What keyboard would you recommend to me?

[3dc]

As I told in my introduction I am a complete beginner in music but I am eager to learn so I am looking for music tools that will grow with my learning process. Eventually I am hoping to make some serious film score for 3d animation and PC games. So its quite important for me that I have a solid KEYBOARD to PC workflow and plenty of high quality instruments from start. I picked Cockos Reaper and Audacity as my basic DAWs and now I am looking something from Yamaha PSR family for a (professional) keyboard.

Right now I can get a really good deal for YAMAHA PSR-S670 but I am not sure if its a good long term fit for me. I can save for month or two and get PSR-S775 but it looks to me as a slight overkill for a complete newbie. Or should I go with the cheapest PSR-E363? I must say that I really like the S670 but I am worried its already outdated. I read in other forums its not really a professional keyboard since it lacks some key features for serious music production. Also I don't see many resources and YT videos for this particular keyboard.

The other options are proper synthesizer workstations but as a beginner I am "flying blind" about them. Korg Kross 2-61, Roland Juno-DS 61 and Yamaha MX61 V2 Black are in my immediate reach while I would have to wait for some months for Yamaha MX88 and Yamaha MODX6.

So many choices.... What would you recommend for me?

Thanks in advance for help!

[Graham UK]

3dc. Check my T2 For Sale. It would serve your requirements at a low cost.

[EileenL]

I think you would be better with the 770 or 775 as these are latter keyboards and will allow you to do a little more.

[ekurburski]

I know this is the PSR forums and truthfully any psr model from 670 up will do you fine.  However I did not see any mention of your planning on playing gigs live so I would recommend a different direction completely.  I would go with a keyboard controller and software like Band-in-a-Box.  Different VST's will give you a much larger choice of instrument at low cost.  In a decent computer you can have a complete studio for less than you woul have in a PSR S975.  I have a dx7 clone, software versions of the m1, poly 61 and on and on.  I'm looking at getting a steel guitar vst for my country tunes that sounds better than any of the steel players in my area. for only $150.00.  There is a learning curve required but then so is there with 3d

[DerekA]

I agree with ekurbuski. This is a generalisation but ...

Arrangers are designed for sitting and playing songs.

Synths are designed for making unusual sounds or as part of a live group performance.

Creating complex scores is best done with a computer, vst, and midi controller keyboard. You can get started with any basic hardware and lots of free software.

[mikf]

A complete beginner but plans to make serious film score?.?
I don't think you are being realistic. Just get almost any keyboard and start learning, learning to play keyboard even at a very basic level is no trivial thing. Composing film score is light years off and  believe me you will have a LOT of time to decide on a future keyboard to meet your long term ambitions.
Mike

[robinez]

based on your requirement and goals (creating / composing film music), a keyboard is not a good choice. Just use a Computer based DAW solution for that. It's much more convenient and the results will be much better then with a keyboard.

A good starter point will be:
- a DAW (reaper is ok to start with)
- Native Instruments Komplete keyboard (you get some free VST synths with it to start with)
- VST: Spectrasonics Omnisphere (a must when you create film music)
- a Free subscription on loopcloud.net to get 150 free wav samples from the loopmasters collection every week.

The price of this will be more or less the same as a professional keyboard, but you can do so much more and you can find lots of tutorials on youtube to get you started with such a setup.

Keyboards are indeed more suitable for people that just want to sit and play their tunes, they are less suited for creating film music with lots of details in the sound scapes.

[Robert van Weersch]

I agree with the others. If you want to make scores, you'd be better off with a sequencer, a bunch of VST's and a decent master keyboard (just for MIDI etc.). You can start very cheap, because there are very good free / open source sequencers, like LMMS. VST's are also available in free or cheap price ranges. A nice Nektar USB/MIDI keyboard can be obtained for less than EUR 100 (or around $110 in the US). The only thing you need is a not too old PC, but anything with a dual-core CPU, 8 GB RAM and preferably an SSD will do and can manage at least 16 not to heavy VST tracks. Onboard sound can handle 48 kHz / 16 bits without a problem, sometimes even better, but you can have a very good low latency USB audio interface for less than EUR 100.
So starting to create your own scores can be done with very little resources.

[3dc]

Hi guys,

I have to clarify that I am disabled so any live gigs unfortunately are not for me but I will not mid a gig here and there for my soul and maybe for my close friends in the future. This is why I am looking specifically in Yamaha PSR range of keyboards. I am eventually ( like in one or two years from now ) planing to compose really simple music for PC games and animations not some classical masterpieces. I am pretty confident I can make it to that level but preferably with nice Yamaha keyboard I can purchase and play right now. If there is no fun there is no motivation. 

Finally I am aware of DAW and MIDI keyboard workflow but I am looking for a nice but quite capable "hybrid" between two worlds, you know when the PC is completely off and you just want to play music...   

So my questions are:
1. Is Yamaha PSR-S670 outdated in your expert view?
2. Is Yamaha PSR-S670 capable of relatively simple music creation trough USB with my DAW ( Reaper & Audacity ) of choice?
3. I was under impression that S670 has a built in simple sequencer. Am I wrong? 

As you can see my focus is on PSR-S670 as it is advertised as affordable entry level workstation and arranger. Is workstation part just a marketing trick for PSR-S670?


Sorry for confusion. Thank you all for your kind help and input.

[EileenL]

You can certainly record on the 670 and multi track in midi as you can on most Yamaha keyboards.

[Robert van Weersch]

1. Is Yamaha PSR-S670 outdated in your expert view?
2. Is Yamaha PSR-S670 capable of relatively simple music creation trough USB with my DAW ( Reaper & Audacity ) of choice?
3. I was under impression that S670 has a built in simple sequencer. Am I wrong? 

(...) [4] Is workstation part just a marketing trick for PSR-S670?

1. No, it is a very nice keyboard.
2. It can output its sound through USB.
3. Correct. But almost any (even free) sequencer on the PC will offer way more userfriendlyness and flexibility. The sequencer on the keyboard is relatively simpel and quite cumbersome to use.
4. Yes, it is more ore less marketing. "Workstation" is not a hard definition.

[mikf]

Any of the PSRs will provide with more than you can cope with for a long time to come.
Again, I don't want to be rude, or appear very negative, but so often I have seen adults buy these supposedly easy to play keyboards thinking they will be producing great music in a few months. Then they discover even these keyboards are not that easy and the keyboard ends up in a cupboard.
Having realistic goals is important. Talking about gigs or composing scores is out of sight, maybe inside a year with some lessons you could be reading lead sheets and playing simple music that will be good enough for your own private enjoyment. You will still sound like a beginner, but be on your way.
Some people with a strong music background on other instruments may progress quicker, but for complete beginners thats a decent achievable goal.
Mike

[DerekA]

S770 is a better choice than s670. It has a better screen, more expansion memory, and has the step edit function on the sequencer.

[andyg]

As Mikf said earlier in this thread, 'complete beginner' and 'serious film scores' do not go together easily.

I've been teaching for 30+ years, and I'm the last person to pour cold water on anyone's ambitions but I have to tell you that nothing comes for free. If you want to be able to compose serious film scores you're going to have to put in a few years (possibly more than a few) of hard work first. Just buying an arranger, a computer and a couple of DAWs will let a relative beginner make music, sure,  but it's not likely to be that good or 'serious'. Band in a Box is great for producing some backing tracks,  but that's using someone else's work, not your own. I only use BIAB to get templates or starting points.

If you're truly serious about making serious music, then first learn to play piano or keyboard properly. Study Music Theory to Grade 5 (UK standard) to cover the basics, then up to Grade 6 or 7 to understand more about creating music. Study orchestration (there's a brilliant book by Paul Gilreath called 'The Guide To MIDI Orchestration' - expensive. but worth it) so that you understand what your virtual musicians can do.

You can use a keyboard, BIAB, a DAW and other 'virtual' instruments to produce some great work, but only if you have the skills to work with them. There is a lot of c**p out there, pretending to be good, well orchestrated music, so tell yourself that you want to be better than that!

As for keyboards, forget the 670. Go for a used keyboard and save a fortune. If you want a Yamaha arranger, go for one that starts PSR-S9xx. There is a good reason why they are maybe 50% more expensive than the 7xx series and they are light years ahead of the 670.

Of course, if you're going to work extensively with computers to make music - and everyone in the serious side of the business does (before they start paying for real orchestras to play and record their work!) you might not need an arranger keyboard at all. A controller plus lots of virtual instruments will do everything you need - but the best virtual instruments are expensive! BUT... an arranger can produce good mock ups in a short space of time, and they can act as controller and a good sound source too.

Lots to think about in the replies before now, plus this one of course. I wish you all the best in your music making.

[Toril S]

I agree that a PSR S model is a good choice, used or new.
After learning how the keyboard works, start making music for yourself, for FUN!
Several members of this forum compose their own music. We have different music backgrounds.
It is OK to be realistic, but if ylu really want something bad enough, you will get there eventually.
I have no musical training, and is by no means an outstanding musician, but I have fun playing, making songs, recording them - with the onbourd sequencer of my keyboard, and this is what it all is about, having a good time!
So dive into it, but don't be disappointed if things take a lot of time. The music store can maybe get you in contact with a music teacher that can get you on a good start? Keep us posted! I will follow your musical journey with great interest! All the best from Toril S

[mikf]

It is OK to be realistic, but if ylu really want something bad enough, you will get there eventually.

Afraid there ia only one of two outcomes with unrealistic expectations -
You give up completely when it becomes obvious its a lot more difficult than you thought
        OR
You quickly realize your expectations were unrealistic, modify them, then carry on

Mike

[Toril S]

Yes, better the last option! Not all can be experts, but all can get the best out of what talent they have😀 Modify and carry on, that sums up life, at least mine😀

[EB5AGV]

I find this topic very interesting, as I was on a similar position (being a complete keyboard beginner) just a year and a half ago.

I would say that the keyboard is important, but you need to learn quite a lot of things to get to the point you want. I have got plenty of gear, as luckily I am on a moment in my life that I can do it, but these are just tools for you, the craftsman. Nice tools help, but don't work by themselves. And the simplest keyboard on expert hands will sound lots better than myself on my Genos 

Summing up my learning experience, I am attending a nearby Yamaha Music School to learn to play piano and also a local Music School to learn Musical Language (I have just ended first course  ). I have found that I need music theory, even if I play by ear (right hand) easily. Then I have bought plenty of books, from improvising and ear playing to scales and arpegios, and try to learn from them also, step by step.

So I wish you good luck with your endeavour!. Keep on playing and learning, it is a very rewarding experience.

Jose

[travlin-easy]

I agree with Mike and Eileen. Any PSR arranger keyboard will allow you to do this and much more. I am acquainted to several hundred highly talented musicians on this and other forums, yet I only can think of one that produced anything near film quality music and he used a PSR-S670. His creations are pure genius to say the very least. Take a listen to https://app.box.com/s/p129gm9vmt1ezlni3wouw12jieg91yss

Good luck,

Gary

[EileenL]

Yes but remember that the sound is probably mastered through something like Sony vegas after being sequenced and the use of sampled voices as well.

[panos]

Nice Jean Michel Jarre covers 

I was started to learn to play keyboards at a big age.I was about 27 years old.
So I bought a very cheap old second handed Yamaha keyboard and used it for piano playing and less as a keyboard with styles and beats.

The problems that I faced were:
1) Lack of time.When I was a child I had plenty of free time to do things that I liked but when you are working everyday not so much free time to spend.
2) Really hard to practice with the "easy" tunes and childish melodies which I didn't like at all.
3) I am right handed, so the left hand was only useful to me until then, just to scratch my nose and hold the cigarette. There were not any "connections" between my brain and the left hand and all my concetration is on it when I play up until now, even if it is doing the simpliest "job".
4) No google or youtube back then, so I had to figure out by myself the music theory by reading a couple of books.Not so easy to understand the sounds by using your.... eyes

Anyway, 3bc there are plenty of options as you can see to buy a keyboard or something else.
You can start with a cheap one(used or new),
or you can start with a great keyboard from the S series which is not cheap.
( They look cheap to us who can understand what they really can do though )

If after a while you see that you are no longer are so much interresting in music you can still sell it at a good price.
Between the s670 and the s775, choose the s775 if money is not such a problem.
If it is true that the new psr will be released this year as they say,
last year the price of s770 was 200 euros down in Europe for a couple of weeks when the s775 was released.

[EB5AGV]

I was started to learn to play keyboards at a big age.I was about 27 years old.

If yours was big age... How should I call mine?. I began playing keyboards three months shy of being 50! 

But, well, being older has its advantages: I am really focused on the learning process and also have the resources for gear and musical education 

Jose

[Toril S]

I started when I was 30. No education, just went into a store, purchased my PSR-47, went home, put it on a table and learned by trial and error. Still playing 29 years later, and having a lot of fun! But I had been playing accordion before that, and still do.

[panos]

  Jose that was nice!
And you have bought all these stuff?
I remember some simple piano and strings sounds were enough for me for years   

Toril, although the music theory is the same in whatever instrument you play nevertheless  to learn a new instrument is not the same and not that easy, you are right. 

[DrakeM]

Oh, my I started fiddling around with a PSR2000 back in 2004 ... I was 53. I had never played anything but a guitar before that time.

I heard what Gary Diamond could do with his PSR3000 and just kept practicing with the keyboard daily. Lessons would have probably just slowed me down learning to play an arranger. 

Get any arranger and just dive into learning the whole keyboard.

[EB5AGV]

Jose that was nice!
And you have bought all these stuff?
I remember some simple piano and strings sounds were enough for me for years   

Yes, the thing is that I don't have a full life ahead as you may think when you are younger. So I thought to get all the gear I may need, have it handy and then select which ones I like the most.

So far, the Genos and the DGX660 get more use. And then it comes my experimental setup, with a NI Maschine Mk3, Komplete Kontrol S61 MkII and Arturia Keylab 61 Mk2, all connected to a PC with NI Komplete 12, Maschine 2, Analog Lab 4 and Cubase 10 Pro 

So I have a loooong way ahead and plenty of things to keep me busy for years to come 

Jose

[mikf]

The great thing about these arranger keyboards is that it is a lot easier and faster to get to where you can make  music. Easier than conventional piano, but still needs ability to coordinate left and right hands doing different things, while reading or thinking about the music rather than the mechanics of fingers pressing notes. I don't think anyone does this naturally, it takes time and practice even to get to just ok level. But that can still be a lot of fun and quite satisfying.
Pretty much everyone who gets to be any good as a keyboard player starts young. It's not just time, research has shown that the brain physically changes to adapt to new things when you are young, and those changes are permanent. That is no longer possible as you age, no matter how dedicated you are. But it does benefit people who take up new instruments. I have never personally heard a good keyboard player that started later in life except those that were already good musicians on another instrument.
Mike

[EB5AGV]

The great thing about these arranger keyboards is that it is a lot easier and faster to get to where you can make  music. Easier than conventional piano, but still needs ability to coordinate left and right hands doing different things, while reading or thinking about the music rather than the mechanics of fingers pressing notes. I don't think anyone does this naturally, it takes time and practice even to get to just ok level. But that can still be a lot of fun and quite satisfying.
Pretty much everyone who gets to be any good as a keyboard player starts young. It's not just time, research has shown that the brain physically changes to adapt to new things when you are young, and those changes are permanent. That is no longer possible as you age, no matter how dedicated you are. But it does benefit people who take up new instruments. I have never personally heard a good keyboard player that started later in life except those that were already good musicians on another instrument.
Mike

Do you say in English something like throwing cold water over someone? 

Jose

[Toril S]

In Norway we say give someone a cold shower.

[EB5AGV]

In Norway we say give someone a cold shower.

Yes, it is similar also to the Spanish way to say it...

All in all, I prefer to spend my free time trying to learn to play piano and keyboards instead of spending my time watching TV, as most people do.

I don't pretend to be a Lang-Lang wanabee, just enjoying the music I have loved all my life and now have the chance to play. Or try to play, at least 

Jose