IK Multimedia B-3X, and Genos

[jimlaing]

Hi... I didn't see a thread on this particular topic, so hopefully I'm not duplicating something else someone already wrote.  I've been experimenting with the IK Multimedia Hammond app for iPad, called B-3X.  It is an awesome sounding Hammond organ app!  One thing I noticed is that when I engage the Leslie (they simulate real Leslie speakers) on IK's app, it sounds great.  When I use the "Real Rotary" effect on Genos, it does not sound anywhere near as good.  Mainly, the real Hammond with Leslie is slower than the default settings for Genos "Real Rotary", and the real stuff is a bit "deeper" in its effect than the default settings for "Real Rotary".  And the 'character' of the Leslie effect is just quite different in ways that I can't describe (IK's app vs. Genos Real Rotary).

I'm using this setup to create my own Real Rotary settings that (I hope) will more closely mimic what Hammond sanctions as a real Hammond with a real Leslie, given that the IK app is 'sanctioned' by the actual Hammond company.

As much as I've enjoyed Yamaha arranger workstation keyboards, one weakness I feel they have is in the Hammond/Drawbar/B3 area; they sound "OK" but not up-to-par with some better drawbar/B3 emulations out there.

Jim

[Ashtangakasha]

I agree. I frequently need a smooth transition from fast or slow OFF. Yamaha programmers just don't seem to be into full control of a B3.

Allen

[pjd]

Hi Jim --

This subject comes up from time to time.

The mid- to high-end arranger keyboards share the same effect algorithms with Montage/MODX. So, I swap parameters between Genos and MODX. For reasons that I cannot recall (!), I gave up on the REAL ROTARY effect. For one thing, the REAL ROTARY effect is missing two parameters:

17 Slow-Fast Time of Rotor
18 Fast-Slow Time of Rotor

which are supported on Montage/MODX. The Genos, etc. software is limited to 16 effect parameters -- something which Yamaha still haven't fixed. 

I've participated in a few Yamaha marketing interviews with Yamaha synth folks. I always bring up the lame state of rotary speaker emulation. The synth people face stiff competition from Nord, etc., yet they seemingly do nothing! Yes, I'm frustrated.

One or two synth guys admitted that Yamaha Japan consistently sets the factory Leslie speeds too high. The Reface YC is a case in point. I can't stand the high setting on the YC and now avoid it like the plague. At least the YC overdrive works correctly -- another thing that Yamaha need to fix. 

So, these are the settings that I use on both the MODX and Genos:

Genos: ROTARY SPEAKER1
MODX:  ROTARY SPEAKER1

    Woofer Speed Slow           40.2rpm     0.67Hz
    Horn Speed Slow             48.0rpm     0.80Hz
    Woofer Speed Fast           333.0rpm    5.55Hz
    Horn Speed Fast             363.6rpm    6.06Hz
    Slow-Fast Time of Woofer    47
    Slow-Fast Time of Horn      20
    Drive Low                   17
    Drive High                  42
    Low/High Balance            L=H
    EQ Low Frequency            100Hz
    EQ Low Gain                 -2dB
    EQ High Frequency           14kHz
    EQ High Gain                -12dB
    Mic L-R Angle               162deg

Even tho' the rotary settings are the same, the Genos sounds brighter in A/B tests. The MODX rotary effect feeds the MODX VCM EQ 501 equalizer. I try to mimic the equalization in the ROTARY SPEAKER1 settings.

Don't look for the VCM EQ 501 on Genos -- Yamaha didn't give it to us. The Montage/MODX have some additional effects over Genos and vice versa.

My comments may or may not help. I've been tempted by the Mini Vent many a time, but always find some other way to spend money -- like new tires. 

Good luck with your exploration -- pj

[Amxf5]

Thanks for those settings PJ. I just tried them, I have never changed effects settings before, so how do I save it to memory,and can it be made the same for all organs?

[markstyles]

Yeah the IK modeled B3 is very good.  There other modeled instruments are quite good too.  The GENOS organ is usually OK if in a mix.  But in reality nothing beats a real Hammond B3 going thru a REAL Leslie, Not just because of the rotating horn and bass, but because the sound generated is bounced off walls, and that sound mixes in with sound you hear.   If there ever was any sound relegated to the term 'Ear Candy" it is the Leslie speeding up and slowing down..  But I DO NOT miss those days of lugging that beast up/down a flight of stairs.

[jimlaing]

Re: saving effects settings ... I'm not at my Genos, so this is approximate: when you are editing the parameters for Real Rotary (or any effect), in the lower, left corner of the screen is a little "save" icon (a disk drive with arrow).  Press this, then name the Preset with a good name (I usually include my initials so I know it's something I've customized).  So, mine is "REAL ROTARY JL" or similar.

To use for other organs, i.e. in other Registrations, I believe you need to edit each such Registration to use your new Effect.  I have not done this yet, but will eventually go in and modify a bunch of Registrations that use organ... those that I deem "worth" having the slightly better, customized version of Real Rotary that I created.

Hope this helps,
jim

[pjd]

Thanks for those settings PJ. I just tried them, I have never changed effects settings before, so how do I save it to memory,and can it be made the same for all organs?

Hi --

I save the settings as a USER effect: Genos Reference Manual, page 128. It's just as easy as Jim described it. Then, when I create registration (or whatever), I use the saved USER effect instead of a Yamaha factory preset.

By the way, those settings are just a starting point. Feel free to tweak away! Every now and again, I feel like things could be even slower -- like a Leslie with really bad belts and pulleys. 


Hope this helps -- pj

[Bachus]

Ik multimedia has a tendency of releasing their apps extremelyhigh priced €109 ..
It would be wise to wait for the several expected price drops.
In a few months this app will only cost €20..

So far thats allways been the case with ik multimedia apps..

The app still falls short compared to several other emulations on pc..

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi
You cannot beat their effect generators, Syntronic and sampletank 4. also the rotary's are good
Great to have in your arsenal and yes wait for group buys.
Even the old synths work in Sampletank 4.
All great in Cubase 10.5

Also for extra sound packs,  steer clear of the Yamaha overpriced ones. Easysounds are far better and cheaper. Again wait for the discounts.

all the best
john

[Lee Batchelor]

Doesn't the rotary effect (good or bad) work best when the Genos is hooked up in stereo, not mono? Same with the piano and most other voices. I say this because some players use their Genos with a single Bose or another similar speaker. I agree in the mix with a band or the Genos itself, the B3 isn't bad, but for solo right-hand work ...

Yamaha could give us great B3 organs and more than 16 effects but they just don't want to have two synthesizers in their product line !

[Hammond Yamaha]

The Real Rotary effect on the Genos reminds me of the rotors of a helicopter.  It is not good at all.
I run it in stereo through 2 Bose L1 compacts and that is the best description I can give it.
Frank

[Lee Batchelor]

Me too, Frank. It sounds sort of okay in a mix but by itself, well you know...

[Colin D]

I've tried saving Leslie FAST & SLOW to the registration buttons.  It don't work.  However if you open the leslie control feature it does move the fast/slow lever.  But the sound don't change.  It's a pain

[Hammond Yamaha]

Niceonetidy;
Here is how I save fast/ slow rotary in a registration and it works for me.
I have a pedal to operate the fast. Slow.
When setting up your registration, go to utility. When the page opens, chose assignable and assign which ever pedal you want to fast / slow rotary.  Then when you save your registration it will be included.

Frank
Ps I also set my mike and harmony in registrations as well.

[Lee Batchelor]

Niceonetidy;
Here is how I save fast/ slow rotary in a registration and it works for me.
I have a pedal to operate the fast. Slow.
When setting up your registration, go to utility. When the page opens, chose assignable and assign which ever pedal you want to fast / slow rotary.  Then when you save your registration it will be included.

Frank
Ps I also set my mike and harmony in registrations as well.

This is correct. I did the same thing except I edited the Leslie settings first. The rotary speed now has a slower acceleration rate, just like the real thing. I have no idea why a company as brilliant as Yamaha thinks that a Leslie speaker is "instant on" and "instant off!" In the real world, that would burn out the motor and likely rip the horn from its mountings!!

[Colin D]

Lee,

Thank you all. What settings do you use for the rotary please,

Kind regards

Colin

[Lee Batchelor]

Hi Colin,

My Genos is packed for a show. Next time it's open at home, I'll check for you. It will be soon. Thanks...

[StuartR]

Hi... I didn't see a thread on this particular topic, so hopefully I'm not duplicating something else someone already wrote.  I've been experimenting with the IK Multimedia Hammond app for iPad, called B-3X.  It is an awesome sounding Hammond organ app!  One thing I noticed is that when I engage the Leslie (they simulate real Leslie speakers) on IK's app, it sounds great.  When I use the "Real Rotary" effect on Genos, it does not sound anywhere near as good.  Mainly, the real Hammond with Leslie is slower than the default settings for Genos "Real Rotary", and the real stuff is a bit "deeper" in its effect than the default settings for "Real Rotary".  And the 'character' of the Leslie effect is just quite different in ways that I can't describe (IK's app vs. Genos Real Rotary).

I'm using this setup to create my own Real Rotary settings that (I hope) will more closely mimic what Hammond sanctions as a real Hammond with a real Leslie, given that the IK app is 'sanctioned' by the actual Hammond company.

As much as I've enjoyed Yamaha arranger workstation keyboards, one weakness I feel they have is in the Hammond/Drawbar/B3 area; they sound "OK" but not up-to-par with some better drawbar/B3 emulations out there.

Jim

There is a thread on this Hammond app already but it hasn't gotten much attention. I've been experimenting with it as well, using an external midi keyboard controller.

I haven't found a way to play it via midi using the Genos as a controller without triggering an internal Genos sound along with it. Perhaps I've overlooked the obvious here?

[Bachus]

There is a thread on this Hammond app already but it hasn't gotten much attention. I've been experimenting with it as well, using an external midi keyboard controller.

I haven't found a way to play it via midi using the Genos as a controller without triggering an internal Genos sound along with it. Perhaps I've overlooked the obvious here?

On Genos there is a voice named init (i beleive its called, not behind my keys) there is no sound attached to this voice..
I have added it to my favorites... use it a lot in combination with my ipad

[StuartR]

On Genos there is a voice named init (i beleive its called, not behind my keys) there is no sound attached to this voice..
I have added it to my favorites... use it a lot in combination with my ipad

Thanks, I knew there must be a way!

Stuart.

[StuartR]

Any idea how to access this Init voice?

[StuartR]

I'm thinking I'd need to create this in YEM and load it into my Genos?

[soryt]

Can the Genos sliders control the  drawbars on the B3 app ?
than we have a dream option   

Soneg 

[Colin D]

The Genos is an expensive keyboard.  In my opinion the Organ sounds are never too good.  It should be, the early organ sounds have been around for years.  They should be easy to re-create with the Genos,

[voodoo]

There is a thread on this Hammond app already but it hasn't gotten much attention. I've been experimenting with it as well, using an external midi keyboard controller.

I haven't found a way to play it via midi using the Genos as a controller without triggering an internal Genos sound along with it. Perhaps I've overlooked the obvious here?

Hi Stuart,

I have put the first thread in the Genos+iPad section, where it has been overseen.

The simplest way to mute the internal sound is to use the setting "local off". It is part of the midi setup and it is made just for this case: mute internal sound when playing external.

I have routed my Right 3 Part to external midi port and set Right 3 to "local off". Then we can use all controls and sliders for the external device:

  * volume slider (cc7) controls overall volume of B-3X
  * volume pedal (cc11) controls organ volume before effect, so you can ciontrol depth of overdrive (like for a real B3)
  * sustain pedal (cc64) or modulation stick (cc1) can be used to change rotary speed

Many other controls like pan, reverb, chorus etc. can be used to control any parameter on the iPad just by midi learn.

When I have time I will search a possible configuration for the 9 sliders to control the draw bars of the B-3X. I think it is possible.

Uli

[StuartR]

Hi Stuart,

I have put the first thread in the Genos+iPad section, where it has been overseen.

The simplest way to mute the internal sound is to use the setting "local off". It is part of the midi setup and it is made just for this case: mute internal sound when playing external.

I have routed my Right 3 Part to external midi port and set Right 3 to "local off". Then we can use all controls and sliders for the external device:

  * volume slider (cc7) controls overall volume of B-3X
  * volume pedal (cc11) controls organ volume before effect, so you can ciontrol depth of overdrive (like for a real B3)
  * sustain pedal (cc64) or modulation stick (cc1) can be used to change rotary speed

Many other controls like pan, reverb, chorus etc. can be used to control any parameter on the iPad just by midi learn.

When I have time I will search a possible configuration for the 9 sliders to control the draw bars of the B-3X. I think it is possible.

Uli

Bravo.... thank you Uli, I'll give this a try!

Stuart.

[Lee Batchelor]

Colin and other folks...here are the settings I use for my Rotary Leslie on the Genos.


[attachment deleted by admin]

[Colin D]

Lee,

Thank you for the settings.  I will try these later when I'm home from work,

Kind Regards

Colin,

[voodoo]

Hi all,

as promised, I have found a configuration that works for controlling the B-3X draw bars using the Genos live control sliders.

Use the following assignments for the Genos live control sliders.
I use Slider Assign Type 2. These are free, when you don't need them for midi songs.
Apply them to the part "Right 3", so you can use Right 1 and 2 as usual.
Save the settings to a registry to recall them as needed.

* Slider 1 -> Voice Edit / Modulation + (cc 1)
* Slider 2 -> Mixer / Panorama (cc 10)
* Slider 3 -> Voice Edit / Modulation - (cc 16)
* Slider 4 -> Mixer / Resonance (cc 71)
* Slider 5 -> Voice Edit / Release (cc 72)
* Slider 6 -> Voice Edit / Attack (cc 73)
* Slider 7 -> Mixer / Cutoff (cc 74)
* Slider 8 -> Mixer / Reverb (cc 91)
* Slider 9 -> Mixer / Chorus (cc 93)

Use the following assignment for the pedals (should be the default):

* Pedal 1 -> Voice / Volume (cc 11) (in fact, it is Expression)
* Pedal 3 -> Voice / Sustain (cc 64)

Then in B-3X, assign the drawbars to the CC numbers 1, 10, 16, 71, 72, 73, 74, 91, 93 or use midi learn.
Set them to "Inv" to get the correct slider direction.
Assign Expression to CC 11 (should be the default) and Leslie Slow/fast to CC 64 with option Latch.

Now you are ready to play the B-3X from Genos including draw bars and leslie speed switch.
Set Right 3 to local off to mute the Genos sound for Right 3.
Use the regular slider for Right 3 Volume (cc 7) in the Balance Assign Type to control the overall volume of the B-3X.

I use a regular USB printer cable with the USB-lightning-Adapter (camera connection kit) to attach the iPad to the Genos.
The headphones out from the iPad can go to the Genos Aux in, or directly to the audio mixer console.

That's it. Have fun.

Uli

P.S.: Try to activate the Overscream Stomp in the Stomps section in B-3X. It makes a beast even out of the standard preset sound.
Put this function to a third Genos Pedal (use sostenuto (cc 66) or soft (cc 67) assignment) to fire it in whenever you need it
(On Genos, assign Pedal 2 to Voice/Sostenuto and on B-3X, assign "Overscream On" to CC 66 with option Latch.)

[StuartR]

Hi Stuart,

I have put the first thread in the Genos+iPad section, where it has been overseen.

The simplest way to mute the internal sound is to use the setting "local off". It is part of the midi setup and it is made just for this case: mute internal sound when playing external.

I have routed my Right 3 Part to external midi port and set Right 3 to "local off". Then we can use all controls and sliders for the external device:

  * volume slider (cc7) controls overall volume of B-3X
  * volume pedal (cc11) controls organ volume before effect, so you can ciontrol depth of overdrive (like for a real B3)
  * sustain pedal (cc64) or modulation stick (cc1) can be used to change rotary speed

Many other controls like pan, reverb, chorus etc. can be used to control any parameter on the iPad just by midi learn.

When I have time I will search a possible configuration for the 9 sliders to control the draw bars of the B-3X. I think it is possible.

Uli

After getting all this set up and saved to a custom setting in the MIDI configuration, I find that these MIDI user settings don't seem to be able to be saved in registration memories. Without this ability you can't easily switch setups that require different MIDI routings during live performances. Surely (once again) I'm missing something?