GM&XG/GM2 Voices mystery on PSR-SX

[BogdanH]

Hello all,
Not sure if this was covered in this forum, so I apologize in advance for being boring...
As probably known, on PSR-SX we can't select any of GM&XG/GM2 voices anymore, and they also aren't listen in Yamaha's Data List. Why Yamaha decided for that move, will probably remain a mystery. Anyway, I think it's a bug. Let me explain why I think so:

If I load a Style, which has some GM&XG/GM2 voice defined in OTS and try to change that voice, then I land in appropriate GM&XG/GM2 category. That is, if it was some piano voice, then I can change it to any other piano voice inside GM&XG/GM2 Piano category. However, I can not change it to some violin (for example). That is, if I choose "go up" on display (to see other GM&XG/GM2 categories), I land on empty screen; and I can not return back to Piano category either. The only thing I can do is either to cancel whole thing, or choose any of panel voices.
Now another example... Let's say I load a Style, which has same GM&XG/GM2 piano voice defined, but this time for style itself; i.e. in Chord1. If I now try to change that voice, I can choose any voice from any GM&XG/GM2 category.

Question is.. does PSR-SX support GM&XG/GM2 voices, or not? They are not in Data List, so one would think these voices aren't supported officially. On the other hand, if they're already defined in Styles, they work. And we can change them.. in certain range, depending on where they are defined.

Bogdan

[panos]

Hi Bogdan,
Look at the topic below.
If you still have a problem with those voices you can download the zip file that Eileen posted I guess.

https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,51466.msg402908.html#msg402908

[Enildo]

Hello Bogdan!

I hadn't realized it yet, it's true. You can change the style, the song and you can record a multi pad, but you cannot select directly for the right hand (Left, R1, R2 or R3). Very strange. The interesting thing is that if you try to record a Multi Pad, the voice remains in the right hand, but when we try to move to another folder, everything disappears.
I think there is an error in the system.

Enildo

[LaHawk]

Yes they are there, but for whatever reason are hidden:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpo8X89Ix4k

[Enildo]

Are they, at last, wanting to retire the GM voices?

[Toril S]

Download the zip file with the XG voices unzip it, extract it to a USB stick, and put it in user voice section on your XS keyboards, and use them from there. I have done that on my Genos. Works fine. But yes, it may be a bug, or some programmer had a bad hair day!

[Heidrun]

Hi together,

I heard that Yamaha won't support these old voices - exceptional for MIDI files or styles, so that old files also can be used.
They want us not to play with old voices. It is intentional and no bug.

Like you I am very unhappy with that, and have sent two times that Photoshop-created photo about our wish to Yamaha Rellingen.

Perhaps we have to shout louder? ;-)



Kind regards, Heidrun

[BogdanH]

Thank you all for showing the interest on this topic, even it has already been covered among Genos users.

I heard that Yamaha won't support these old voices...

-to me, they already aren't supported, as we can't use them directly. And using "tricks", like voice lists in (precious) user memory, makes semi-pro arranger keyboard look pretty lame. Especially when seeing Yamaha still boldly advertise GM&XG compatibility in manuals (and elsewhere). There isn't mentioned it's for playback only, though.

You know what? I still think it's a bug. Time will tell... and maybe next Yamaha keyboard will have a "feature" where user can select GM&XG voices directly 

Bogdan

[LaHawk]

As Heidrun has hinted, we should all contact Yamaha about GM and XG voices. I do like her setup (photo shop) and would be nice if this was included in a future update....IF there is a future update.

[hans1966]

Hello Friends, I agree with all of you, it would be good if Yamaha corrected this error of the hidden voices GM, XG and GS. hopefully (if possible) in the next fimware update.  as LaHawk said before, "if there is an update".  regards.  Hans

[Heidrun]

Hello folks,

I am sure thar it isn't a bug, because also in the Tyros models Yamaha put the older voices out of sight!
You always had to go a folder up to see the old folders like Legacy, GM & XG etc.

They want us to play only with the new voices.
But they don't know that older voices ar important for sound mixing.
Because you need different basic sounds (wavs) that they don't cause problems with inteferences and cancellations!

The more keyboard players tell Yamaha that we also want full support for those old voices, the more they will do it ... hopefully! ;-)

Kind regards, Heidrun

[Toril S]

Start a facebook group maybe? It is also my opinion that all new keyboard models should be able to play all old keyboard model voices. That is not the case.

[Fred Smith]

Start a facebook group maybe? It is also my opinion that all new keyboard models should be able to play all old keyboard model voices. That is not the case.

There is already a Yamaha users Facebook page.

Of course it would be nice to have all old voices, but memory will always be an issue. Would you rather have old voices, or more expansion memory?

Most users, especially new ones who buy keyboards, would vote for more expansion memory.

Cheers,
Fred

[BogdanH]

..Of course it would be nice to have all old voices, but memory will always be an issue...

The thing is, voices already exist and User Interface for accessing/selecting these voices exist too in keyboard OS -means, memory as already taken. So why not make all that available?

Btw. I wrote an enquiry about this to Yamaha and got the answer. Answer was.. not really convincing, so I asked for further clarification. When I get that answer too, I will inform you in detail.

Bogdan

[Heidrun]

Very good, Bodgan - we are very interested!!!

I could imagine that only this point - direct voice access - could already influence Tyros and PSR / PSR-S players to change to the new keyboard generation.

Yamaha - do you read this?!

Kind regards, Heidrun

[BogdanH]

Ok, here it goes..

My first writing to Yamaha support:

Even it's written in Manual (and elsewhere) this keyboard is GM&XG/GM2 compatible, that's only half way true. The thing is, I can only listen/change these voices if they are already used in music content (Style), but I can not use these voices when creating new content (i.e. new Style) on keyboard, nor can I access these voices to assign them to R1, R2, R3 & L.
I hope this issue will be solved soon (by firmware update), because as it is, GM&XG/GM2 compatibility claim is misleading at least.

Answer:

We understand this is a difficult topic.
PSR-SX (even Genos) is compatible to GM&XG/GM2 MIDI Songs. If you are a Programmer, you are able to use such voices via bank & program change.
What Developers have decides is to remove these voices from Panel Voices which means, you can not select them easily for your live performance.
If you f.e. use Step Edit in MIDI Recording you can easily put any CC 0, 32 and Program Change, also in Style Creator.
Please refer to Data List for your desired values: PSR-SX700

My second/last writing:

If GM&XG/GM2 voices can not be selected on Panel, it would be fair to properly inform customer, that PSR-SX does not support using these voices (is backward compatible only). Needless to say, that decision, to remove these voices from Panel/Display, makes PSR-SX of limited use.
However, here comes the strange thing in this regard. If I load a Style, which already uses any of GM&XG/GM2 voices (i.e. for Chord1) and try to change that voice, then all GM&XG/GM voices become available on display and I can select any of them. Even more: I can also select voices in Categories which by default are not available on Display: MegaVoice, StyleVoice and Legacy voices. Means, User Interface for all voices exist in keyboard OS. My impression is, Developers somehow "forgot" to implement a link to these categories on Display -it's so called "bug".
And finally, in Data List document, GM&XG/GM2 voices (numbers) are not listed at all.

-here I was wrong in one thing: Legacy and Mega voices can be directly accessed (but I already clicked Send).

Answer:

there you have found a hidden funktionality of the PSR-SX. Thats what we told before: The XG-Voices are all on bord, to have the right voices for Midifiles and Styles, but they are not reachable for playing them directly on the keyboard. This is not a bug. It was the decision of the developers.

And that's it... in plain text: it is as it is. I didn't expect Yamaha would admit a "bug", but I did hoped for something like ".. developers will check the issue and decide if there's a need for firmware change..".
Instead there's obligatory response, avoiding to comment actual issue. So much about having a support.

Bogdan

[DerekA]

You got your answer - they deliberately decided not to provide voice definition files as presets for those voices.

So I get that people don't like this answer, but the definition files are freely available, and take a few minutes to install, so there's really no point in making a big deal about this.

[EileenL]

Hi,
  Try these. Just save to USER and you can access them anytime

https://app.box.com/s/byuyhdoa8kyy1hyyt1l7tgpp82sl45ud

[dflstarry]

Just want to say Thank You Eileen, I downloaded the voices last night, it works great. Thank You.
Denny

[Heidrun]

Thank you for showing us your conversation, Bodgan.

As I told you all: It is intentional and no bug.

The sense behind that might be discussed.

Yes, Eileen has a workaround.
But is it really so that the users always have to accept what the developers decide - and that they have to develope tools and other things that the users get what they want??
(oh those mini-revolutist thoughts... smile)

My experience is that a company will survive when ...

... it has top quality products
... an exceptionel support
... it listens to their clients and their wishes
... and has product prices that are fair and in relation to the effort of their product developement and support

Happy client thoughts... :-)

Kind regards, Heidrun

[EileenL]

I agree with you Heidrun but I do think Yamaha listen to us but they then have to decide on what they think will be best for everyone.
I am sticking my neck out here but I don't think these sounds are used by many. I just posted my set because it is a way around getting them and some work nicely with voice mixes.

[BogdanH]

...but I do think Yamaha listen to us but they then have to decide on what they think will be best for everyone...

That's quite naive way of thinking if I may say. Every company only has one thing in mind: to make profit -been there, done that.

I knew about "workaround" with GM&XG/GM2 voices before I sent enquiry to Yamaha. Point being, product doesn't work as advertised (is only backward compatible) . And reconciling with "many don't use these voices anyway" only proves we are ready to accept whatever we (can't) get -kinda reminds me on famous Aesop fable "The Fox and the Grapes".

Ok, that's all from my side in this regard.. Thank you all for participating and sharing your thoughts.
Bogdan

PS: Don't get me wrong: I'm very happy with my SX700 and it will stay with me for many years. Actually SX700 deserves better musician than I am 

[Enildo]

That's quite naive way of thinking if I may say. Every company only has one thing in mind: to make profit -been there, done that.

I knew about "workaround" with GM&XG/GM2 voices before I sent enquiry to Yamaha. Point being, product doesn't work as advertised (is only backward compatible) . And reconciling with "many don't use these voices anyway" only proves we are ready to accept whatever we (can't) get -kinda reminds me on famous Aesop fable "The Fox and the Grapes".

Ok, that's all from my side in this regard.. Thank you all for participating and sharing your thoughts.
Bogdan

PS: Don't get me wrong: I'm very happy with my SX700 and it will stay with me for many years. Actually SX700 deserves better musician than I am 

Aesop's fable closed the topic with mastery!

[Joe H]

You got your answer - they deliberately decided not to provide voice definition files as presets for those voices.

So I get that people don't like this answer, but the definition files are freely available, and take a few minutes to install, so there's really no point in making a big deal about this.

I agree!  The thing about the GM/XG Voices is that they have different wave forms than the Preset Voices but do not have DSPs assigned to them.  If you have copied the folders for GM/XG and GM2 to your USB drive or User drive, when you select any of these Voices for R1, R2, R3, or Left, you can open Voice Set and modify them to sound as good the the Preset Voices.  They will then sound different (much better) as User Voices.

Joe H

[EileenL]

Yes Joe,
That is exactly what I do to these voices. I edit them to my liking and you can have some real fun with them.
  We can't always have what we want on these keyboards but there are some work arounds and this is one.

[rcpilot]

BogdanH,
The SX-900 deserves a much better musician than I am as well....but I'm slowly working on it!
Lee