CVP vs Tyros/Genos

[Nocturne64]

Hello, I'm evaluating to replace my old piano with a new Clavinova CVP series, because I need internal arranger section. I do not know which piano yet, probably I will wait when new 800 series will be released. But I would like heard your opinion about arranger sections compared with top Yamaha arrangers like Tyros5 or Genos. I believe voices are similar (they are so good in CVPs I tried), but what about additional features? Is there something you can do with arrangers keyboard and not with Clavinovas? All possible advices are greatly appreciated. Thank you

[Gill]

Looks like you don't have any responses yet, so I will offer one.

I have had a Tyros5-76 since they came out.  Really enjoyed it.  Lusted after the Genos when it came out, but held off.  Was waiting to see what the new Clavinova would look like.   Recently bought a used CVP-709 at what I think was a good price.  Really enjoy it as well.  I am selling the Tyros5.  So that's my vote.  Here are the main reasons why.

Love the touch screen on Clavinova (though the interface is not perfect, of course).  Love the sound system.  (Just never could get the audio from the Tyros to sound right.  I have the Tyros speakers and have tried larger/different speakers to no avail.  Just have not been able to get the full sound I wanted in my relatively small music room.)  And I do like playing on something that feels more like a real piano, though I have played an organ or keyboard with plastic keys most of my life, rather than a piano.  I thought I would miss the big hard drive, but a USB stick works just fine, even with thousands of style files.

Miss the Multi-pads, but really never used them much.  Miss the third right voice, but not all that much.  Miss the awesome style packs and voices that are available for Tyros and not so much for Clavinova.  Hate that I can't transfer my purchases to the Clavinova.  Fortunately, there are enough free styles available that I will never be able to play them all in my lifetime.

I'm not a professional musician.  I play only for my own entertainment. I'm a "melody and chords" player.  I almost never do any multi-track recording or editing.  I love these instruments because they can make a mediocre player like me sound like I know how to play.

Can't say which is better for your needs.  I enjoy them both, but since the Clavinova came in the house, I have only played the Tyros a few times.

From what I have read so far (not much), it does not look like the new Clavinova is much of an upgrade, so I will stay with the 709 for a while.

Oh, and I briefly owned a CVP-307, which I also enjoyed.  Even an older Clavinova like this plays and sounds great.  Playing it motivated me to go ahead and spend the extra bucks on the 709.

Hope this was helpful to you.  I imagine this will prompt some others to chime in with other opinions, too.

[jwyvern]

Nocturne,
Did you look back on your previous thread? There may be extra later info that you did not see.

John

[Nocturne64]

Thank you for your reply. Yes I got other replies in a similar thread I opened in Keyboard section, as I got no reply here last week. I'm convincing you (and other users) are right, Clavinova is better than any arranger keyboard, and surely the best choice for me, better than Genos. I'm a pianist, so I want to play always on a good keyboard, also during "light" playing with arranger features. No matter if some features are lost compared to Genos. Also, I watched demo videos about new CVP809, and main voices look amazing. I will take my final decision after this summer. Thank you again.

[Gill]

Consider carefully the differences in a CVP-709 vs 809.  Given the large apparent price increase, you can probably buy a lightly used 709 for half the price of a new 809.  Watch and listen to some of the 709 videos.  Based on the information on the 809 released so far, I'm just not seeing the difference between the two.  That is subject to change, of course, as we find out more information on the 809.

If you are in the US, you might try Facebook Marketplace.  I have had good luck buying and selling Clavinovas and other items there.  No fees, and I have not had any problems (yet) with weird buyers/sellers.  Even if you have to drive a few hundred miles, it is worth it to save thousands of dollars.

Good luck in your quest.  Would be interested to hear what you decide and why.

[mikf]

I had look at several of the videos on the new CVP 800 series, and I had the impression there are feature and sound upgrades from the 700 series, including the main piano voice. That is not to say though that they will or will not be important to an individual player. there was not a lot between the 600 series and 700 series. I have a 605 and a 705 and there are only two differences which matter to me - the addition of the Bosendorfer voice sample, and the fancy piano room feature with instant accompaniment. 
I think what is important before finalizing anything is to try the -05 and the -09 models side by side. Doesn't matter if it is the 705 and 709, 605 and 609 or 805 and 809, because the only difference is the same in all - the key action. When I bought the 705 I tried the 709 right alongside it, and I thought the difference minimal, but the price hike was huge.
I think nocturne is in the UK going by his local time, which is the same as mine.
Nearly all the decent piano shops in the UK have CVPs in the showroom, and every major town has at least one piano store.   
Mike

[Nemydom]

Looking for some clarification around comparison of CVP's sound quality within the same generation.

If we compare the line level output of CVP-705 vs CVP-709, do the same voices/styles sound 100% identical? Just leave alone the audio styles - I don't care. Also, I understand that the styles can sound a bit different, as there are more megavoices on the 709. That's understandable. I am asking ONLY about identical voices, and the styles with identical tracks and voices.

My understanding, CVP-609 sounds on the same level as the Tyros 4, but what about CVP-605? Is it the same, or it's more like psr-s950?
What about CVP-705 vs CVP-709? Is it like PSR-s970 vs Tyros 5? Or 705 is more like Tyros with lower specs? Less voices, less styles etc.

I do know, that CVP-*09 has more sounds in it, more SA, megavoices etc and more styles. Also, it has better acoustic, and better specs. That's not the point. I only interested in comparing identical voices (all voices, from piano to drums) through the line output.

I would really appreciate your help, as it's extremely difficult to find this kind of info regarding Clavinovas.
I owned several Tyros models and several PSR-s9**. I can easily hear the difference in between identical voices of Tyros VS PSR-s9** within the same generation. Also, I would even prefer to use older Tyros to any psr-s. E.g., I prefer TYros 3 to psr-s950
Now, I am thinking of getting CVP-705, but the question as i mentioned before, is: Will I be able to get TYros-like sound from it? or it is more Psr-s sound?

Sorry for so many words, but I was so disappointing to see that many comparison of those clavinovas, where people only compare the specs.. whats the point to do that? I can read the manual myself!  As we all know, the difference in sound quality of different Yamaha instruments is never documented.
Many thanks

[mikf]

The 705 and 709 are essentially the same instrument with a different keyboard, and slightly different look. So only feel and look change but not sound or voice quality.  See my comments previously, I didn't think the slightly improved feel from the keyboard warranted the huge price hike.
It's not really correct to think of the CVP as an 88 key Tyros in a piano case. There are differences, although I don't think sound quality is one of them. And the differences go in both directions. The CVP has no multi pads or pitch bend wheel, the Tyros has no piano room feature and of course a light feel smaller keyboard. They are both top of the line and overlay a lot of features, but designed for quite different needs.
Mike

[Nemydom]

It's not really correct to think of the CVP as an 88 key Tyros in a piano case.

Thanks Mike. I never thought of the CVP as a replacement for Tyros. I appreciate your response, but if someone else could confirm Mike's opinion, it would be great.
I do need some kind of assurance, that CVP-705 use exactly the same (quality)  samples/waveforms as CVP-709. Also, if the D/A converters and the audio circuit(excl power amp and speakers) are exactly the same as on CVP-709
For some reason the majority A vs B discussions are limited to documented specs which is not the subject of my question.

[mikf]

I do need some kind of assurance, that CVP-705 use exactly the same  samples/waveforms.

I am not sure that it's possible to get this information, because I doubt that Yamaha publishes details on every voice sample. It would surprise me if most of the samples in the CVP were not the same as Tyros, although I suspect the piano sample may be better in the CVP. I don't think the Bosendorfer sample even existed in the T5. So doubt anyone is in a position to answer your question, except based on their ears. Certainly there are no simple equivalencies published  - like the 609 is a T4 and the 709 is a T5, the 705 is a PSR 950 etc. people make these kind of assumptions, but I don't think it's accurate.
But good luck with your search for the the info.
Mike
Mike

[Nemydom]

I am not sure that it's possible to get this information, because I doubt that Yamaha publishes details on every voice sample. It would surprise me if most of the samples in the CVP were not the same as Tyros, although I suspect the piano sample may be better in the CVP. I don't think the Bosendorfer sample even existed in the T5. So doubt anyone is in a position to answer your question, except based on their ears. Certainly there are no simple equivalencies published  - like the 609 is a T4 and the 709 is a T5, the 705 is a PSR 950 etc. people make these kind of assumptions, but I don't think it's accurate.

I do realize that, thanks. Yamaha never ever discloses this kind of info. They even not keen to comment on the sound quality within one generation. Which is not fair, of cause.. never mind, it's their disgusting marketing policy... May be some people involved in service centers could help regarding the converts, circuits etc.  Although, "based on ears" opinion would be the most valuable and very helpful. I already have your one, Mike, thanks.
At the same time, I know that comparing instruments in a shop, for an hour or so, is not sufficient to make an appropriate conclusion.
An example of this would be comparing drums on MOTIF XS-XF vs Tyros2-3. A kit with the same name may sound absolutely identical, but behave differently in a mix (own experience)
Another reason of my concern is the fact, that Yamaha mentioned so many times that their "MOTL model X 'has the sounds from' TOTL model Y". They used to use this expression so often, especially for marketing their MO line. In fact, the sound on the MOTL, say MOX was just unacceptable in comparison to the corresponding TOTL model.  Hopefully, that's not a case with CVP-705 vs CVP-709

[beykock]

@Nocturne64 :

Hopefully you will find what you need.

CVP's are expensive and are no real arranger keyboards.

It is a personal choice one makes. 🐰

Good luck ! Babette

[mikf]

All arrangers have pros and cons, even the most expensive. But the CVP705  is certainly a real arranger, it has all the features you would normally expect on a top of the line arranger.
Mike

[beykock]

Except Yamaha.
Yamaha's arrangers have no cons only pros.☝

Babette

[jwyvern]

All arrangers have pros and cons, even the most expensive. But the CVP705  is certainly a real arranger, it has all the features you would normally expect on a top of the line arranger.
Mike

Hi Mike
I would normally expect a "TOTL" arranger to have at least 3x RH voices for layering in live play, aftertouch for adding to the sound quality via playing technique and SA2 voices, (which are not present on a CVP so voices cannot be identical). Plus other features missing and mentioned elsewhere.
It might be more descriptive as far as the Arranger side is concerned to say the CVP has the features of a top line PSR arranger (although even in that case, not all of them). Sound reproduction of course is in a different class.
John

[mikf]

It might be more descriptive as far as the Arranger side is concerned to say the CVP has the features of a top line PSR arranger (although even in that case, not all of them).

John
I think that is a fair description.
My point is that all competing models have different features, to appeal to different market segments. These features may or may not matter to different people, but mostly they do not define 'a real arranger'. I see it like this, I love the heated front seats in my car and would hate to be without them on a cold winter morning, to the point where i might not buy a car without them, but I don't think I would define my neighbor's Ferrari as not a 'real car' if it doesn't have heated front seats. 
Mike

[beykock]

Well said, Mike !👍
You may call the Yamaha CVP a Ferrari Piano, I guess ?😁

Babette

[EileenL]

Most CVP's will have the same samples as on Yamaha keyboards but the sound system is totally different coming through there speakers so gives a better sound all round. I think we have to remember also that these instruments are designed on the side of Pianists that want the feel and sound of a real piano. They would never want to use Multi Pads and probably find two right hand voices sufficient for there needs. Although they would never be classed as arranger piano's there is quite a lot you can do on them. The 800 series will probably be based on Genos for its styles and many voices.