Need help about Auto Acompaniment or "single key chord" feature, sort of

[indiana.joe]

Hi to all,
(sorry if this msg is posted in the wrong section: couldn't find how to select the threads)

Can someone here let me know which models of PSR can allow:
- change of voice on auto accompaniment?
- ability to switch off (or drop volume) of the rythm (drumkit) part of the auto accompaniment?
- ability to switch off (or drop volume) of the bass line part of the auto accompaniment?

To make things clear, the only thing I want is to trigger 1 chord by pushing 1 key (or 2, according to the chord I want M, m, 7th or else).
I want no Drumkit nor Bass, just the chords, and of course I must be able to select the voice I want for these chords.

Any clue, someone?
I've tried many PSRs: there's always something wrong... I'm quite desperate, searching since 1 month now...

Thanks a lot for any help!

[overover]

Hi indiana.joe,

you can do all the desired things on all PSR-S or PSR-SX models (and of course on Tyros models and Genos), but NOT on PSR-E or PSR-EW models.


Best regards,
Chris

[mikf]

I assume you mean current models of PSR. You go into the mixer, select style and you will see every style part and can individually alter the volume, or change the voice.
But I am also a bit puzzled about what you are trying to do. When you say you only want the chord, you will not necessarily get a chord. What the style plays is accompaniment, and that varies depending on the style arrangement. Drums and bass are key parts of accompaniment. There isn't necessarily a clear chord or pad sound. there might just be individual style parts.  For example a jazz accompaniment might be almost only be bass drums and bass. Switch off drums and bass and there isn't much left.
Mike

[DerekA]

The PSR-E4xx models can switch off accompaniment parts (no voice change, no volume change) but if you want proper flexibility, you need a PSR-S (even the older models can do this if budget is an issue)

If you just want a pad sound, pick a style with a solid pad if that's the only part you want to hear

Bit of a waste of the style engine though!

[Argento]

At least on my PSR-EW410 (i suppose all models on the same line are pretty the same) , you can't change the voice of the auto-aconpainment, you cant change the volume of the individual instruments of the rythm, but , you can turn them off , one by one, using the buttons for that purpose, on the buttons track control zone .

[indiana.joe]

Thanks a lot Argento, DerekA, mlkf, and overover.

By reading you I guess I need to provide more explanations on why the heck do I need to kill 80% of the style part...
OK, here it is: I play bass in a jazz band, we used to have a keyboard player but he's gone and we can't find any replacement.
So... my idea is to keep on playing bass with the hands (I need both hands, unfortunately!) and to use my feet to play some chords.
Since I'm not a chimp, I can't play fingered chords with my feet... that's why I just want to trigger them by pushing on a pedal board (organ pedalboard style).
As we already have a drumkit in the band, I want to kill the automatic drums of the style.
Same same for the bass, because I'm the bassist.
Simple chords are all we need... and of course, changing the sound of the chords on each tune is important.

Yes I've tried many current PSR models without success. Most of them don't allow to change the voice.
I will try a PSR S or a PSR X model.
Thanks again, mates, and if you have a better idea on how to make it, please let me know !!

[Georgeandmarj]

Could you do it on registrations.

[overover]

Thanks for your detailed feedback, indiana.joe!

The easiest way to save all changes (e.g. Part Volumes, Voices, muted Parts, etc.) is to use Registrations. Use one Registration Bank per song and save each Registration Bank file (containing up to 8 individual Registrations) with the name of the song.

So it is not necessary to change the Style (and save it again), but you can save everything in Registrations (and of course call them up again very quickly later).


P.S.
I recommend that you buy a keyboard that is as up-to-date as possible, e.g. PSR-SX900/700 or PSR-S975/775. Please note that the pre-S970/770 models (i.e. S950/750, S910/710, S900/700) are not compatible with the current Expansion Pack technology ("YEM"). There are also major differences in the size of the available Expansion Memory (in which the Wave samples of the Expansion Voices are stored) between the various models.

It should also be noted that the S900/700 are NOT yet compatible with the current Style file format "SFF GE" (= "SFF2").


Best regards,
Chris

[indiana.joe]

Hi overover,
I don't understand "Please note that the pre-S970/770 models (i.e. S950/750, S910/710, S900/700) are not compatible with the current Expansion Pack technology ("YEM")"
Does it mean that a PSR S710 (model I am about to purchase) will not do the trick? or does it mean that I will get what I want, but I might not be able to save my settings?
I don't get the YEM thing...

[SciNote]

I'm not seeing anyone address the request to play chords with one key -- or pedal -- yet.  I am guessing that, with a good MIDI pedal board, it would be possible to trigger the lower part of the keyboard through MIDI, so that if the auto-accompaniment is switched on, the pedal board would play the notes in the auto-accompaniment part of the keyboard and trigger the "easy play/single finger" chords.  But the bugger here is that, by only triggering a single note, you will only get major chords with the easy play feature.

I know that, at least on my PSR-E433 (and the other PSR-E400 series), hitting a single note in the auto-accompaniment zone, with auto-accompaniment switched on, will trigger a major chord for that note.  For example, hit a C, then get a C major chord.  Getting minor, 7th, and minor 7th chords requires hitting two or three notes clustered together at the same time -- which would go back to your chimp analogy  !

I am unaware of the possibility to reprogram the auto-accompaniment to allow single notes to play a different type of chord, even on the higher end keyboards -- but maybe I'm wrong?  If so, please let me know.

And anyway, in a jazz band, aren't you playing music with much more complex harmonies, such as 9th, 11th, 13th, m7b5, major 7th, major 9th, chords -- as well as chords with various alterations, such as 7b9, 11#9, etc?  I don't think even a Genos can be programmed to generate those chords with a single note in auto accompaniment, but again -- someone please let me know if I'm wrong.  You'd almost have to just record yourself playing the background of the song you want to play first, manually playing the complex chords, using the keyboard's sequencer, and then play that sequence back and play along with it.  Of course, if you make a mistake while playing, you have to remember that the sequence will just keep on playing.

[DrakeM]

I play using the "simple finger mode" and you can play C, C7, Cm, Cm7 with 3 fingers needed for the Cm7. I am able to play any country or pop song easily.

Won't need the Drum machine with a PSR 950,970,975 or SX900, PRS 750, 770,775 or SX700 keyboards.

What you will want to do is to delete everything from each style you DON'T want there to be heard. Then save the style as CUSTOM style to a USB stick and give it the name of the song, simple.

You will then be able to control the drummer and making him do drum rolls. You will have control over the keyboard VOICE (piano, guitar, organ rhythm patterns). You will have to LEARN to play your bass part with ONE hand. It just will take some practice on your part.   

I control the whole band and play the LEAD with one hand and sing, so you see you can easily learn to play the bass as well.

Here is a link to my cover of the song "Moon Dance", you may know.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_ye0vrC0Xw

If I can make all this music, you can turn OFF any part of the style that you want a member of your band to play live.

I have more songs post there are YOU TUBE for more examples if you want to see what you can do with the "simple Chord method".

By the way, you only need to learn you BASS pattern in the key of C as you can TRANSPOSE the keyboard into any key you need. That ought to speed up you ability to play ONE handed on the keyboard as well.

Regards
Drake

[overover]

Hi overover,
I don't understand "Please note that the pre-S970/770 models (i.e. S950/750, S910/710, S900/700) are not compatible with the current Expansion Pack technology ("YEM")"
Does it mean that a PSR S710 (model I am about to purchase) will not do the trick? or does it mean that I will get what I want, but I might not be able to save my settings?
I don't get the YEM thing...

Hi indiana.joe,

an S710 is the smallest model that will "do the trick". (And, as mentioned before, it is already compatible to the current Style format SFF2.) But I recommend to buy at least an S910. This series was introduced in 2009, and probably a 910 is currently not much more expensive than a 710.

The YEM technology (Yamaha Expansion Manager), which was introduced with the Tyros5/PSR-S970/770, was only referred to above as a "precaution". If you don't need any additional Voices ("Expansion Voices"), you can of course also work with an S910 or S710. But keep also in mind that the Preset Voices, Effects and Styles have been significantly improved with each new PSR-S/SX series.


Best regards,
Chris

[DerekA]

Hi overover,
I don't understand "Please note that the pre-S970/770 models (i.e. S950/750, S910/710, S900/700) are not compatible with the current Expansion Pack technology ("YEM")"
Does it mean that a PSR S710 (model I am about to purchase) will not do the trick? or does it mean that I will get what I want, but I might not be able to save my settings?
I don't get the YEM thing...

Don't worry. YEM is a flexible way of loading new samples into the keyboard - the S710 can't do this, it can only use an older technology which has a very limited set of additional samples that can be loaded. So if you're happy with the inbuilt voices, the S710 should do what you want.

You'll want to look up the 'Chord Detect' page on the MIDI setup menu, described in the reference manual.

[overover]

... YEM is a flexible way of loading new samples into the keyboard - the S710 can't do this, it can only use an older technology which has a very limited set of additional samples that can be loaded. So if you're happy with the inbuilt voices, the S710 should do what you want. ...

Hi Derek,

just a small correction at this point: The S910/710 series cannot use any Expansion Voices. The S950/750 series works with the ".yep" Expansion technology (only one Pack at a time), but it is no longer supported by Yamaha.


Best regards,
Chris


@indiana.joe
As other members said before, with the "Single Finger" fingering type you can only play (generate) Major, Minor, Dominant 7th and Minor 7th chords (e.g. C, Cm, C7, Cm7). I have attached a picture where you can see how to play these chords the one, two or three keys.

So you cannot play "jazzy" chords like Major7 etc. with these fingering type.

By the way: I recommend to set the fingering type to "Multi Finger". This way you can use the "Single Finger" technique (e.g. using a MIDI Pedal), and alternatively, you can also finger chords normally, i.e. with 3, 4 or 5 fingers (on the keyboard of the instrument) to play more "jazzy" chords.


Another way would be to record the accompaniment as a MIDI file ("Song") and then playing live with it. But if you don't have at least some Drums and/or a Bass track, it will probably not be easy to play along with this "mini-arrangement" live.


Best regards,
Chris


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[mikf]

As I mentioned in my earlier reply, I think everyone is glossing over the fact that styles may not play actual chords unless you program it that way and they would be very basic.
For my money. I really doubt this can work well, even if you program the style to play chords as many have pointed out you will not be able to play decent chords, certainty not close to what a half decent keyboard player would play. And you would find it hard to stay in time. It would be more likely to work the other way round, ie play the keyboard and let the Keyboard provide the bass.
Mike

[SciNote]

As I understand it, indiana.joe is an actual bass player, as in a bass guitar, in a jazz band.  And what it appears he wants to do is to play his real bass guitar with his hands, and then use his feet to control a pedal board which would be MIDI'ed to an arranger keyboard to activate "single finger" chords on the arranger.  And also as I understand it, he wants to do this and not have any drums or bass with the arranger's accompaniment because he is playing the real bass, and his band has a real drummer -- so he just wants to use the arranger to play backing keyboard sounds because the band's keyboard player left the band and they have not been able to find a replacement keyboard player.

If this is the case, then as I and others here have previously said, this set-up would be less than ideal, because hitting a single pedal, to activate a single key by MIDI on the auto-accompaniment of the arranger, would only play a major chord.  You'd need two feet to play a minor or a 7th chord, and a volunteer would have to come in with a third foot to play a minor 7th chord.  And of course, this would not allow for playing any of the more complex chords commonly found in jazz music.

To me, all that comes to mind is using the arranger's built-in sequencer to pre-record the backing keyboard accompaniment for each song, and then indiana.joe and the drummer would just play along to these background recordings of each song.  In this case, the arranger's sequencer could be used with an auto-accompaniment, which would allow for a fingered mode to be used while recording (since this keyboard part would be recorded separately, it could be done with hands and no pedal board would be needed), and fingered mode would allow for many of the more complex jazz chords.  Or, auto accompaniment would not even be needed, depending on the keyboard skills of indiana.joe or the drummer, as they could just simply play the accompaniment directly into the sequencer just as if playing the keyboard live during the song.  Then, they would just play along with this sequencer recording of the keyboard accompaniment.

While recording such a background, or "mini-arrangement" (as noted above), you might want to use the rhythm/drums so you keep time while recording, then turn the drum track off during playback when you're actually playing along with the recording.  But of course, playing along to such a "rigid" pre-recorded accompaniment and chord progression like that means that the background just keeps progressing through the song if you make a mistake, and it does not allow much room for improvising any chord or structure changes during a song.  Tempo changes would also be difficult, if not impossible.  And you would need to make sure the keyboard parts being recorded and played back had a strong rhythmic quality to them, because indiana.joe and the drummer would have to play along and follow the beat of the pre-recorded sequence on the keyboard, and if there were any slower, pad-type sustained chord parts, it could be difficult to track the timing of the keyboard during those parts, unless the keyboard has a clearly visible "beat counter" flashing light.

[mikf]

Reading this again, I am wondering if Joe might misunderstand how the arrangers works. He might be thinking that the arranger accompaniment plays lh chords based on single finger input in single finger mode - but this does not happen.  If you play a single note then what the lh voice plays is that single note - no matter what fingering mode you are in.   If you want a lh chord you have to activate a lh voice and play that chord fully. 
What the auto accompaniment plays is the programmed style parts, based on the chord you input. In single finger mode it interprets the chord from single finger input, but it does not actually play any chord - unless there are chords programmed in one of the style parts. And that is not always how the style is programmed. If you want keyboard chords in the accompaniment you have to find (or program) a suitable style that actually has a keyboard style part playing chords, - and there may be less styles like this than you imagine -  then move up the volume of that individual style part while lowering the volume on all the other parts. And even if you do this those chords will always be basic and repetitive.
TBH this seems to me like an off the wall idea that will never work.
Find another keyboard player is the answer!
Mike

[DerekA]

I get what you're saying Mike; I agree it's a sledgehammer to crack a nut and the results may not be great.

But if all the op wants is a block chord, he only needs to find one style that contains a pad channel playing a block chord. Then make as many copies of that style as he wants, with a different voice on the pad channel. In single finger mode, note input on a MIDI channel that's defined for Chord Detect will trigger the "style".

Bob, maybe with a bit of ankle flexing, he could hit two pedals at once to trigger the minor chords.

( A bit off-topic, but the new DGX-670 has SmartChord mode where you pick a playing style, say Jazz, and it generates more complex chords from single-finger input. Nice! )

[mikf]

A jazz band with a basic block chord playing all the time  ------ hmmm. Would tn take long to get tired of that.

[indiana.joe]

Hi guys,

Well, I understand I have to explain a bit more.

Our band is not a "classical" jazz band... the drummer has a set of weird percussions (no drumkit), we have a double neck electric coud (arabic lute), an indian sitar, and a bass.
We don't play covers nor standards, only our compositions, turkish style, or indian style or arabic, spanish, african, reggae... a.s.o.

Most of the time we don't need keyboards, but on some tunes it's a great enhancement, and since we play modal music only, I can do the trick with simple major / minor  / 7M / 7m chords.
I guess this is what you guys are calling "block chords".
No need for sus2, sus4, 9th chords: what we do is not that complex, and again it is modal music, usually played without harmonisations.

So I have ordered on eBay a 2nd hand PSR S710, hoping I'll be able to find out how to manage the volume of the parts, and to trigger the tempo with an external click connected to our percussionist's pedal.
For sure the result will be quite limited, nothing to do with "real jazz chords", but we don't play "real jazz" anyways...
I will also open the PSR and add an interface + plug that I will use to connect an external organ pedalboard under construction (I'm electronics engineer).
With such a pedalboard by using only one foot I can trigger the M / m M7 and m7 chords by pushing a maximum of 2 keys at the same time, so I'm quite confident it will work.

Thanks a lot guys for your replies and suggestions, I really appreciate your kind help.
In case you need any help regarding electronics hardware, don't hesitate!

Cheers

[mikf]

Well that is certainly different. Good luck.
Mike

[tyros5psr]

thank you very interesting

[DerekA]

Please let us know how it goes! Some screenshots, and/or video/audio will be very interesting I am sure!

[SciNote]

If I am understanding this properly, this sounds similar to how I wired up my bass pedals!  I have an old Casio MT-68, and I hooked wires from the on/off key contacts of the lower octave of the MT-68, and ran those wires (with a connector plug in line) to the on/off contacts of my 1-octave pedal board.

Now, my project was relatively easy, because the MT-68 is a 37 year old Classic mini-keyboard that does not have velocity sensitivity, so there are just two contacts per key, just like a simple SPST on/off switch.  Your PSR-S710 HAS velocity sensitivity.  Now, I am not an electronics engineer, and I do not have any Yamaha tech service manuals.  But as I understand it, velocity sensitivity often works by having two sets of contacts for each key of the keyboard, where one set makes contact just as the key is beginning to be pressed, and the other makes contact as the key is fully pressed.  The electronics of the keyboard times how long it takes from the first set of contacts to be pushed together to the second set to be pushed together, so that the less time between these two sets of contacts being pushed together, the faster (or harder) the key is pressed.  Of course, the keyboard then uses this information to make various sounds louder and brighter when you hit the key harder.

I do not know whether it is one of these sets of contacts that tells the keyboard to make sound in the first place, or whether that is handled by a third set of contacts.  But the important thing is that, no matter how it is wired, if you do not account for the velocity sensitivity contacts, then you may not get the sound you expect.  But then again, the easy-play chords may not use velocity sensitivity, and the velocity sensitivity can likely be turned off on the PSR-S710, anyway.  But you still probably need to be aware of and account for the velocity sensitivity feature when wiring up this project.

I'm guessing that you probably accounted for this in your circuit designs, but figured I'd throw this out there just in case.  And yes, please post pictures, audio, and/or video of this project and the resulting music!

[indiana.joe]

Hi SciNote,
Thanks for your interesting thoughts about the velocity contact thing... dunno if it will be required.
As I don't know nothing about these PSR-S series I have no clue!
Will try'n find the schematics, though... it might be helpful!
But I'm building the pedalboard, so I can put inside the kind of switches that will be required by the PSR-S.
(for now I don't know, I will receive it in a week or so)
Sure I will keep you guys posted, and as soon as we have a demo file with the "autochord pedal" I will also post a link to music files here.

[overover]

Hi indiana.joe,

you can find the S710 Service Manual here:
>>> https://psrtutorial.com/lessons/workshops/ServiceManuals.html

However, I would NOT connect the Bass Pedal directly to the keyboard contacts of the S710.

All you need is a MIDI Bass Pedal. If the Pedal is not MIDI-capable (only opens/closes electrical contacts), you can easily retrofit it with a small MIDI electronics.

- Connect the MIDI OUT socket of the Bass Pedal to the DIN MIDI IN socket of the S710 using a MIDI cable (5-pin DIN connectors on both ends).

- On the S710 you go to the MIDI display (Function > MIDI > EDIT) and set in "Chord Detection" the MIDI port and the MIDI channel (usually channel 1 by default) on which the Bass Pedal transmits. (In this case, Chord Detection works regardless of the currently set Style Split Point.)

- To save the edited MIDI settings press [Exit] (to leave the EDIT display). Then use the TAB buttons to go to the USER tab, press SAVE, enter a meaningful file name and press OK to save your new user-defined MIDI template.

- In "Parameter Lock" (Function > Utility > Config 1> 3 Parameter Lock) you make sure that the item "Fingering" is checked. Press [Exit] to save the setting in the System Setup.

- Now press [Direct Access] > [ACMP] and set the Chord Fingering Type to "Multi Finger". Then close the display with [Exit] to save the setting in the System Setup.


Hope this helps!

Best regards,
Chris

[viethai]

@overover
Very interesting subject and the simple answer. That would explain we don't see  "The Venture " any more on nowadays club for four piece band? How this pedal work from Solo guitar auto midi Base part?

[overover]

@overover
Very interesting subject and the simple answer. That would explain we don't see  "The Venture " any more on nowadays club for four piece band? How this pedal work from Solo guitar auto midi Base part?

Hi viethai,

unfortunately, I don't understand your question. Could you describe in other words what you mean by "How this pedal work from Solo guitar auto midi Base part?"?


Best regards,
Chris

[viethai]

Let say a band has a drummer and one guitar. The guitarist do like follow a song with his rhythm chord and lead parts. Could a midi pedal make the band has a base player is what I mean. Sorry for my limited English.

[overover]

Thanks for your quick response, viethai!

If a band only consists of a drummer and a guitarist, the guitarist can, as described above, control the style of an arranger keyboard (and thus a complete accompaniment arrangement) with a MIDI foot pedal ("bass pedal").

By "base player" you probably mean the "bass player". Yes, of course a style also contains a bass part. And of course you can mute unnecessary style parts and change the voices, effects and volumes of the individual style parts as desired. You can save the changes either as a new style or (better and easier) in registrations.

As already mentioned, you can only play major chords by pressing one single key. If the guitarist plays while seated, he could use both feet. Pressing TWO keys can also play minor and dominant-7 chords, and pressing THREE (directly adjacent) keys should also play minor-7 chords.

It should not be forgotten that you usually need additional pedals, e.g. B. for FillSelf, Break and Start / Stop or SyncStart (with the latter setting the style can be stopped and SyncStart is switched on again at the same time).

With the setup described, a "two-man band" could theoretically (almost) play like a larger band. With the line-up "Drums + Guitar" there could be timing problems if you completely switch off the drum parts of the style. With suitable keyboard models you could route the drum parts to the SUB outputs and give this signal to the drummer on the headphones. This removes the drum parts from the main mix, but the drummer can play perfectly live with these drums of the style.


P.S.
Another possibility to play like a full band with only two musicians would be to use MIDI files. These are very easy to edit (after a little training). You can mute the channels that you play live in the MIDI file. Ideally, you give the drums to the drummer on the headphones via a SUB output. The disadvantage of using MIDI files is that the live musician (s) have to follow the song sequence exactly. (Although there is the possibility to work with MARKERS here in order to be able to change the song sequence live again, this requires a lot of practice.)


Best regards,
Chris