CT-S1000V with the front panel of the PSR E463!

As for organ tones, beware. If I understood correctly some organ stuff is exclusive to the PSR EW425, I am not sure whether the Leslie effect is concerned.

Regards,

Vinciane

[SciNote]

I went to that forum -- I believe it was the one you're talking about, as I saw you're userID there.  Not too much info in the CTS section about these new keyboards yet.  Maybe I'll have to join to post some questions!

You're correct about the EW425 having some exclusive organ sounds when compared to the E473, but so far, I've heard it's just certain qualities of the tones such as the inclusion of key-click and "leakage", and only on certain organ sounds.  I believe leakage is related to the fact that old Hammond tone-wheel organs literally had several dozen mechanical wheels that spun by electric-guitar style pick-ups.  The cut or design of the spinning wheel (similar to a gear), spinning by the pick-up, creates the tone (in a similar manner to how a vibrating electric guitar string by a pick-up in an electric guitar creates a tone).  Well, with this system, a pick-up could also get a weak signal from adjacent spinning tone wheels, in addition to the main signal for the wheel related to the note being played.  I believe these weak signals from adjacent spinning tone wheels "leaking" into the main signal is what they mean by "leakage".  But I haven't read anything about the EW425 having additional Leslie/rotary functions -- this is one of those things where we'll just have to see the keyboards in person.

Another important consideration that I forgot to mention above concerns the 6-track sequencer in the Casio.  This is quite different than the 6-track sequencer in the E400 series.  With the Casio, one track is called a "system" track, and can record everything being played on the keyboard with the two upper voices (what we call main and dual voices), the split voice, and the accompaniment.  But then the remaining 5 tracks are called "solo" tracks, and can only record the "upper-1" voice, or what we'd call the main voice.  This is important because if you create a patch made up of the combined sounds of the two upper voices, then you cannot record that complete sound to any of the 5 solo tracks, whereas on the Yamahas, the 5 melody tracks can record the main and dual voices together.

This is similar to how previous Casio sequencers have been designed -- as I recall, some of the keyboards of the CTX series have 17 tracks, but like with these new keyboards, one track is "system", but the other 16 are "solo" and can only record the upper-1 or main voice.  And even my old Casio from 2003 could only record the upper-1/main voice to most of the tracks.

Additionally, for the new CTS keyboards, I'm not seeing any real editing features for the sequencer, such as being able to record over or edit parts of existing tracks.  You can copy one track to another -- but I'm not sure if this copied track gets combined with whatever was already recorded on the destination track of the copy, or if the copied track overwrites what was at the destination.  Additionally, you can change the volume and pan of each track of a multi-track recording after recording the tracks, which is something we cannot do on our Yamaha E400-series sequencers.

The copy function is raising my curiosity.  If copying, for example, the contents of solo track 2 to solo track 1 combines the contents of the two tracks on to solo track 1, then that's a way to essentially record more tracks to a single recording (as long as you don't exceed the available polyphony) -- with the contents of tracks 2 and 1 now combined on to track 1, then you can record something new on track 2.  But if copying track 2 to track 1 simply creates a duplicate of the information of track 2 on to track 1, leaving you with two identical tracks, then I'm not sure what the purpose of that would be -- especially with no real track editing features available.

[vbdx66]

Hi Bob,

I went to that forum -- I believe it was the one you're talking about, as I saw you're userID there.  Not too much info in the CTS section about these new keyboards yet.  Maybe I'll have to join to post some questions!

By all means do. People on the Casio forum are as kind and helpful as here and if you ask some specific questions, people like Mike Martin, Brad Saucier and others are going to answer these.

But I haven't read anything about the EW425 having additional Leslie/rotary functions -- this is one of those things where we'll just have to see the keyboards in person.

According to the user manual of the E473/EW425, the Leslie effects are in the DSP1 and DSP2 effect modules and the speed is controlled via one of the Live! assignable knobs. On the Casio's there is a connector for an expression pedal, maybe this pedal can be assigned to the Leslie effect, or else the modulation knob - this is typically one of the questions you might want to ask on the Casio forum. Besides, it is quite natural that there is very few information about the CT-S1000V yet since it is brand new.

Additionally, for the new CTS keyboards, I'm not seeing any real editing features for the sequencer, such as being able to record over or edit parts of existing tracks.  You can copy one track to another -- but I'm not sure if this copied track gets combined with whatever was already recorded on the destination track of the copy, or if the copied track overwrites what was at the destination.  Additionally, you can change the volume and pan of each track of a multi-track recording after recording the tracks, which is something we cannot do on our Yamaha E400-series sequencers.

But if copying track 2 to track 1 simply creates a duplicate of the information of track 2 on to track 1, leaving you with two identical tracks, then I'm not sure what the purpose of that would be -- especially with no real track editing features available.

You can only copy one track to another and overwriting the destination track. The purpose really is to be able to copy one track from one song to another blank song if you want to try out different versions. Let's say you're quite happy with your drum track. You can copy it to a blank track then you can try out different bass lines for instance. This spares you from rewriting the whole drum track from scratch.
True, you can edit the volume and pan value for each track on the Casio's. Actually on the Yamaha's you don't need that function because you can adjust the volume and the panning of each instrument before recording. Different methods, same result.

And: one caveat of the PSR E473/EW425: I just watched the last video by Gearfacts, now the samples can be assigned to the four new pads as sound effects, but they cannot be played as tones on the whole keyboard. This is really bad. It'll probably make the « old » E463/EW410 a collector item within a few years.

Regards,

Vinciane

[pjd]

Additionally, for the new CTS keyboards, I'm not seeing any real editing features for the sequencer, such as being able to record over or edit parts of existing tracks.  You can copy one track to another -- but I'm not sure if this copied track gets combined with whatever was already recorded on the destination track of the copy, or if the copied track overwrites what was at the destination.  Additionally, you can change the volume and pan of each track of a multi-track recording after recording the tracks, which is something we cannot do on our Yamaha E400-series sequencers.

I think this is why Mike Martin (Casio) posted that the CT-X series is not dead (supplanted by the new S-series models). He regarded the CT-X series as more suitable for "one-man-band." Wish we could replace "man" in that term...

Price figures into "what compares to what." Yamaha still hasn't announced pricing although 300 Euro has appeared for the E473. That would be $340 USD -- roughly the same street price as E463. Casio Ct-X3000 is the same street price as the e463.

I'd wait for a CT-X update, then compare again. The CT-S series seems to be "for players" while the CT-X seems to be for one person band (AKA real arranger keyboards). The CT-S are missing the dedicated style control buttons which define an "arranger".

Arranger features don't mean that much to me, so I'm happy to compare instruments as to their "playing" potential minus auto-accompaniment.

-- pj

[pjd]

Scraping through the E473/EW425 manuals:

Owner's manul, page 28: "DSP1 and DSP2 settings can be memorized to and called up from Registration Memory (page 51)."

One could save slow to a registration and fast to a second registration. Then switch between registrations.

Reference Manual, page 18: "Knob A/B: DSP PARAMETER A/B With the built-in digital effects, you can apply DSP effects to the sounds of this instrument. The DSP1 effect is applied to the Main Voice, and the DSP2 effect is applied to a part selected in 'DSP2 Part' (Function 043). Each effect has two parameters which are assigned to Knobs A and B. When c is selected, you can control the DSP1 parameters with the knobs. When m is selected, you can control the DSP2 parameters. By turning the knobs in real-time, you can alter the music in various dynamic ways, such as changing the rotating speed (slow/fast) of the rotary speaker or changing the degree of distortion."

Reference Manual, page 19: "Select Voice 038, Cool!Org. Select c with the [KNOB ASSIGN] button. In the Function Display, set 'DSP1 Type' (Function 041) to '01 RotarySp.' Use Knob A to change the rotating speed of the rotary speaker while playing the keyboard.  When you move the Knob slowly, you can change the speed gradually just like a real rotary speaker. Using the Knob B applies a distortion effect to the sound.

Pedal Function cannot be assigned to rotary speed.

Data List, page 27: "Dual Rotary Speaker Bright Slow, Knob A: Speed Control, Knob B: L/H Balance."

Yamaha ported the S-/SX-series rotary speaker effect to the E473/EW425. {Nice.}  "L/H Balance" refers to the "Low/High Balance" parameter in the rotary speaker effect algorithm.

Bottom line, the only way to change rotary speaker speed is Knob A.

As to the Yamaha promotional video, I stand by my earlier comment -- it's entertainment, not a training video.  The nice fellow in the video basically was hired as an actor and who knows how they edited (matched) the picture to sound? The whole deal is a multi-media chop job. 

All the best -- pj

[SciNote]

Vinciane:

I never even thought about the possibility of copying a track from one song to another.  That would make sense.  Like you said, there, you can copy tracks to different songs and then just record different new tracks of each song to either try out different instrumentation, bass lines, melodies, chord progressions, or even just whole new songs that, say, use the same drum track.

You said we can adjust volume and pan of the tones we're recording to the sequencer on the Yamaha sequencer, but I would think that the Casios could do that, too?  I haven't really checked that.  But in any case, even with the Yamahas, it would be no really big deal to just take each track you record on a Yamaha sequencer composition and record them individually to separate tracks on a DAW like Audacity.  At that point, you can use the DAW to first line up the tracks to make sure they are all in time with each other, then adjust the volume and pan of each track there.  Not to mention equalization, compression, special effects, and whatever else is available in the DAW.

As for the sampling capabilities on the E473 versus the E463 -- I never even thought of Yamaha taking away the ability to play the samples on the keyboard.  You're right -- that's a step backward.  I saw somewhere (eBay, maybe?) where you can actually buy samples of Classic synthesizers for the E463.  I'm sure if you stray too far away from the center of the keyboard, the tone would get less and less realistic due to the envelopes being stretched out (in the lower part of the keyboard) and compressed (in the upper part).  But I bet you can get some pretty good sound in the middle 2-3 octaves.  I would think this would work with good choir, string, and brass samples, as well.

To Paul:

I know that the main Leslie effects for the Yamahas are controlled by the live-control knobs.  Of course, if the keyboard player in the video was using this feature, then we would obviously be able to see him adjusting these knobs.  One of my theories is that he's using S.Art Lite.  The manual states that, if you use the S.Art Lite button for a sound that is not a dedicated S.Art Lite sound, then you get modulation.  Maybe this modulation sounds close enough to a Leslie speaker when using the organ sounds.  And the S.Art Lite control CAN be activated by a foot pedal.

My other theory is that it could be that those sounds I mentioned, like "Jazz Organ + Fast Rotary" may simply have this effect built in as part of their envelope -- where the beginning of the sound is a slow Leslie, but if you hold the key down for a few seconds, then a fast Leslie fades in.  Because that's when you hear it -- when he's playing fast 1/8th and 1/16th notes, you don't hear it, but when he holds down notes for a longer period of time, then it fades in.

Yes, these videos may just be the result of some fancy and deceptive editing, but I would hope not.  On the UK Yamaha site, there is another video with a keyboard player playing the EW425, and this Leslie speed-up effect is there, as well -- and in some of the video clips, you can see his left hand and it is on the keyboard, not the live control knobs.  No, they're not training videos, but I would hope that Yamaha would not stoop to publishing videos that intentionally misrepresent the capabilities of the instrument.

[vbdx66]

Hi Bob,

The possibility to assign a sample to the keyboard's instead of some pads on the PSR E463 was really quite powerful. Here is a video by Gearfacts demonstrating this feature:

https://youtu.be/SbfZAHGQAbY

I really don't understand why Yamaha suppressed this function.

An absurd thought is crossing my mind: could it be possible that Yamaha and Casio are negotiating which features their respective entry level  keyboards will have or will not have? Like the Audio Out sockets appearing on the CT-S500/1000V and on the PSR E463/EW425 at the same time.

Regards,


Vinciane

[DerekA]

Each effect has two parameters which are assigned to Knobs A and B. When c is selected, you can control the DSP1 parameters with the knobs. When m is selected, you can control the DSP2 parameters. By turning the knobs in real-time, you can alter the music in various dynamic ways, such as changing the rotating speed (slow/fast) of the rotary speaker or changing the degree of distortion.

That's interesting. We can't do that on Genos. Even though the Genos data manual marks one of the effect parameters as being controllable through an "assignable controller" it doesn't seem to mean any of the actual live controls on the panel.

[pjd]

Hi Bob —

Your modulation idea might be the way it's done. On Yamaha synths, the mod wheel is usually preprogrammed to control the rotary speed for organ voices using the rotary speaker effect. On the synths, the mod wheel is assignable. The E473 software may handle the assignment "under the hood" since Yamaha likes to keep things simple in the E-series. If the pedal changes the rotary speed via articulation/mod assignment, great!

BTW, I apologize if some of my posts are pedantic. I often write replies with other folks in mind, especially if they just casually drop into a thread. 

Hope we can try one soon — pj

[casiokid]

Okay the Casio CT-S1000V has no onboard functionality to edit the styles (rhythms in Casio speak) but could editing be done using the independent ReStyle software ?  Perhaps Vinciane could comment having been involved in producing this software.

[SciNote]

Hi Bob —

Your modulation idea might be the way it's done. On Yamaha synths, the mod wheel is usually preprogrammed to control the rotary speed for organ voices using the rotary speaker effect. On the synths, the mod wheel is assignable. The E473 software may handle the assignment "under the hood" since Yamaha likes to keep things simple in the E-series. If the pedal changes the rotary speed via articulation/mod assignment, great!

BTW, I apologize if some of my posts are pedantic. I often write replies with other folks in mind, especially if they just casually drop into a thread. 

Hope we can try one soon — pj

Hey, that's fine.  No problem!

I went too a music store the other day, and of course, none of these new keyboards (Yamahas or Casios) were there yet.  But I did get my hands on a PSR-EW310, which has the S.Art Lite.  If the organ voices on that are any indication, then I don't think the speed-up Leslie was done with that feature, as I was able to get something similar, but not exactly like a Leslie effect with the S.Art Lite buttons modulation effect.  It was more of a vibrato than a Leslie speaker.  Of course, the E473/EW425 may have a more advanced implementation of this feature, but I'm now leaning toward the possibility that this Leslie effect is just built into the sound and comes on automatically when you hold down notes for more than a second or two.

I will say that I was impressed with some of the sounds of the EW310.  That S.Art Lite Gospel choir, where it can be something like "hmmmm" to "AHHHH!" is really cool, and it has a great synth brass sound -- I believe it sound number 130, if anyone sees this keyboard (again that's the EW310 -- or E373) and wants to try it.

Vinciane -- That Gearfacts video may very well be showing what I was talking about -- the ability to purchase samples for the E463/EW410 for vintage synths.  You're right, that was a cool feature.  I'm not sure if it will influence my decision on whether to purchase an E473 or not, and I never thought too much about the sampling features of the E463, but now that this subject comes up, it's almost a case of not missing something until you realize it's no longer available.

EDIT: Some additional notes about the Casio keyboards that I forgot to mention before...

Of course, the music store didn't yet have the CTS-500 or 1000V, but they did have the CT-S1, 200, 300, and 400.  Oddly, in my opinion, the key-feel of the CT-S1 and 400 was a little spongy, while the key-feel of the 200 and 300 was noticeably lighter -- almost like a PSR-E463, but with waterfall keys.  I don't know if this is by design with Casio designing these keyboards this way, or whether this is due to variations in production, or if it is due to how long these particular models have been on display.  We'll have to see if Casio makes improvements to the new CTS-500 and 1000V.

[dogendo]

Thanks for your feedback about EW310 ; by the way how is the piano tone and how does il compare with psr-e463

[pjd]

I'm anxious to get to a music store myself.

I noticed that the EW310 has only two new organ voices in common with the EW425: Jazz Organ 1 + Rotary Fast and Jazz Organ 2 + Rotary Fast. The new voices have MSB 104.

The SArt Lite voices follow the usual convention: MSB 8. I've never quite fully cracked the Yamaha code for voice numbering. MSB 104 seems to signify voices that are potentially model-specific although 104's pop up across multiple models. Arg. Maybe somebody can enlighten us! 

Yamaha have added the S-/SX-level rotary speaker DSP algorithms to the EW310 (E373), too. The EW310 manual doesn't have the same note about articulation button behavior with non-SArt Lite voices, so who knows?

I have to give Yamaha credit for the upgraded DSP effects. Well done. If someone is only interested in playing presets, the new entry level models give the MX synths competition. The MX61 streets at $770 USD and one could do quite well with an EW425 instead.

All the best to everyone -- pj

[tomsixtwo]

From my point of view, the new Casios are not typical arranger keyboards. In fact, I think Casio has deliberately kept the look / the user interface "reduced" to attract the interest of typical sound tinkerers / synth freaks as well.

As far as the accompaniment function is concerned, fundamental things are missing. For example, you can't set the levels (or at least mute) of individual accompaniment parts. It's also hard to understand why the app requires a USB cable connection to create your own lyrics (especially since a Bluetooth adapter for audio/MIDI is included). Nevertheless, I think that the new Casio is a very exciting keyboard for a broad target group, which will be a lot of fun especially if your own ambitions are not set too high.   

By the way, if you're only interested in voice synthesis, you can satisfy your experimentation urges with a free (!) VST/AU plug-in called Plogue Alter/Ego. The principle (and also the resulting sound) is quite similar: you enter a text, select a voice preset (or create your own) and play it on the keyboard.

[tekorei]

From what I have heard from youtube videos, the new Casios have better Electric Piano voices, at least for me, closer to Rhodes/Wurlitzer sounds.

The new Yamahas Electric Piano voices are closer to that DX/Venus/Galaxy 80s sound, even the ones that are intended to have a more vintage sound, like the Suitcase E. Piano voice. Maybe I still haven't found a video that shows that vintage E. Piano voice, or the voice can be "tweaked" by adding some kind of effect, like overdrive, amp, compression, eq, etc.

[pquenin]

One thing that is still lacking on the Yamaha compared to the Casios is that you can't save your edited tones. You have to use registration files for this. On the Casios you can save tones file. The news Casios also have a modulation knob, well it's not as good as a regular modulation wheel but far better than nothing. I was hoping at least a modulation button on the new E473 but nothing... The sampling is far better on the Casios, you can use a sample as a regular melodic sound (this was possible on the E463 but it has been removed on the E473). On the Casios you can also create a whole drum kit with your own samples, you are limited to 4 samples on the E473.
But the E473 have Midi+audio USB, a Mic input and an audio recorder and that's really great. This is cruelly missing on the Casios.
On the Casios, the only way to record the audio produced by the keyboard on your PC is to use an audio interface, so you can introduce a loss of quality (the digital signal is converted to an analog signal when leaving the Casio then the analog signal is converted back to digital by the audio interface before going to the PC).
I love that the Casios are lightweight and more compact but the Yamaha has a better speakers system.
For the moment, all these new keyboards are hard to find and way too expensive...
I'm tempted to buy one of them, but I will wait the E483 or Ct-S600/1100...

[SciNote]

The Casio CTS-500 and 1000V do not have the capability to create new voices.  I believe the CTX-3000 and 5000 can do this, but not these new CTS models.  Like the Yamahas, you have to save any sound edits to a registration.

The Yamahas do not have a modulation wheel, but you should be able to get similar effects with the S.Art Lite feature (as this button becomes a modulation button for voices that are not S.Art Lite-type voices), and the Motion FX button can also add a variety of sound-bending options on the fly.

The new Casios do have a drum-kit sampling option, but from what I've been able to determine, you can only sample 16 sounds, and I'm not sure how they're distributed across the keyboard.  I could be wrong -- and someone please correct me if I am -- but I did not see an option to sample 61 distinct sounds across the keyboard.

[pjd]

Kind of small plus for the CT-S models vs. E-series -- they have Casio's version of MegaVoice called "Versatile Tones."

The Versatile Tones are: Versatile Nylon Guitar, Versatile Steel Guitar, Versatile Single Coil E.Guitar, Versatile Electric Bass 1, Versatile Electric Bass 2, Versatile Brass 1, Versatile Brass 2. The User Guide has the usual caution about playing such tones on the keyboard, etc.

I don't know to what extent they are employed in the rhythms. I haven't spent much time with the rhythms...

All the best -- pj

[pquenin]

Arghhh, just see that the E473 has lost the Attack/Release control with the 2 knobs, compared with the E463 or E453...