Organ sounds severe limitation

[Rich Z]

Actually I just contacted Yamaha about this problem.  Not sure it will have any effect, though, as I guess this has been the case with the keyboard since the beginning, and apparently not enough people complained about it for them to consider addressing it. Honestly, I would be surprised if they would change it now, because they would likely think they would get just as many complaints from people who got used to it and played accordingly.

But I have to admit I would be a bit rankled if the Genos II comes out shortly and does fix this problem.

I have to listen to some of the review YouTubes to see if anyone mentioned this and I just overlooked it. Wouldn't be the first time I dozed off in the middle of a video viewing.

When I get a round tuit, I am going to crank up my Korg Kronos to check out the organ sounds on it to see if any of them have this same anomaly with the Leslie implementation.  I don't remember that being the case, but I can't say I tried even close to all of them. But just out of curiosity..... 

[StuartR]

Hello,

An update from Yamaha could probably fix this Leslie malfunction thing.

Regards

Ron

Funny you should mention that. As as owner of a YC61 which also has a poor Leslie emulation (believe it or not), fixing that emulation has been THE main subject of discussion in the Yamaha synth forum since the YC61 came out in the spring of 2020. Still nothing from Yamaha.

[Lee Batchelor]

As the originator of this subject, I appreciate everyone's input. Thank you.

I wonder if the Leslie and organ voice implementation has been put on the back burner by Yamaha in favor of the SA2 voices and Revo drums. I've heard from some that the Genos voices are even better than some of the Montage voices. Meanwhile, I would have to assume the Montage organs are stellar because Yamaha is up against Korg and Nord on the professional stage and studio. In so many ways, Yamaha treats the Genos like a living room machine, when in reality, it is VERY well suited for the professional stage.

I may have to look into buying a separate pedal like the Lester G. A while back, someone posted the correct procedure for its implementation with the Genos. At this point, it may be my only recourse. It would also be far cheaper than moving to a Genos II - whenever it arrives.

[Duffy]

I think you are being a bit dramatic, Rich.

The organ flutes voices, with the rotary DSP, provide exactly what you want and are designed for people who need a proper Leslie simulation.

The JS versions should be seen as simplified versions, with either fast or slow baked in.

I agree with Rich - Anyone who has spent much time playing Hammonds, or even other makes of organ which were hooked up to Leslie cabinets, knows that Yamaha's version of Leslie sound nothing like a real Leslie effect and the only guy who has managed to get near this sound on a Yamaha is Angelo who has written on this thread.
The quickest and easiest way to get near to the real Leslie sound is to use a Leslie simulator but this shouldn't be necessary bearing in mind the price of the Genos.
Try listening to a Hammond SKX portable organ which is not much more than half the price of a Genos and you will hear a Hammond through a Leslie speaker.

Take a listen to Omar Garcia playing a SKX and a Yamaha keyboard.
https://youtu.be/_aFdS0m-g6k
Such a brilliant setup so all we need is for Yamaha to make a module version of Genos (or even Tyros 5)
to cut down on space limitations and then we could all sound like that.
Not much chance of that happening but just as much chance that Yamaha will give us a real Leslie tremelo effect.

[Rick D.]

Duffy,

I forgot how a Leslie is supposed to sound. Omar made it sound amazing.

Thanks for sharing!

Rick D.

[DerekA]

Can I just ask, have you actually tried using the Organ Flutes + DSP version of the voices - as opposed to the JS version? And tweaking the DSP settings?

Do they do a better job of speed up / slow down ?

[Lee Batchelor]

Can I just ask, have you actually tried using the Organ Flutes + DSP version of the voices - as opposed to the JS version? And tweaking the DSP settings?
Do they do a better job of speed up / slow down ?

That's exactly what I do. I use the Organ Flutes as a basic start, modify the sliders, set the DSP to Rotary, press Details, set the Rotary parameters, and then save it as a User Voice. The JS organs are garbage, only because of their instant on, instant off Leslie. It still amazes me how Yamaha completely dropped the ball on those. The voices themselves aren't bad but they are useless because of the poor effects.

[Bill]

I agree that the basic effect (rotary) is not great, however lets remember that our Genos is an Arranger Keyboard NOT a full blown organ.

Organs of the likes of Hammond with an additional Leslie speaker are completely different beasts.

Our Genos has -:
1  a limited number of drawbars. Without the additional harmonics it is always going to sound a bit flat.
2  a Simple stereo digital amplifier not multiple valve amplifiers which produce a completely different sound.
3  quite simple digital sound chips not multiple Tone wheel generators.

I understand that you can improve the basic setup by adding in two separate DSP effects. However you are never going to replicate the very complex Doppler type of sound from a physical rotating speaker which cost roughly the same price as a new Genos.

https://www.bonnersmusic.co.uk/products/leslie-122xb-traditional-wood-40w-tube-amp

I personally don't think that even Yamaha can make any great improvements without doubling the price, so what is the point of stabbing Yamaha in the back.

Regards

Bill

[Duffy]

I've tried every combination under the sun DerekA, but still cannot get a reasonable Leslie cabinet sound at all.
i spent years playing Organs of all different makes besides Hammonds, through Leslie's so I know what it should sound like.
As Lee said, it's not the voices which are bad, it's just the Rotary effect.
Such a shame for a good keyboard to be spoiled by a simple effect.

[Rich Z]

Heck, that reminds me.  My very first keyboard I used when I decided to play in a band was a Farfisa. Let's see, that had to be back in the late '60s.  Somehow I came up with a hare brained idea to pump that through a Leslie tone cabinet.  So I talked to the repair tech at the store I bought them from and he was willing to take a stab at it. He said that would be a whole lot more interesting than the repairs he usually does. I remember sitting with him pouring over the schematics and it all seemed pretty easy with someone to explain what all those squiggles meant.  I found it all quite interesting, and quite honestly, that was the spark that got me sticking my toes into electronics.  That lead to repairing computers and then programming them.

Then came the Hammond B3, and man what a step UP that was!  But what a beast to be moving to and from gigs.

I guess what really gripes me about this Leslie snafu is that the sound provide which implies using with the song Whiter Shade of Pale is just NOT up to snuff without that Leslie function working properly. It has always been the transitions from slow to fast, and fast to slow that MADE the Leslie effect music (literally) to my ears. Heck, it even made my old Farfisa sound decent.  I guess Yamaha just put the wrong people on the project for those organ sounds, as they blew it completely.

[Duffy]

I agree that the basic effect (rotary) is not great, however lets remember that our Genos is an Arranger Keyboard NOT a full blown organ.

Organs of the likes of Hammond with an additional Leslie speaker are completely different beasts.

Our Genos has -:
1  a limited number of drawbars. Without the additional harmonics it is always going to sound a bit flat.
2  a Simple stereo digital amplifier not multiple valve amplifiers which produce a completely different sound.
3  quite simple digital sound chips not multiple Tone wheel generators.

I understand that you can improve the basic setup by adding in two separate DSP effects. However you are never going to replicate the very complex Doppler type of sound from a physical rotating speaker which cost roughly the same price as a new Genos.

https://www.bonnersmusic.co.uk/products/leslie-122xb-traditional-wood-40w-tube-amp

I personally don't think that even Yamaha can make any great improvements without doubling the price, so what is the point of stabbing Yamaha in the back.

Regards

Bill

I am not comparing the Genos to a real organ and a real Leslie cabinet.
The sound I was talking about is from a digital keyboard with no physical rotating Leslie at all.
It is done digitally on a keyboard which costs little more than half the cost of a Genos.
You can also buy a Leslie simulator box that fits in your hand for less than £200 and it digitally produces a very realistic simulation of a Leslie cabinet.
there is a cheap but good, stage piano called Studiologic Numa 2x with a very good Hammond sound and realistic Leslie and the whole thing costs around £700
It's not cost therefore which prevents Yamaha from offering us a realistic sound. It means that they either don't know what a Leslie should sound like or they don't care.
Incidentally, Yamaha organs also sound absolutely brilliant through a real Leslie cabinet. I've played 2 different models myself in pubs.
We are not back stabbing Yamaha at all. We are good customers and we buy their top of range keyboards because we are willing to pay for good sounds.
In the main, we are pleased with our purchases which reflects well on Yamaha but that doesn't mean that they can do no wrong and,
if something is not up to par, we feel entitled to say that this could do with improvement. 

[Lee Batchelor]

I personally don't think that even Yamaha can make any great improvements without doubling the price, so what is the point of stabbing Yamaha in the back.

I agree with Duffy. We're not stabbing Yamaha in the back. When Yamaha released the Genos, they bragged about their new revolution in sound, and rightly so. Somehow the organs got left behind. As Duffy mentioned, there are far cheaper keyboards with stellar B3 and Leslie sounds. Yamaha can do it. They simply choose not to, a decision probably directed by their marketing people. You'd be surprised how many things are squashed by those people.

On the other hand, unlike so many companies that totally ignore customer feedback, Yamaha will read about this. You can count on it. Will we have to wait for the next release? Probably. For Yamaha, there's no money in fixing this. Genos 1 has run its course. Other than extreme OS bugs, they're finished with the updates.

Shall we start the debate as to the Genos II release date ??!!

Edit
Here is an excellent comparison made by SoryT. To me it shows that the Genos organ drawbar voices are fine. It's the processor that is weak. He's using a Lester K in his video. I would spend the few extra coins and get the Lester G. It's a guitar pedal. The difference is, with the Lester G, you can alter the ramp up and slow down speeds of the Leslie. I have no idea why they would not have included that with the Lester K?? (The K stands for "keyboard.").

Have a listen https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FHdjg5A7wE  Thanks, SoryT!

[Rich Z]

I found the round tuit and cranked up not only my Korg Kronos but the Kurzweil PC3 in mothball status.  Both of those keyboards handled the Leslie tone cabinet emulation in stride and satisfactorily for the organ sounds.  Not all of the sounds (or programs as they call them) implemented this, as some were just not appropriate, but the greater majority do and all of the ones you would expect when they are any sort of Hammond B3 or derivative sound.

So this is not rocket science. Yamaha really has no legitimate excuse, as best I can tell. If there IS one, I sure would like to hear it. And I can't believe the Genos has been out this long and a REAL stink hasn't been raised about it.  I watched every review and comparison of sounds I could find on YouTube where the Genos was involved, and best of my recollection not a single solitary soul brought this up.  Yeah, maybe it isn't important to some people, but I'm guessing it is to some others.

No it is not stabbing Yamaha in the back at all.  It is a slap to their face.  Yamaha, you screwed this up! FIX IT, PLEASE! I could understand if this was a $300 Casio we are talking about, but no, it's a $6000 Yamaha keyboard. Supposedly their TOP OF THE LINE arranger.  Quite frankly, I expected better. Maybe if I had never had a Hammond B3 and used real Leslie tone cabinets this wouldn't be such a sensitive nerve to me.  But I did, and it is.  So would I buy a Genos 2 in order to resolve this problem? Not on your life. It is not like I am complaining about the implementation of a non keyboard instrument like a guitar or saxophone on a keyboard.  This is an ORGAN sound. One of the most popular EVER.  It don't get any more KEYBOARD than that.

In reference to the above mention about all the YouTube videos I watched, I am thinking seriously of generating my own video detailing this problem.  It just might save someone else from making the mistake I feel I did buying this flawed product. Yeah, the Genos appears to be a darn nice instrument otherwise, but that "otherwise" pill is really stuck in my throat.

For me to send it back I would also have to pack up the $900 worth of accessories I got for free based on the discount code I got from my original purchase of the Genos from Alto Music. Lordy, that would be a real pain in the butt to do.  And I would likely be footing the bill for return shipping for all that stuff too.  Damn that pill is bitter, but I'm not sure I can hack it up instead of swallowing it and just living with the aftertaste.

Well, this was my second Yamaha product after the piano I bought for my wife years ago.  Unless I see them address this issue in a satisfactory method, it will certainly be my last.

Anyway, I haven't heard anything back from Yamaha about my complaint concerning this issue.  That is usually what happens when a company has your money chooses to ignore the complaints.

Sorry to be raining on this parade.

[Ronbo]

Here's what I get out of all this. I'll just use the organ flutes provided by the Genos instead of the JS sounds. The Leslie effect works much better on the flutes anyway. At least good enough for me and practically anybody that's listening

Unless you have a b3 close by with a Leslie or two attached no one in most every case will not know the difference. Be thankful for the overall performance of your Genos

Just play it

Regards

Ron

[Lee Batchelor]

Rich, you have some legitimate concerns. I too find it amazing that Yamaha overlooked this very serious voicing issue when they got everything else near perfect. It's the first time I've needed stellar B3 sounds and since the strings, brass, E. pianos, and regular pianos sound great, I was taken aback.

We're both into $6,000+ for our respective Genos keyboards. Perhaps going a few extra bucks for a proper pedal would make us both happy. I'm going to really think about it, depending on how difficult it is to route the Lester G for controlling the B3 sounds.

[Lee Batchelor]

Good point, Ron. I need these B3 samples for a band that plays R&B from the 60s through the 80s. There's not one soul in the audience who will know the difference between the onboard Leslie and the external Lester G pedal. The point is, I will.

A fellow musician once told me that if you sound terrible on stage, you won't play well. He was 100% spot on. If I can get a more authentic sound from the Lester G, I'll play better. (That and hours of practice !)

[Ronbo]

Lee

I'm thinking you will never sound bad even if you're playing a garboon

Regards

Ron

[soryt]

To Rich , sell the Genos and go back to you're last keys , you will never know how good the Genos is in the few months you are playing it .After almost 4 years with the Genos I know Al the pro and cons of this machine and I know that it isn't perfect but it is on this moment the best (top) arranger keyboard on the market .
I have also a Nord 5D for the drawbar sounds, indeed a lot better than the Genos with the Lester K ,this is a very fine combination and if you prefer a real organ feeling and playing you have to invest in a really good Hammond clone or the real thing.
I had a lot ideas to improve the Genos ( see other posts) but for now it's the best you can get..
Just play it !

Soneg 

[Lee Batchelor]

Hi Soneg,

Would you please re-post the connection details for using a Lester G pedal for the B3 sounds on the Genos? It would be great if you include the wiring, as well as, the changes to the Genos signal routing. Many thanks!

[Duffy]

Just listened to SoryT and his Lester K. Quite impressive and quite a close impression of a Leslie cabinet without spending a fortune.
Certainly far better than the Genos on it's own.
It does look as though we must find our own paths until at least Genos 2.
My state of health might mean game over before then but at least I know that it's not just me who's nit picking at the Genos.

[pjd]

Just catching up on this thread and there are so many good comments. Too much to unpack.

Not that I want to defend Yamaha too much because I've been after them for years about better rotary speaker simulation. For the YC61, Yamaha put the right people on the job -- Toshifumi Kunimoto (Dr. K) and his people. Dr. K was responsible for VL synthesis, VCM, Neve preamp simulation and more. Modeling a rotary speaker is a little like rocket science. If the task was so easy, anybody could and would have done it by now.

The YC, Montage and MODX forums are full of whinging. So, it's not like Yamaha isn't getting or hearing the comments. Genos and other PSRs share the same B3 waveforms and rotary speaker algorithms as Montage and MODX. The Montage and MODX effect architecture does allow two insert effects per voice, so one can at least stack tube amp sim in front of rotary speaker simulation. (Without standing on your head.) Like many other voices, Montage/MODX organs are programmed and voiced differently than Genos/PSR organ voices.

YC is a whole 'nother bird and makes extensive use of modeling, not just sampling. Maybe Dr. K and company didn't get the right musician feedback during development? Who knows? They have the math and engineering chops, for sure.

As to Lester K (or G), yeah, I got one of them. It is not a panacea. On some registrations, I hear this high frequency swirling stuff that drives me nuts and I'm back to using the in-built Yamaha rotary sim. I agree with Gary -- the newer sim is not necessarily the better sim. DUAL ROT BRIGHT and DUAL ROT WARM are my go-to's.

Giving Yamaha user feedback is all well and good. We are customers, after all. I agree with Ron, tho'. It is what it is for now and let's just freaking play! 

Best to all -- pj

[soryt]

Hi Soneg,

Would you please re-post the connection details for using a Lester G pedal for the B3 sounds on the Genos? It would be great if you include the wiring, as well as, the changes to the Genos signal routing. Many thanks!

Sorry for late response, i routed the Ch 3 (Stereo) audio apart in the mixer into the Lester inputs and the outputs to the Line in of the Genos and when using the drawbars you have to use the reverb effect in place of the rotary effect ( Rotary doesn't work on separate outputs)  . I made in the Lester an extra plug to control te speed with a foot pedal , than I could adjust the knobs with the unit on top of the Genos .
This is the same if you want to use a other brand like the Neo Ventilator.
I hope this helps ,  I have sold the Lester after I bought the Nord D5 ( it sound sooo good 👍 )
Best Regards, 
Soneg 

[Lee Batchelor]

Great, thanks Soryt!

I had a Nord 5D but I traded it for my Genos. I also found that the 5D always had about 10% overdrive on the B3s. With the 4D, you could turn that off 100%. I believe a later OS update to the 5D's made it so the drive could be dialed down to 0%.

[soryt]

Maybe nice to see and to listen to a recording wich i made with the Tyros 5 and a Motion sound Pro 3T ( + smal 10"subwoofer)  , Of course with the plain Drawbars of the T5

Gives a idea how the present Rotary units come close to a real rotary speaker . not the best playing but  . . . . .   

https://youtu.be/7I8NwQLXgT8

https://youtu.be/cdw6Lw30Vt0

Soneg 

[Lee Batchelor]

Thanks, Soneg.

[emasters]

I too have been disappointed with the B3 sounds on my Tyros 5 (not Genos).  That said, using the Neo Ventilator 2 really helps the sound.  Yamaha still lacks the vibrato that one finds on a B3.  But having a convincing Leslie and distortion emulation really helps.  Not inexpensive, but well worth the investment if you use your keyboard gigging and need a better B3/Leslie sound.

https://neo-instruments.com/ventilator-2/

[Rich Z]

I too have been disappointed with the B3 sounds on my Tyros 5 (not Genos).  That said, using the Neo Ventilator 2 really helps the sound.  Yamaha still lacks the vibrato that one finds on a B3.  But having a convincing Leslie and distortion emulation really helps.  Not inexpensive, but well worth the investment if you use your keyboard gigging and need a better B3/Leslie sound.

https://neo-instruments.com/ventilator-2/

Excuse me if I am overlooking something obvious, but on an arranger keyboard playing it as such, wouldn't such a device make EVERYTHING being output through it via the audio out jacks on the Genos use the Leslie emulation?  Drums, strings, piano, guitar, etc, being played during the accompaniment? I would like to play something like Whiter Shade of Pale but I would want ONLY the B3 sound playing to provide the Leslie emulation as it should. Anything other than that would just sound weird.

[Lee Batchelor]

Excuse me if I am overlooking something obvious, but on an arranger keyboard playing it as such, wouldn't such a device make EVERYTHING being output through it via the audio out jacks on the Genos use the Leslie emulation?  Drums, strings, piano, guitar, etc, being played during the accompaniment? I would like to play something like Whiter Shade of Pale but I would want ONLY the B3 sound playing to provide the Leslie emulation as it should. Anything other than that would just sound weird.

You're right Rich, but to use an external Leslie emulator on the Right 1 voice (for example) you need to route the Right 1 voice to one of the Sub Outs of the Genos --> Separate mixer channel. The end result is a stereo mixed signal of the Genos L/R channels and the Right 1 voice panned to Center on the external mixer. There's an earlier post on how to connect the emulator so you can have it on top of your Genos and activate the unit from a pedal on the floor.

Someone else can chime in on this if there is an even better way to do this. Thanks.

[overover]

@Rich Z
Hi Rich,

A small addition to Lee's remarks:

If the external Leslie emulation device has a MONO input, you only use ONE sub out. If it has a STEREO input, you can use TWO sub outs of the Genos (Tyros5 / SX900). (The signal is then automatically output in STEREO.)

You can connect the (stereo) outputs of the Leslie emulation to an external mixer. Of course, the Main outputs of the keyboard, via which all other parts are played, must also be connected to the mixer.

Alternatively, you could connect the stereo outputs of the Leslie emulation back to the Genos via the AUX inputs. Then all parts would be output together at the Main outputs (or via the Genos speakers).


Best regards,
Chris

[emasters]

Another option I use sometimes performing, is route the MIDI out of Voice 3 (using MIDI setup), to an external iPad running the IK Multimedia B-3X App on my iPad.  Then as Chris suggests, route the iPad audio out back into the keyboard, via the Aux In (stereo), so the keyboard master out includes both the arranger voices and the B3 audio from the iPad.  By turning on/off Voice 3, I control the external organ sound, and can control the volume using the Aux In volume slider.  This actually works really well and the IK Hammond sound is very good.  I also have an older Native Instruments B4D drawbar controller that I also route via MIDI, into the iPad -- and can thus control the B3-X drawbars in real-time, via this controller.  A bit more work to configure and route wires, but the result really is very good.