Genos midi files to audio on Daw

[cranders]

HELP PLEASE! I recently got a Genos and I am using Cakewalk. I recorded midi tracks on Genos, saved to a thumb drive and then imported the files to Cakewalk. The files sound great as midi but when I record them to audio the audio tracks are noisy and they did not record the full midi voice and all of it's elements. I'm hoping it's just a settings issue on the Genos that I have to change? I am using a Focusrite Scarlett 2 soundcard. Also I have midi cables connected to Focusrite and Genos as well as a midi usb cable connected - I might just need the usb? I also have two instrument cables hooked into 1 and 2 on focusrite running to MAIN right and Main L/R on back of Genos. I heard that it's really hard to get the full midi voice exported to a daw because of Yamaha exclusivity - I hope not for as much money as the Genos cost! I want to be able to record tracks on Genos, import them to my daw and record them as audio without losing any quality. Is that possible?? Thanks for your help!!

[markstyles]

I'm not familiar with any of the equipment you use, but it certainly is possible to have a DAW play a midi file, GENOS to play the sound (you have to select the proper program)..  with great fidelity. 

MIDI is data only, it has no sound, it is instructions to tell a keyboard/sound module to play a note, then a rest, then a note, etc.  The sound will depend totally on the sound module (GENOS) or a VST  plug-in, any keyboard.

Be aware that Genos has a few different types of sounds, Art2, Mega, voices..  The Mega voices rely heavily on velocity, generally MEGA sounds are made up of different kind of samples.  Say in a guitar, some notes, are struck hard, have fret noise, squeaks, more harmonics.  Velocity trigger different samples. Playing mega voices by hand yield results of not much value, because they are dependent on exact velocity of specific notes. 

So if what you record sounds wrong, a probable cause is the Genos is set to a wrong program. 

Tracks being noisy, might imply you have the wrong levels.  Hopefully someone else here is knowledgeable with your equipment..  But don't give up hope.  you just need to get things properly patched up.

[Fred Smith]

If you want the best quality, record the audio on the Genos. Just play the midi file, and record at the same time.

Cheers,
Fred

[cranders]

MarkStyles thanks for replying. I already have the midi files successfully imported and saved on my daw and they are the correct voices. They sound great. It's when I record the midi tracks to an audio track that I lose voice expressions, etc. - it's still the same patches and sounds, just inferior.

[cranders]

Thanks Fred for replying. Yes, I can just play the midi tracks and sing to them to record my vocals, etc. But when it's time to mix and master those tracks will have to be audio.

[overover]

HELP PLEASE! I recently got a Genos and I am using Cakewalk. I recorded midi tracks on Genos, saved to a thumb drive and then imported the files to Cakewalk. The files sound great as midi but when I record them to audio the audio tracks are noisy and they did not record the full midi voice and all of it's elements. I'm hoping it's just a settings issue on the Genos that I have to change?

Hi cranders,

depending of the settings on your DAW (Cakewalk), after importing a MIDI file from a USB stick (thumb drive) you will have only one Track (that contains all MIDI data of all Channels), or the MIDI data are automatically split into individual tracks (depending on the MIDI channel).

If the latter doesn't happen automatically, you'll have to do it manually. Note: The Sy*** messages are very important here. If you have all Sy*** messages in a separate track (which is recommended), you must NOT mute this track, because it contains not only the GM and XG Reset (at the beginning of the first bar), but also many other important Sy*** data (e.g. for effects / DSPs). Please also note that Effects Sy*** are often channel-related. I.e. if you change the MIDI channel of a voice in the DAW, the corresponding effect may no longer work.

If the Sy*** are NOT in a separate track in the DAW, they may be displayed in one of the tracks for MIDI channels 1 - 16 (although Sy*** is NOT channel-related MIDI data). In this case, this track (which contains both normal channel events and the Sy***) must NOT be muted (so that the Sy*** is sent to the Genos sound generation as intended). And of course the DAW must generally be set up so that Sy*** is output via MIDI.

I am using a Focusrite Scarlett 2 soundcard. Also I have midi cables connected to Focusrite and Genos as well as a midi usb cable connected - I might just need the usb? I also have two instrument cables hooked into 1 and 2 on focusrite running to MAIN right and Main L/R on back of Genos.

You can use either the USB-MIDI connection OR a MIDI connection via standard DIN MIDI cables. Usually you should NOT have both connected at the same time. But in principle nothing can "happen" even then, because in the DAW you usually select either your MIDI interface OR the USB-MIDI driver to output the MIDI tracks to the Genos. To use USB-MIDI it is strongly recommended to have installed the Yamaha USB-MIDI Driver. For a current Windows system you normally need the 64-bit version of the USB-MIDI driver (current version 3.1.4).
>>> https://uk.yamaha.com/en/products/musical_instruments/keyboards/arranger_workstations/genos/downloads.html#product-tabs

First of all, make sure that the Preset MIDI template "All Parts" is selected on the Genos. Then you can control the SONG Parts of the Genos via MIDI Port 1 from the DAW.

If you use the USB-MIDI connection, set the Port "Digital Workstation 1" as MIDI Output Port for each MIDI Track on the DAW.

If you use DIN-MIDI cables, connect the DIN-MIDI A IN socket to the DIN MIDI OUT of your MIDI Interface (Focusrite). The second DIN-MIDI cable (from MIDI A OUT to the MIDI IN of the MIDI Interface) only needs to be connected if you want to use the Genos keyboard to import MIDI data into the DAW.

Note: Do not select the USB-MIDI Port "Digital Workstation 2" as MIDI Output Port on the DAW, and do not use the DIN MIDI B IN socket in this case. Via this MIDI Port 2 the Keyboard Parts and the Style Parts of the Genos can be controlled. But if you route the Channels of a MIDI file to MIDI Port 2, you will not get the right sounds in many cases.

Note also: Via USB-MIDI you can NOT transmit on MIDI Port 2 from the Genos. This means: IF you want (some day) to transmit the MIDI data of a MIDI file which is played back in the internal MIDI Player of the Genos, you can either use the DIN MIDI B OUT socket OR you have to create a user defined MIDI template in which you re-route the Output of the internal SONG Channels to MIDI Port 1.

I heard that it's really hard to get the full midi voice exported to a daw because of Yamaha exclusivity - I hope not for as much money as the Genos cost! I want to be able to record tracks on Genos, import them to my daw and record them as audio without losing any quality. Is that possible?? Thanks for your help!!

If you have followed all these instructions regarding the MIDI control of the Genos from the DAW, a MIDI file played on the DAW (played via MIDI / USB-MIDI via the Genos sound generation) MUST sound EXACTLY as if you were doing it directly on the Genos play.

This means that if everything works so far, your problem (poor audio recording quality) can only be due to the recording settings of your audio interface or your DAW.

Oh, before I forget: Please turn up the Master Volume on the Genos relatively high! I recommend the "three o'clock" position, i.e. turned up to three quarters. You are also welcome to try it with the master volume fully turned up. The less you turn up the Master Volume of the Genos, the more you have to turn up the GAIN on your Audio Interface (and thus have more Noise in the recorded signal). And always be sure to set the Input GAIN on your Interface correctly (as high as possible, but without Clipping indicator lit).

Of course, it is also important to set the Sampling Rate and the Sampling Resolution on the DAW appropriately. For normal applications, 44.1 kHz at 24-bit should be sufficient.


Hope this helps!

Best regards,
Chris

[Janus]

Why take the long way ?
Simple record the midi song with the Genos audio recorder to wav file
Load the wav file in your daw that's all you need to do
The fault with the daw is that it use the internal pc audio card midi synth for recording

Gr.Jan

[dillyboy]

Hi I use my Genos and Sonar X2 pro - its all about getting the keyboard midi'd up to your Focusrite soundcard properly - and most importantly that you have the correct instrument definition file loaded into Sonar (if you search the forum you can find out where to download it from).

The problem with just playing the midi file and recording it into Sonar as one single WAV file is that you will have no control over any individual track and say if you notice that for example the bass is not loud enough, you cannot amend that on a single WAV file.

* load your midi on to a usb and put it on your desktop
* open it from within Sonar
* I know it takes a while but you then have to record each track separately by soloing
   each track one at a time, the benefit of this is, you can properly mix the audio tracks
   and have fun adding the effects etc for the final mix, you also have a better control
   over volumes etc.

Don't give up the end result is great!! 

Good luck with your projects

Nigel

[Janus]

Remix the midi file first with midi file edit  before recording to wav

[Dromeus]

Hi Craig

In addition to the personal msg I sent you. What you describe suggests that important initialization events are not sent from Cakewalk to Genos. There are two posibilities I know of (maybe even more) what could have gone wrong.

Open the MIDI file instead of importing it

People often speak about importing MIDI files because that's the way the job is accomplished in their DAW. In Cakewalk there is a difference. By any means use File/Open to open your MIDI File. This creates a Cakewalk project and reads ALL MIDI data from the file. For each channel used in the file a track is created automatically, you don't have to dissolve/split channels. Importing a MIDI file assumes that you have already setup a MIDI project including initialization events and you just want to add data from the file, but NOT some of the initializing data.

Extra credit: Drag/drop operation using a MIDI file will IMPORT the file, so stay away from this. I read statements that dropping a file onto the Cakewalk background (no project open) should do an Open operation, but in my experience it's an Import operation nevertheless. I just avoid to drag/drop MIDI files to Cakewalk.

Incorrect routing of Sy*** Msgs

Life is easy if you have a single MIDI interface with a single MIDI port. This ensures that routing of messages to a different device is not possible. Having said this I strongly recommend to use a single MIDI connection to Genos. I propose to remove the USB cable and use conventional cables, at least until you've sorted out your problems. If everything is fine then it should be easy to use USB cabling later, if you prefer that. Do not use conventional and USB MIDI at the same time.

If you have more than one MIDI port, there is the possibility that events will be routed to the wrong device. Think about it, this could be the reason of your problems, because you had USB MIDI ports AND the Focusrite MIDI port connected. Anyway if you have more than one MIDI port, I suggest that you tell Cakewalk which port the Genos is connected to PRIOR to opening the file. Just go to Preferences/MIDI/Devices and select as output only the MIDI port where Genos is connected. Deselect any other available output ports.

Deeper explanation, why this is important. If Cakewalk opens a MIDI file, the output port chosen will be assigned automatically to any tracks generated. In addition, Cakewalk has the habit to manage bigger chunks of sy*** data as sy*** banks. Specifically sy*** data > 256 bytes will be stored in banks always. Be assured that any MIDI recording on Genos using styles contain big sy*** chunk(s) in the first initialization measure. Now, sy*** banks can be routed independently, and that's what can go wrong here. If you set a single output port in your preferences, everything should be okay. If you select more than one output MIDI port in your preferences, Cakewalk will use the top entry of the port list. If you realize after opening the MIDI file that the top entry was the wrong one, then you might want to correct this by just changing the output port for any MIDI track in your project. That's fine but remember that sy*** banks are routed independently! So if you don't change the output port of the sy*** banks accordingly, they won't get sent to Genos. Screwed up big time!

Hope that helps. BTW you don't need an instrument definition loaded, it's optional.

Michael

[Lee Batchelor]

Why take the long way ?
Simple record the midi song with the Genos audio recorder to wav file
Load the wav file in your daw that's all you need to do
The fault with the daw is that it use the internal pc audio card midi synth for recording

Gr.Jan

Not quite correct, Gr. Jan. Cranders is using a Focusrite audio interface, which is an excellent product. I agree if Cranders was using the on board sound card, it would be a problem.

[Janus]

Not quite correct, Gr. Jan. Cranders is using a Focusrite audio interface, which is an excellent product. I agree if Cranders was using the on board sound card, it would be a problem.

You can't improve a sound with a better audio interface
You can only make it worser with a bad interface
The quality is fixed by the Genos
And the internal midi to audio recorder is good enough for recording in Genos quality
And it is the shortest way there are no cables needed
You can even record track by track by muting tracks and record all tracks one by one

[cranders]

Everyone thank you SO much for your advice and input! Janus I like your idea but would I be able to mix the wave file after it's in the DAW? And Michael....THANK YOU! I now no longer have noise and I'm recording the whole voice. I disconnected the midi cables and just used usb midi - only because without the usb the Digital Workstation wasn't an option for ins and outs. So thank you so much my friend and when I have the full song recorded I will send it to you

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Cranders .
You can improve the Genos sound quite a bit.
Yes, Mix the song that you have made on the Genos in the sequencer, as this helps towards the midi file that it produces.

Once you are happy with the finished song.----------

Now make sure all  pan's,effects etc are on zero so you have all at unity. Create the midi file and send it over to your Daw
I use Cubase 11 and the song imported has to have the right ins and outs done.
In my case it is Not Connected /Genos workstation in the inspector ( If you put all midi /Genos workstation you can get strange midi anomalies
Even now and then sound can alter and to correct that, you have to go back to where the program change has been to rectify.
This sometimes happens when correcting little mistakes and note lengths
I usually tighten all up.

I took advice of some others and record each track separately. when editing tracks in midi, get the flack out of the style sections. This is left over notes splattered all over a track.
I have been told this happens as when we change chords in a style ,we may be slightly off the mark so it leaves partial notes here and there which is annoying to  mix.
I Play a song all the way through using different registrations, so after tightening up of midi song and recording the lead playing tracks , i can then get the scissors and cut to put the lead playing on separate tracks.
Also i disolve the Drum track and then i have all the drum parts separated.
So after a little patience you have quite a few tracks all in wave file format. Once happy highlight all midi tracks and delete them leaving you just with the Wave file tracks.
Rename the wave file tracks to save the midi and wave file tracks because you may want to recall what you have done.

Now you can mix the song as you like in your daw after gain staging to get balance

I do have Ozone 9 and you can improve sounds once in wave format.
I do notice that the Genos sounds are not quite 100% as i have found certain anomalies like hooting, in sounds.
This can be rectified by an EQ plugin

All of this is everyones preference really as some like a no nonsence approach to songs and are happy going for Genos record and using a limiter in Audacity to bring the sound up to -0.3 db
Others like me like to go the Cubase way, but it can get frustrating when things do not turn out the way you expect.
It still has me wondering sometimes whether i should have just used the Genos, but  once i got Fireball XL5 done i was more than happy with the Cubase way by mixing and attempting to master with Ozone 9.
I say this because mastering is an art that i am only at the beginning stages with.
Ozone 9 does a fair old jobby though.
I am still learning with failures and sucesses. I also use a Focusrite usb box. Great hardware for the soft bits.
Oh well, It keeps me out of trouble!!


All the best
John

[Lee Batchelor]

Why take the long way ?
Simple record the midi song with the Genos audio recorder to wav file
Load the wav file in your daw that's all you need to do
The fault with the daw is that it use the internal pc audio card midi synth for recording

Gr.Jan

Also, if the MIDI needs to be edited before rendering to audio, the last place you want to edit MIDI is on a keyboard! It takes way too long. Any decent DAW, even the free ones, makes it easier to edit MIDI.

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Cranders
I would dump Cakewalk and splash the cash and get Cubase 11  if you are serious.
When you import a midi file it also imports the chord and sys ex data
Once the Yamaha Genos has been recognized ,which you set up, you are away

In Cubase in Inspector it has to Be
NOT CONNECTED
not All midi
Also GENOS WORKSTATION underneath needs to show.
Once you master this , then you would discover the contol room.
Cubase works 100% for me now with the Genos.

All the best
John