Genos as a MIDI controller

[Lee Batchelor]

Hi team,

I have decided to abandon the idea of recording the Genos on a DAW like Cubase. Instead, I'm going to just use it as a MIDI controller for VST instruments and drum patterns using HALion and Groove Agent.

Does anyone have experience doing this? Is the process fairly straight forward or is using the Genos for this purpose as big as a pain in the backside as recording the Genos in a DAW?

Thanks...

[Genos!]

Actually, you will probably find that the opposite is true.

I'm not sure that all of the nob turns and sliders will transmit midi events.

I am sure that you will have a lot better success playing on the Genos and recording the midi, and then working on the midi within Cubase, or Reaper (...yada-yada), and adding in all of the automation within the DAW.

Genos would be my last choice to use as a midi-controller, or DAW.

I have four keyboards, and Genos was not designed to transmit to them while it talks to itself. A proper DAW is designed to do just that, communicate with everything, and more.

[KeyboardByBiggs]

Does anyone have experience doing this? Is the process fairly straight forward or is using the Genos for this purpose as big as a pain in the backside as recording the Genos in a DAW?

Check this out Lee. A great example of using a Yamaha arranger in concert with Cubase.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4uEfFVPQsg

[Lee Batchelor]

Thanks KB Biggs. I've gotten that far with recording the Genos to a DAW. The video describes how to do the basic recording on the Genos, import to Cubase, and then add audio tracks. What I really need is to add more MIDI tracks from the Gemos. In terms of fine editing, MIDI is far superior and easier than audio.

[Lee Batchelor]

I agree, Genos!. Hence my question. I want to use the Genos strictly to control the VST instruments within Cubase.

Does anyone use their Genos for this specific purpose? I'm not sure how complicated it is. When you use a VST instrument, you load it to a MIDI track and trigger that track with the Genos key bed. I assume you probably need to turn the Genos "Local control" to Off. There would also be no audio connections needed from the Genos to the audio interface.

[Lee Batchelor]

This gentleman gives an excellent explanation of how to set up the Genos for recording in a DAW.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFu_Ac5213I

[Bachus]

Actually its quite simple...

Just set up your midi to transmit on all channels..
Make a performance that replaces left voice,  r1 and r3 with the init voice
This is a voice that does not make any sound..
This gives you when you set up your split, 1,2 or 3 zones for playing VST's..

For live playing its advised to use a specific vst host like Camelot Pro..

For recording on your DAW.. its easy..  only use the parts you want to record..
Make this selection on your Daw..

Then you go to your knobs..
Choose 6 parameters that send CC over midi.. and use midi learn on your vst's/daw/host to set them to any parameter you want

[Lee Batchelor]

Excellent explanation, Bachus. Thanks. All I need now is to have someone explain how to get to your steps. There are a million things that need to be configured in Cubase long before any of your steps will make sense to me.

Cubase is definitely not designed for the beginner like myself. You must have a thorough knowledge of signal routing, MIDI transmit and receive functions, and how they all relate to VST instruments, the Genos, and Cubase itself. If I could only rewind your tape and play it from the part where you say, "Open Cubase," I may be able to get somewhere.

Thanks for the help .

[Lee Batchelor]

I have listened to about five videos on recording the Genos directly into Cubase. My hat's off to those guys who can actually get it to work. It is VERY convoluted and takes forever to set up. Even after you get things going and have recorded a song, you need to go into the Genos and reload the style several times for things to work correctly. Then, you have to go in and delete the funny little noises that Cubase recorded from the SA2 voices. The whole process is like watching a drunk pig on stilts, and that's after you have all your instrument definitions loaded and a custom MIDI template built and stored in the Genos.

I'm going to see if I can just use the Genos as a MIDI controller for VST voices and drums. Steinberg has an absolutely ridiculously low sale price on HALion 6 and Groove Agent 5 - 50 percent off!! The voices on the demo videos are on par if not better than the Genos. Plain and simple, the Genos is an excellent live playing tool. For recording, it isn't even housebroken. Too many trap doors and booby traps.

Once again, is anyone using their Genos to just control VST instruments in Cubase? Thanks .

[jugge]

Hi Lee,

Cubase & Genos  yea, I feel your pain. Been struggling with those two for a while.

For recording Genos to Cubase, I have tried to record directly into Cubase - following Thios videos on YouTube - but I never got it to fully worked. Sometimes it sounded fine, but other times I got some really weird results.

Nowadays I record the basic song foundation in Genos first (Style, instruments and effects).
Sometimes I use the chord step record feature and other time I do live recording, but I am not such a good live player, so when recording live, I'll have to do quite a lot of editing in Cubase.

After recording in Genos, I save the result as a midi file and import into Cubase and also turned midi local off on Genos to use it as a controller.
At first I still had some issues with the effects I used on the instrument tracks not being enabled when I played the file back in Cubase. It could be working from the beginning of the playback, but as soon as I stop the playback in Cubase, the effects turned off.

I later found out that there was a sy*** message that turned off the effect after I stopped the multi recorder in Genos. I thought I only needed to record a few seconds of the instruments I wanted to use, but then you will have to find the sy*** message that turn off the effect and it might not be so easy if you don't know where to look. So now when I record an instrument in Genos, I just let the multi recorder run until the song ends, so that I know I will get all the effects.

Even if there is a bit more work to do the initial recording in Genos and then import the midi file in Cubase, I feel that I get a better result this way. The result sounds exactly as it does when playing the style back on Genos. Also, using the Yamaha  musicsoft downloader app, makes is fast to transfer the midi file from Genos to my computer.

As for controlling VSTi instruments from Genos, I have only used basic functions like playback, using sing pitch bends and modulation. Unfortunately the Genos lacks transport buttons, like on the MOFX and other keyboards, so the option to control Cubase is limited and you might be better off using a dedicated controller, like the Steinberg CC121. 
I have heard that the new VST3 standard, support MIDI Learning for mapping MIDI CC to controller.  I have  not been experimenting with this though.

Best regards
/Jorgen

[ckobu]

Jorgen,

i know exactly what you are talking about, i have had the same experiences.
I now work exclusively with free Cakewalk and although there are some problems, working with Cakewalk is much more enjoyable. This is a video that shows this approach.
https://youtu.be/vjqUzC4DqnI

Sometimes I also use XGWorks, it better understands the Sy*** you mention.
There is still no Chord Sequencer in Genos, we can use Chord Looper as using the method. Like this.
https://youtu.be/-BljSgJEB6w

[Lee Batchelor]

Thanks, Jorgen and ckobu. I have had some success in the past few days using the Genos as a MIDI controller for VST instruments in Cubase. It is surprisingly easy. Here's what I do:

1.   Turn on the Genos and your sound module (Steinberg UR44 in my case).
2.   On the Genos, goto the MIDI page and set the Clock to USB1. My Genos is connected from the USB jack on the back of my Genos to a USB input directly on my computer.
3.   On the MIDI page, turn off all Local Control parts.
4.   Leave the Genos volume at zero or all the way off because you're not triggering internal sounds.
5.   Open Cubase.
6.   Set up a MIDI track with a VST instrument assigned.
7.   Make sure the MIDI input is set to All MIDI. Doing this gives you the ability to record any sound device connected to your sound module.
8.   Assign the MIDI output to Channel 1. For subsequent tracks, assign the MIDI output to Channels 2, 3, 4, and so on.
9.   Arm Channel 1 and record.

[fischnek]

Hello Guys,
there hasn't been a new post on this topic for a while. I started a few days ago to look into how to control VST instruments with the Genos sliding and rotary knobs. For example articulations.
Well, I think it works. I was able to use the Genos sliders to control the real-time articulation of a wind instrument in Kontakt, for example.
You can do this in the live control function, and you can even write out on the Genos LCD which parameter is controlled by which slider.
Settings can be saved in registration, so you can preset the control of any number of VSTs.

Maybe no one cares about that anymore. If you do, let me know and I'll describe how it works (I'm basically a MIDI analphabet).

cheers
fis

[Lee Batchelor]

Thanks for the additional info, fid. Please feel free to expand on this. Thanks...

- Lee

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Also Lee, Hi First!!!

You can also use the onboard sound device. Have your styles playing and have the upper half playing vst 's on Genos 2. That is great.
Since my other half Sandra has had her man cave built i have dug up part of the garden and laid a path and lots of other diy jobs.
My keyboard playing has been limited lately, but all at home is now almost finished and now just starting to get back to catching up.
All of that has done my back in lol

Once you hook up the Genos 2 with Cubase, using the onboard sound device is a breeze.
i have got Spectral Layers from Steinberg and now can put a song in Cubase, separate the wave file to separate parts and from there you can re-do parts of songs that you wished to be put right or remix. Before, if the midi file disappeared, there was nothing that you could do about it apart from going back to square one.
You can record midi from the Genos.
You can record instruments VST.
Put in wave files and record midi to wave.
You have chord pads in cubase for trying song ideas      "Sky is the limit"
All the Best
john


Ps  A fast Pc is the key in this modern age with plenty of ram and it is better to have a custom built machine just for music and maybe video.
Once you get what you pay for in quality the smoother the Pc experience is. This way you can future proof things a little longer.
I have learn't from the days of the Pentium 4 and low spec machines, That drove me Fruity Loops!!
I also have been mulling over the idea of a controller for VST like a native or Arturia.

[Lee Batchelor]

Hi John,

I haven't worked on any recordings for quite a while. Since Covid faded into the sunset, my stage time has taken over again. Sometimes I think about quitting some of the bands and concentrate more on recording. When that happens, I'll be picking your brain...so to speak . Stay well my friend...

[yogi62]

Hi Lee,

Just came across this thread and thought I'd offer some food for thought.

Personally, I would'nt attempt to make the Genos work as a surface controller. It may be worth you looking at a small controller such as the Korg nanoStudio which I use to control my Cubase. There are a number of 'nano' versions, all of which are small and take up very little desk space and provide all the sliders, knobs and transport functions you are are likely to want.

As to recording midi from the Genos. As I understand it the sy*** produced by the Genos is slightly different to the general standard and it can produce some odd effects on playback. The solution most people seem to prefer is to record the midi in the Geno and then save the file to a USB stick. Then import the midifile into cubase as a single track. Once in cubase go to the 'mid' menu along the top of the cubase screen and select the dissolve option. This will split the single midifile into seperate tracks.

If you want to use Halion VST's create a corresponding number of VST tracks and drag the separated midifile to each VST track you have created.

Regards
Mike

[Lee Batchelor]

Hi Mike,

Welcome aboard and thanks for chiming in.

I agree with you 100%. It's a nightmare recording the Genos to Cubase or any other DAW. Very few have figured it out. Your solution of recording a song inside the Genos, and then exporting/dissolving parts in Cubase is right on the money. With regards to recording the Genos directly to Cubase, Yamaha needs to acknowledge that this is basically impossible for 99% of Genos users. They need to REMOVE this implied method from their manual.

Besides all that, Genos 1 and 2 are so far behind the available VST voices and styles, that it's a waste of time recording those two keyboards. Fortunately, the Genos works well as a MIDI controller. When I reduce my stage time and concentrate more on recording, I'll purchase some excellent VST voices and drum patterns for recording. It would cost me about $5,000 to trade my Genos 1 for a Genos 2. From what I'm hearing, it's not worth it. I can buy the very best VSTs and drum programs for a fifth of that price and end up with far better sounds for recording.

Stay well, Mike...

- Lee

[Michael Trigoboff]

I have been able to record audio from my Genos1 and Genos2 into Cubase. It's a common part of my normal workflow.

(I suppose it helps being a PhD-level computer scientist with over 50 years of experience as a software developer. )

I don't do videos, but I'd be happy to try to help by answering questions.

[yogi62]

Hi Lee,

I totally agree regarding the quality of many VST's against the Genos voices, particularly the strings. However, I have a number of commercially purchsed Orchestral VST's that serve me well. Whilst Halion is has many good sounds I still prefer to use a number of 3rd party VST's.

Unless you are sensitive to the difference in quality of the sounds between the G1 and G2, the cost of upgrading, as in your case, would seem difficult to justify - albeit there are a number of other improvements besides the sounds. I was fortunate that I was able to upgrade my SX900 to a G2 (the shop had opened the box and could not sell as new) complete with a new set of GNS-MS01 speakers all for £2,900 - including free collection of my SX900 (which I originally bought for £1,645) and next day free delivery of my G2!!  Once registered Yamaha issued the 5 year guarantee - result!!

As  a side note, if I am recording only midi/VST's I tend to use my Nektar P6 which is my go to midi keyboard given it also acts as a Cubase controller and has a number of VST maps available.

all the best
Mike

[Lee Batchelor]

Hi Michael,

Thanks for chiming in. Yes, audio recording to Cubase from the Genos is "see Spot run" recording 🤣. I should have clarified that I'm talking about MIDI recording. That's a totally different problem. I few on this site have achieved some semblance of results but not without a lot of painful work. All the same, thanks for the offer to help. That is the great strength of this forum. There are so many experts, like yourself, who are willing to walk others through difficult procedures 👍.



Hi Mike,

That's a sweet deal you got on the G2. As always, one must ask, "What am I going to do with this wonderful tool?" I do mainly band and duet work, and the G1 still has lots of life in her. If the upgrade was around $2,000 or less, I would have done it but the world has gone crazy and prices have followed suit. When the stage becomes a bit too much, I intend to do more recording and VSTs are my first choice too. I have Halion in Cubase 10.5 Pro but I absolutely hate the interface. Steinberg makes things very complex and they prefer experts as their target audience. When software takes way more time to learn than the amount of time to lay down basic tracks, I quit.

But I digress...😀. Thanks...

[Michael Trigoboff]

I should have clarified that I'm talking about MIDI recording. That's a totally different problem. I few on this site have achieved some semblance of results but not without a lot of painful work. All the same, thanks for the offer to help. That is the great strength of this forum. There are so many experts, like yourself, who are willing to walk others through difficult procedures 👍.

MIDI is an entirely different thing. I can successfully record MIDI of myself playing lead directly into Cubase. But when I want to record what a style backup band is doing, I record the MIDI using the G2, transfer the MIDI file to my PC via USB stick, and import it into Cubase. Direct style MIDI recording from the G2 into Cubase doesn't work; what you get doesn't play back into the G2 and sound like the original. It's very mysterious.

I have gotten a lot of really valuable help around here, and I'm glad to return the favor when the opportunity presents itself.

[Lee Batchelor]

I share your experience, Michael. I've tried recording styles directly to Cubase. It works but on playback, you hear nothing but bells and noisy nonsense BUT  the engineers at Yamaha insist it can be done, according to their manual. Like yourself, I've recorded the style inside the Genos, imported the file to Cubase and dissolved the tracks. That works, but it is still too convoluted a process.

Once again, VSTs are the way to go. They easily outclass the voices on the Genos, with the possible exception of some SA2 voices. For example, the sax glisses on the Genos are stellar.

You wrote about recording wave files instead. Interesting. Cubase introduced a way of editing the pitch on vocal tracks. They convert the vocal track to MIDI (of sorts) and then users can edit the vocal track like a MIDI track. I wonder if they will eventually allow us to do that for all wave form tracks?

[Michael Trigoboff]

Once again, VSTs are the way to go. They easily outclass the voices on the Genos, with the possible exception of some SA2 voices. For example, the sax glisses on the Genos are stellar.

This makes me wonder if I made a mistake by getting a Genos and then a Genos2 instead of just a high end MIDI controller. Of course, then I wouldn't have all the styles.

You wrote about recording wave files instead. Interesting. Cubase introduced a way of editing the pitch on vocal tracks. They convert the vocal track to MIDI (of sorts) and then users can edit the vocal track like a MIDI track. I wonder if they will eventually allow us to do that for all wave form tracks?

I think you mean VariAudio. It only looks like MIDI in the user interface. I use it frequently to pitch correct my singing, which is consistently a half-tone off in a random direction.

Who knows what the future will bring? I'm working hard to stick around to see as much of it as I can...

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Well Mike-----------


The Genos 2 is fantastic at what it does and the Styles are worth a million
I have just invested in Aturia 49 full sized keyboard controller and it does everything that the Genos cannot do.
Genos with the Arturia controller puts you in a commanding position like a 69er.
Arturia software synths are a blast and the controller is perfect with them.
This will give you more than Rick wakeman can throw at this.
It controls korg software and loads of  3rd party ones
It Arpeggiate, make sequences etc and wit 9 knobs and 9 sliders it all maps in Cubase.
It is crazy for a full sized key Controller,so use Genos styles in Cubase and use software to make quality songs.
Sky is the limit and all you need is imagination and for me at 73 i have to do that all the time
The big swinger  is the Arturia 49 key cost £166  or £200 for the next size up.
If you have great sound box and monitors the universe is in your grasp