Genos 2

[mikf]

Chris - I have a CVP and normally use full keyboard setting, so not perfect, but yes, that would be a possible workaround. But I think my suggestion would be an overall improvement that others could like. And I can't see any downside because there are hardly any circumstances where people need to drive chord changes while an intro is playing. In fact even touching the keyboard by accident while the intro is playing can screw it up. So would be nice if Yamaha could implement my suggestion in the future. But unlikely.
Mike

[Amwilburn]

Simple cboku, - I don't like not playing, ie just sitting while the keyboard plays for me. So I don't normally use intros, I just play my own. But some iconic intros need more than you can do in live playing, like multiple instrument parts, tempo changes etc. In these cases a pre prepared canned intro is great, it can be made to sound just like the original recording  - but then you can't play while it plays.
I would like the intro to act more like a hybrid midi, you trigger it with a chord in the correct key, then it plays and transitions to the main variation like any intro now, BUT while it is playing you can play along without it being altered by your playing. Endings ditto.
Mike

Completely agree, that's why when I create styles I usually make the intros and endings all 1 chord (so that it can then track my changes). Or no acmp at all for the intros, just drums.

Chris is right, for the built in styles, I usually just set the left to trigger using AI fingered, low split point so you can play above without changing the original chord sequence's starting point (you don't actually need to make a 2nd left split point between the right and the acmp, you can just trigger the sequence with your left hand in the AI fingered part, and then play along using the right hand).

It's cumbersome, yes. There really should be an option/ future implementation where the intros and endings play the built in chord progression if the player doesn't change the chord, but if it detects chord changes, it should then snap to those chords, rather than continuing the original chord progression.

*that* is a change I'd like on future Yamahas; or at least a button that selects Intros/Endings as chord tracking or not.

Mark

[jwyvern]

Quote
"*that* is a change I'd like on future Yamahas; or at least a button that selects Intros/Endings as chord tracking or not."
Do we know what it is that is different in the makeup of intros that causes them to behave differently from Main Variations? Just as an example is it possible there is a special setting in the CASM for this (perhaps which has not been discussed up to now )
John

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

I must admit that I do have a very dry skin and am allergic to Sun UVA UVB and every plant you can mention. My keyboard has been my salvation as it keeps my busy when you are all enjoying yourselves in the sun.

Do not worry Eileen , i am 70 now and have dry skin, and a couple of scoriasis patches, on skin, but still like the sun which is good for that condition.
I plaster myself with E45 and for people with scoriasis, Farmology pink gapefruit moistureizer it is best for that condition believe it or not. BOOTs stock it and it has controlled the beastly condition around ears.Now almost gone. Found this out from a great tip in a newspaper column. Just call me FLAKEY!! "Get the bus out Butler"!     (B)lakey.

Anyone who thinks i am mad, it is because i am English!! and i cannot change my medical condition!!

All the Best
John

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Mike,
An INTRO in which both hands need to be played can be made. Listen to one example, in the first part you will hear INTRO without changing the chord, and in the second part you will hear how it really sounds.

https://youtu.be/YJckfpXZpf0

Hi chokbu
I just play the Intro unless it is a special one, then i put the candles on and a bottle of Dr Good!! God knows what i would do for an Outro!!
Answer-- Dress up as Batman and jump off the wardrobe!!

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

PUT YER HANDS UP IF YOUR HAPPY!!

[ckobu]

Hi chokbu
I just play the Intro unless it is a special one, then i put the candles on and a bottle of Dr Good!! God knows what i would do for an Outro!!
Answer-- Dress up as Batman and jump off the wardrobe!!

Batman is OK but I prefer ladies in bikinis. 

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Batman is OK but I prefer ladies in bikinis. 

Exactly, what do you think is waiting for me on the bed, Wonderwoman!!
Well, we can all dream .!!
This is only supposed to be light humour!!, but we are in the final of the Euruopen Cup! !!

[mikf]

Well its actually the final of the European Championship - I think the European Cup is a defunct tournament about 20 years ago. And I don't want to burst your bubble but  I imagine the majority of people on this forum haven't heard or care about either of these tournaments! However, I confess I will be watching,
Mike

[pjd]

Quote
"*that* is a change I'd like on future Yamahas; or at least a button that selects Intros/Endings as chord tracking or not."
Do we know what it is that is different in the makeup of intros that causes them to behave differently from Main Variations? Just as an example is it possible there is a special setting in the CASM for this (perhaps which has not been discussed up to now )
John

Hi John --

Actually. how intros and endings work is well-understood (at least to style creation nerds.  )

The CASM data determine how transposition rules are applied to each style section. Typically, CASM data for intros and endings are set such that the arranger follows only the root note, i.e., the player chooses the basic "key" and the arranger does the rest. This capability allows for elaborate intros and endings with built-in chord progressions. In main and fill-in sections, the CASM data typically applies a single chord scale to the entire main or fill-in section and the arranger applies both root note transposition and chord shape/scale.

DJ styles, by the way, use intro/ending-like CASM data for all sections. That's why DJ styles follow only the root note and the chord progressions are "baked into" the style.

The proposed feature would make CASM responsive to a front panel button (or whatever). I'm sure Yamaha would like to avoid actually changing the CASM format as that would be a major, major break with the past, possibly requiring an SFF3. That thought must give the developers shudders.

Hope this info helps -- pj

[Lee Batchelor]

PJ, where are the CASM settings stored. They were easily visible on the Tyros 5. Where are they on the Genos?

[Amwilburn]

The proposed feature would make CASM responsive to a front panel button (or whatever). I'm sure Yamaha would like to avoid actually changing the CASM format as that would be a major, major break with the past, possibly requiring an SFF3. That thought must give the developers shudders.

Hope this info helps -- pj

Not necessarily; I wasn't proposing to create a new way to program chord progressions into a style; I was suggesting a toggle on a future (or even current touchscreen board) that would simply ignore the chord progression data of intros & endings of the existing styles; essentially turning everything into CM7 and allowing free play of your own chord progressions.


Essentially a toggle on a kb rather than running styles through something like "midi to style", as it were, (which flattens all chord progressions)

Yet another style format would give me shudders as well!

Mark

[pjd]

Hi Mark --

I think we're on the same wavelength. I was just leaving open the possibility that something might need to change in the CASM data. Sorry for the confusion.

Just switching out of the Intro to a target section might be enough. Kind of like an early bail out of the Intro instead of waiting for the full Intro to complete.

Thanks for you ideas -- pj

[pjd]

PJ, where are the CASM settings stored. They were easily visible on the Tyros 5. Where are they on the Genos?

Hi Lee --

The CASM settings are stored in the style file itself as the settings are (usually) very style-specific. CASM settings can be changed via Style Creator. On Genos, Style Creator has a screen button labelled "SFF Edit." Real intuitive -- not. 

The NTR/NTT for Intro and Ending sections is normally set to Root Transpose / Bypass for the bass, chord1, chord2, pad, phrase1 and phrase2 parts. (Rhythm parts are totally different and are almost always Root Fixed / Bypass. Don't touch 'em.)

So, after choosing Intro 3, change NTR/NTT to either Root Transpose / Melody or Root Transpose / Chord for each style part (bass, chord1, chord2, pad, phrase1, phrase2). Then save the style and see what happens.

Yeah, it's tedious. I just tried this with "SkyPop" Intro 3 and got a fairly musical result! Yet another interesting way to mangle music. 

All the best -- pj

[jwyvern]

Hi pjd, thanks for your response to my questions on what makes the intros/ outros
"different"

John

[pjd]

Aaaay, John, no problem.

As Steely Dan once sang: "The things that pass for knowledge I can't understand." 

-- pj

[pedro_pedroc]

Hi, Mike.

I agree with you.
Most of the styles I've created, you need to change the chords along playing the intros and endings... You can check my youtube channel to check (http://www.youtube.com/pedromseleuterio ), most of my custom styles you need to change the chords... For me, automatic intros are artificial, and looks like you're playing with a midi file.

But, it's only my opinion, I respect everyone.

Regards from Brazil,
Pedro

Eileen, it seems that you and Yamaha arrangers are just made for each other!
On a slightly more serious note - one thing I never see on 'wish' lists that I believe would be a great improvement, would be the ability to play along with intros and endings - with both hands. I know some novice players might be very happy let the keyboard do the work, but more experienced players don't like just sitting there looking. The intro and endings currently respond to chord changes so you cannot play along with it without possibly screwing it up. What it needs is programmed so the initial chord triggers the key of the intro, but any subsequent playing does not. This is especially important when you have the keyboard set to full keyboard mode where even rh playing can affect the chord changes.
Mike

[ckobu]

Hi Lee --

The CASM settings are stored in the style file itself as the settings are (usually) very style-specific. CASM settings can be changed via Style Creator. On Genos, Style Creator has a screen button labelled "SFF Edit." Real intuitive -- not. 

The NTR/NTT for Intro and Ending sections is normally set to Root Transpose / Bypass for the bass, chord1, chord2, pad, phrase1 and phrase2 parts. (Rhythm parts are totally different and are almost always Root Fixed / Bypass. Don't touch 'em.)

So, after choosing Intro 3, change NTR/NTT to either Root Transpose / Melody or Root Transpose / Chord for each style part (bass, chord1, chord2, pad, phrase1, phrase2). Then save the style and see what happens.

Yeah, it's tedious. I just tried this with "SkyPop" Intro 3 and got a fairly musical result! Yet another interesting way to mangle music. 

All the best -- pj

I tried in these 4 videos to explain the SFF (CASM) settings found in Style Creator. I agree, it's tiring. 

**********
01. SFF Edit - Source Root/Chord
https://youtu.be/vLGLjvfRJ2s

02. SFF Edit - NTT/NTR [Root Trans, Root Fixed]
https://youtu.be/Gh0-keHru3A

03. SFF Edit - NTT/NTR [Guitar Rule]
https://youtu.be/bJ8Sip05_24

04. SFF Edit - RTR [Hight Key - Note Limit]
https://youtu.be/LnYs0n88g3E
********

Many more features can be found in software MagicStyle YA. And it's clearer to work with.

[Lee Batchelor]

Thanks for clarifying the CASM stuff guys!

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Well its actually the final of the European Championship - I think the European Cup is a defunct tournament about 20 years ago. And I don't want to burst your bubble but  I imagine the majority of people on this forum haven't heard or care about either of these tournaments! However, I confess I will be watching,
Mike

What about Rounders . English term for Baseball or Netball a Greek term for Bastetball!! . "Ill get done for saying that"!! "oh no, I have dug another deep hole"!!

With my half pennies worth, i do think it is easier just to play your own Intros and endings  and make and Intro and ending if they are more involved and you want more realism.
It really is just practice
I thought i could not play Stevie wonders Sir Duke, but determination and practice i got it all in a week. The middle and ending parts are the difficult bits. or the jazzy bits!!
Mr Blue Sky is a difficult arrangement to play, but go for a section at a time and you get there, but you do need multi pads for that especially the old fire hydrant sound and you need just a little vocoding.
I do believe the more you practice the less you rely on Intros and endings.
I do understand if some have difficulties as none of us are 100%. We all have little problems and Intos and endings can be a big help.

[mikf]

Some people are a bit obsessed with making exact copies of original recordings, they want the intro to be note for note, they even want to capture the voices in the arrangement as exact as they can. If that's  what they like to do, more power to them. But I found that in many years of playing this is hardly ever necessary. Mostly I would play my own intro. There are a few iconic intros people like to hear, like John Lennon's Imagine, but I never worried too much about being exact. The truth is that hardly anyone has enough of a musical memory to remember it note for note anyway, so close is usually good enough. The other thing is that we don't have the same vocalist, or backing singers, or maybe no singers at all. So why try to do an exact copy of an intro or arrangement. If they want exact, they could just play the original recording and forget about live music.
Mike

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi
Chokbu's videos are 100%

All the best
John

[Siegfried]

Only today I came to read this part of the forum.

I also appreciate Eileen very much and her helpfulness.

Therefore, a piece of advice from me for her, even if it is not part of the topic.
We all appreciate playing very much, I can also spend hours on it without going outdoors.

But: Our body needs vitamin D, which is formed under sun exposure from cholesterol under the skin. This should then be supplied. Please not in  high doses but better daily  max  to 1000. This is also the  single  dietary supplement that I would like to recommend to a healthy person.
We still need you for the next 30 years eileen.

[Lee Batchelor]

Some people are a bit obsessed with making exact copies of original recordings, they want the intro to be note for note, they even want to capture the voices in the arrangement as exact as they can. If that's  what they like to do, more power to them. But I found that in many years of playing this is hardly ever necessary. Mostly I would play my own intro. There are a few iconic intros people like to hear, like John Lennon's Imagine, but I never worried too much about being exact. The truth is that hardly anyone has enough of a musical memory to remember it note for note anyway, so close is usually good enough. The other thing is that we don't have the same vocalist, or backing singers, or maybe no singers at all. So why try to do an exact copy of an intro or arrangement. If they want exact, they could just play the original recording and forget about live music.
Mike

Well put, Mike.

I believe there are two basic approaches to playing other peoples' music: tribute or cover. With a tribute, you're playing the song note for note, exact same dynamics, same key, and so on. With a cover approach, you're putting your own twist on a song, which gives you a lot more latitude.

However, in some songs, there are signature parts that define the song and if one wanders too far off that path, the song loses its appeal. A good example is the bass line from I Saw Her Standing There (Beatles). McCartney wrote that line as a divorce from all the typical schlock bass lines of the day - root and 5, and walking bass. To this day that bass line challenges even the best bass players. Fortunately, that situation is rare. Most of the time we can put our own spin on a song and enjoy it just as much.

The only time I alter a style is when those special formats like the bass line in I Saw Her Standing There must be altered to give the song an authentic feel. Okay, everyone back to their Genos' for one hour of scales !

[Lee Batchelor]

Only today I came to read this part of the forum.

I also appreciate Eileen very much and her helpfulness.

Therefore, a piece of advice from me for her, even if it is not part of the topic.
We all appreciate playing very much, I can also spend hours on it without going outdoors.

But: Our body needs vitamin D, which is formed under sun exposure from cholesterol under the skin. This should then be supplied. Please not in  high doses but better daily  max  to 1000. This is also the  single  dietary supplement that I would like to recommend to a healthy person.
We still need you for the next 30 years eileen.

Agreed. Eileen has been a pillar of knowledge, strength, and impartiality for us all. She knows her stuff and calls it the way it needs to be called. When she writes, it's important, so we should listen.
Keep popping those Vitamin Ds, Eileen!!

[Toril S]

Lee, be kind! One hour of scales?😀😀😀

[Lee Batchelor]

Yes, that does seem like a lot, Toril! How about 60 seconds instead of 60 minutes ?

[Toril S]

Much better😀😀😀

[EileenL]

Hello Siegfried,
  Perhaps I did not make it clear but I can not go out in the Sun and have special film on my windows so I do not burn through the glass. I take vitamin D in tablet form from my doctor. Just a few minutes in the Sun and my skin starts to itch and swell.
  It is something I have had to learn to live with.