Recording Bass line in Minor Key

[karl28]

Hi,
I'm trying to create a style for 'Mission Impossible' but can't find a way of creating the bass line to choose the right notes. Hope this makes sense.

The bass line goes from the tonic, to the minor 3rd, then 4th for the 1st bar of the phrase.

Thanks,

Karl

[DrakeM]

What are you using to create the bass line? Just your keyboard or PC software?

If you are recording with your keyboard, are you recording an INTRO or in one of  the 4 MAINS?

Remember to record using "Maj" and not the default "Cm7" that the keyboard is set up to use.

[karl28]

Hi Drake,
I'm just using my Genos. Originally I thought I'd have to do it in Am with it been the reletive minor key to Cmajor but it didn't work so I then tried it in Cmaj but the Eb note through a spanner in the works.
This was just for the main riff section.

Thanks.

[overover]

Hi Karl,

if you set the Source Root and Chord (e.g. Am) before recording, you should be able to use the minor-3rd and the 4th (C and D in the case of A minor).

The attached picture shows the playable notes when Source Root is C.


Best regards,
Chris

[attachment deleted by admin]

[mikf]

Remember to record using "Maj" and not the default "Cm7" that the keyboard is set up to use.

Drake - why would you do this? What would it change?
Mike

[mikf]

Karl - when you say you want the bass to go tonic, minor 3rd, 4th , what chord is being played when the tune is being played for real - minor or major? You have to remember you are programming in Cm7, so the third is not Eb but E. But if you program E then when you play the style for real, and play a minor chord the interval will be correct. ie it will play the minor 3rd, so if you play A minor the notes will be A, C, D. If you play C major it will be C E F, but play Cminor chord and it should be  C Eb F.
That is one of the real hard things about style programming is working out in your head what you play in C so it will sound correctly when the normal chords are played. Like Chris says, you can do it a bit differently if you change the source chord to minor. But it can get really tricky trying to the predict real time behavior of a riff when you use advanced chords like diminished, half diminished, augmented etc. Or at least, that's what I have found!
Mike

[overover]

Hi Mike,

yes, the default Source Root / Chord is "CM7" (= "C Major7", can be written also as "Cmaj7"). (This is not "Cm7", because that stands for "C minor7"!)

As you can see in the picture attached to my first post: If using "CM7" (chord notes C - E - G - B), you can record an "E", and this note will be converted to "Eb" when you play the "Cm" ("C minor") chord later. BUT the 4th (= the note "F") is not a "recommended" note when recording in "CM7".

If using "Cm" (chord notes C - Eb - G), the 4th (= the note "F") is a "recommended" note. Therefore I recommend to use the setting "Cm" (C minor) or directly "Am" (A minor) in this case.


Best regards,
Chris

[mikf]

Hi Chris - I knew the default chord was CM7, just my lazy typing. But I thought until you pointed it out that all the scale tones of the major scale were permitted, not just chord tones, so was surprised that F is apparently not allowed. However, just as an experiment, I tried programming the bass line C E F to a style, and lo and behold it seemed to work. I saved the style and tried it, and it played exactly right, A C D when I played an A minor chord and C Eb F when I played a C minor chord.
I have long wondered, given the rules, how you can program chromatic riffs and phrases. I am sure that I can remember playing styles like this, although I cannot lay my hands on an example right now. But just for fun, I then recorded the bass line C E F F# G F E D - not an unusual bass line - in the default setting, and again it seemed to work when I tried it with different chords.  Go figure!
Mike

[overover]

Hi Mike,

thanks for your quick feedback!

I rarely program Styles from scratch or record new Source Patterns in Style Creator. In most cases I only edit Styles, and here in mostly with PC programs. However, I know of some cases in which "tricks" were used in Style programming in order to realize "not allowed" notes (e.g. using static Pitch Bend).


P.S.
Which notes of your bass line "C E F F# | G F E D" are heard when you play "Cm" (C minor)? Is it "C Eb F F# | G F Eb D" then?


@karl28
Hi Karl,
you could contact our forum member >>> "Heidrun" via PM. Heidrun is the owner of the company >>> "soundwonderland.de" and she is an excellent Style programmer.

Best regards,
Chris

[karl28]

Thanks everyone for your input.
I'll give your suggestions a try. It's really had me beat. I don't normally program styles, but this one is for a friend.

Karl - when you say you want the bass to go tonic, minor 3rd, 4th , what chord is being played when the tune is being played for real - minor or major? You have to remember you are programming in Cm7, so the third is not Eb but E. But if you program E then when you play the style for real, and play a minor chord the interval will be correct. ie it will play the minor 3rd, so if you play A minor the notes will be A, C, D. If you play C major it will be C E F, but play Cminor chord and it should be  C Eb F.
That is one of the real hard things about style programming is working out in your head what you play in C so it will sound correctly when the normal chords are played. Like Chris says, you can do it a bit differently if you change the source chord to minor. But it can get really tricky trying to the predict real time behavior of a riff when you use advanced chords like diminished, half diminished, augmented etc. Or at least, that's what I have found!
Mike

The first chord is Gm on the main theme.
I'll have a look and see where you set the source root as I've never did this before I don't think.

Thanks again everyone.

Regards,

Karl

[mikf]

Karl
I don't think you have to change from CM7 source code - the default setting- just program the right notes. See above - I found it worked on CM7. Why dont you try it. Just remember that you cannot program the actual notes you want it to play - you have to program the style in the major, then it transposes to minor for you when you play a minor chord in normal playing. It doesn't matter that the chord you want to play is G minor. Most styles you play on the keyboard will have used CM7  as the source chord, they still correctly react to play minor and other chords through the note transposition algorithms.   
Mike

[ckobu]

The combination is many, multiple modalities and settings can be used within CASM. We can use different Source Root / Chord for the same effect.
Karl, download this rhythm (replace / delete the .jpg extension) and just copy (Assemly) the bass channel to your rhythm. Your rhythm will get the correct bass line. You can watch these 4 videos, I tried to explain some basic things in Style Creator.

01. SFF Edit - Source Root/Chord
https://youtu.be/vLGLjvfRJ2s

02. SFF Edit - NTT/NTR [Root Trans, Root Fixed]
https://youtu.be/Gh0-keHru3A

03. SFF Edit - NTT/NTR [Guitar Rule]
https://youtu.be/bJ8Sip05_24

04. SFF Edit - RTR [Hight Key - Note Limit]
https://youtu.be/LnYs0n88g3E

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[karl28]

Thanks very much. I'll give that a try.

Regards,

Karl

[DrakeM]

Drake - why would you do this? What would it change?
Mike

Hi Mike,

When using the "Source Code" M7 to record, the note Bb is never recorded as a Bb but as a C note. In this song "Boots Are Made For Walking", a Bb note is required to record this icon bass run down, which is done several times in the song.

https://app.box.com/s/byz7shaams6o7wytfquuw67u9ak40nls

By recording in the "Source Code" Maj and not the default M7, you can record ANY note run on the keyboard and it will play back after the recording in the style correctly.

Since I have discovered this about recording using "Source Code" Maj, I record all my riffs into the style in this manner.

Regards
Drake

[karl28]

Karl
I don't think you have to change from CM7 source code - the default setting- just program the right notes. See above - I found it worked on CM7. Why dont you try it. Just remember that you cannot program the actual notes you want it to play - you have to program the style in the major, then it transposes to minor for you when you play a minor chord in normal playing. It doesn't matter that the chord you want to play is G minor. Most styles you play on the keyboard will have used CM7  as the source chord, they still correctly react to play minor and other chords through the note transposition algorithms.   
Mike

I've managed to get the first bar to work now. I'd never of thought playing C, E & F :-)
How would I do the next bar which is C,C Bb B?

Thanks again,

Karl

[ckobu]

Why don't you copy my Bass channel into your Style? 
After all, look at the settings on my Style and do the same. You have two variations, where the bass plays the scheme for the second part of the song.

[karl28]

I'm just trying to copy it now on my Mac but it's showing as a jpeg even though I've deleted the jpeg extension so I'm going to try it on a Windows pc :-)

Thanks

[karl28]

I've managed to get it saved as a style now. Just need to work out how to do the assembly part. I thought I'd did it correct but it's not allowing me to highlight the bass section in style creator.

You can probably tell I'm new to style creator :-)

Karl

[ckobu]

Okay, I understand, these are Mac "Problems". 
Download Style and try copying the bass channel now.

https://app.box.com/s/e17aqt6sp44iawcw64u5mkf36i26gf2g


Which keyboard model do you use?

[karl28]

I've managed to play the style which sounds good but my version is the 5/4 one.
Here is the link to mine.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/j58qrk1cz6k8bgs/mission%2054.S837.sty?dl=0

Thanks