Best Solution Ever after 1.4 update

[elad770]

I was planning to post this for some time now after the 1.4 updates is released

Reading ALL the threads about it i came to the following conclusions followed by and IDEA:

A. Genos is a powerful tool that can provide endless opportunities
B. There are thousands of users
C. Every person has a different interpretation of how he would like to see his Genos improved

Question: Is there a way we can make everyone happy?

Yes, there's a way!

I suggest designing the flagship Model (Genos and maybe 1 other premium model s-975) with an open code platform!

What i mean by that is to basically have the main software code available for developers to add/sell features in the Genos app store! Yes!

Think about the Genos as a smartphone or Google Chrome that you can simply add/remove features by installing extensions!

People will be able to have any feature they can think of starting from:

1. display features
2.midi behavior
3. Button assignment

Just name it. I can think of hundreds if not thousands of Little things that are software based that can be added

Think about it: instead of Yamaha having a small number of code developers they can have thousands!
I'm not talking about the Sampling technology or hardware stuff. The only user interface feature

Any developer will be able to develop and upload his extension to The Genos Store for free or with pay

The installation will be as easy as downloading an app. No firmware updates

1. What do you think about the idea?
2. Can we promote this together?

[EileenL]

I would not like the idea of fitting things to my keyboard without the backing of Yamaha. What happens
If you were to use one of these additions and it did a lot of damage to your keyboard. Who puts it right.

[tyrosman]

I would not like the idea of fitting things to my keyboard without the backing of Yamaha. What happens
If you were to use one of these additions and it did a lot of damage to your keyboard. Who puts it right.

here here Eileen well said what a stupid idiea

[elvisfigredo]

Calling this a stupid idea is rude. Sounds like a good idea but, like Eileen pointed out, there could be legal and warranty issues.

[Joe H]

elad770,

I understand where you are coming from but the arranger keyboard is not a smartphone.  Yamaha would be the only source for extensions because they will never release the code (operating system) as open source.

I doubt that they will ever go in the direction you are suggesting.

Regards,
Joe H

[Tyros5Mad]

Not a great idea unfortunately but full marks for thinking about how to improve your kbd software.

Regards,
Richard

[elad770]

Thank you for all your feedback

I just wanted to point out that there's no such thing a stupid idea. Only those who never try to think out of the box remain stupid

When Steve Jobs wanted to eliminate the physical keys from a phone many called the idea stupid.

The second point is that an extension added to a keyboard can NOT damage the system, especially if coming from approved developers. And yes, it is exactly the same as downloading an app that doesn't work and think it will destroy your phone. You simply uninstall the app if it doesn't work well

Finally, the same way you have Android and the main platform can only be controlled by Google, so to, the main software can only be determined by Yamaha, including unlocking certain features

I'm only referring to little software solution and improve user interface and customize it the way people like

But it was worth the try.... Thanks again

[hans1966]

Hello Elad770, I think it's a good point when you talk about the open source, since there is more freedom to install the applications that we like, but not necessarily what we like is the best for us and we also run the risk of falling into the hands of third parties , and without any kind of guarantee or support from Yamaha. I personally think that the GENOS, is an excellent keyboard with a unique potential, that still has an updateable operating system and therefore can come more surprises. Greetings. Hans

[Al Ram]

Elad770

I think your idea is very creative.   Open source is the way many software development organizations are going . . .

From the viewpoint of the user it might be a very flexible way to go and it will get the creative thinking of a larger user base . . .

From the viewpoint of Yamaha . . . not sure there is any money there. . . so from a business viewpoint not sure there is a sufficiently big incentive.

thanks   

[beykock]

Hi E770 :

Not a bad idea, almost a dream but ... I really wonder if Yamaha can and/or want to change their company policy and tradition ?🐻

Since 2002, after the introduction of the Tyros1, Yamaha became ( in no time ) the arranger keyboard world leader.
In 2019 their market position is still #1.

Why should they shoot a winning horse if they are still successful after 17 years in a very fast changing digital world ?


Babette

[Normanfernandez]

It's a really good idea,
But if Yamaha were to get involved,
It would be a lot more safer. 


Currently Yamaha is way behind when it comes to software.
Do hope Yamaha can make such an agreement.
Regards Norman!

[pfeuh]

Hello,

There is an alternative OS for the well known AKAI MPC 1000, there is also an alternative application for Microsoft Office called openOffice. Even against Windows itself, there is Ubuntu... And dozen of other Linux distributions. If you want, you can... But as Microsoft's ones, Yamaha products are highly locked, the community must be huge to produce something useful. In my opinion, a users forum is not strong enough. But I like the idea.

[beykock]

The digital world has no limits and a lot of new software is made every day but an arranger keyboard is a MUSICAL INSTRUMENT.

A musical instrument is made for making music.
There are black and white keys involved and 10 human fingers.

I know software could be a very useful tool to improve sound quality and technical challenges are always funny and exciting BUT they will never improve our playing skills and the joy of playing musical instruments, IMO.

If only the software and the pc are important one does not need an arranger keyboard but a midi keyboard and a pc.

A lot cheaper but ... what is more important
for a musician : playing music with her/ his instrument or making music with a computer mouse ?

IMHO playing a musical instrument and being creative is the musician's real passion.

Software is a very useful extra tool but playing music and singing is for most of us, I guess, our first need, joy and passion.

After so much experience, Yamaha know the needs of musicians and I am sure they listen and hear what the market wants but building a real musical instrument must stay their first target and priority, I hope.

My words might sound old fashioned but who am I ?



Babette

[Dromeus]

Anyone rembers Lionstracs?

https://www.synthtopia.com/content/2007/04/07/lionstracs-mediastation-x-76/

Linux based, completely open. BIG failure..

[ckobu]

Dromeus, I remember very well. I watched (and recorded) a presentation at the Musicmesse in 2004.

https://youtu.be/Bpiw4k2yY60?t=16

[mikf]

There are about 3 billion smartphones in the world, so it's very lucrative to develop a good smartphone app. The numbers could never support the same thing for a Genos. Even if yamaha made it possible,  unlikely  anyone could make enough revenue selling apps to make development of apps worth the effort.
Mike

[soryt]

On the Technics keyboards from the KN 6000 series of , it was possible to change youre home screen to youre wishes ( almost 15 years a go)
Midi behavior and button assignment is already possible , there is just one thing i hoped Yamaha haved  to made possible on Ver 1.4 and they didnt .
Make a decent rotary slow/fast control possible with the external controller like it was possible on the Tyros series .
It was a complain by many customers in the beginning but Yamaha dont listen or read .

[elad770]

I read everyone's responses carefully and must say:

It seems that this is not even a revolutionary idea and was attempted before. It also seems that making small changes to fit specific needs is also no big deal

so Why Yamaha doesn't do that? Why they don't offer more flexibility and customization to basically every feature? I'm talking more about the flagship model at least

[Joe H]

I read everyone's responses carefully and must say:

It seems that this is not even a revolutionary idea and was attempted before. It also seems that making small changes to fit specific needs is also no big deal

so Why Yamaha doesn't do that? Why they don't offer more flexibility and customization to basically every feature? I'm talking more about the flagship model at least

Yamaha has paid a lot of money for patents as a way to protect their technology. Even if they were to license the OS, competitors like Korg, Casio and Roland would love to have a look at what Yamaha has done so they could build a better keyboard.

Even if Yamaha were to offer custom firmware updates, they would have to encrypt each one like they do for their custom expansion packs so Genos owners would not be able to share/sell it to someone else.

Not a very smart way to go.

Joe H

[Bill]

The basic idea of an open source OS may sound like a good idea but would be difficult to manage, however if Yamaha adopted the APPLE way of controlling APP's it could work, It's just not going to happen.

However Yamaha could make some of the new features in Version 1.4 a little bit more useful. I DO NOT Like the way they have changed the onscreen sliders or the delay they have introduced on the Physical Sliders.  They could make everyone happy if the simply gave everyone the ability to set their own delay.  In the function menu they could have a control to set delay from 0 - 400 mSecs.   Very simple to do.

Regards

Bill

[elad770]

The basic idea of an open source OS may sound like a good idea but would be difficult to manage, however if Yamaha adopted the APPLE way of controlling APP's it could work, It's just not going to happen.

However Yamaha could make some of the new features in Version 1.4 a little bit more useful. I DO NOT Like the way they have changed the onscreen sliders or the delay they have introduced on the Physical Sliders.  They could make everyone happy if the simply gave everyone the ability to set their own delay.  In the function menu they could have a control to set delay from 0 - 400 mSecs.   Very simple to do.

Regards

Bill

Well said Bill

That's what i meant. Yamaha can have full control over this. The example you gave is perfect because the sliders behavior change is very subjective and everyone have their way of looking at it
the solution will be: Either Yamaha open source to others to able to develop these small features and settings or Yamaha should develop the software to have hundreds of settings that we can control. Very simiplar to Songbook , Mobilesheet pro and other musician apps where you have under settings litterly ANYTHING you would like to change. From assigned buttons all the way to size of a text font

[Seagull29]

Hi

I see this discussion with great interest. The idea is good and probably bring a lot of money to Yamaha royalties. If, for example, we take the Style creator, there would be many things to improve to make the Genos and other instruments like the PSR series, not only as a musical instrument for pleasure but as a professional tool. At Korg, the style creation is powerful but, if we remember well, the best Style Creator on an arranger was that of the G70 which was a real DAW with which we could do almost everything. It far exceeded that of the Pa4X and was incredibly easy to use.
But, like its predecessor the Tyros 5, the Genos Style Creator is prehistoric and unobtrusive to use to get a convincing result without going through a DAW.
No doubt the brand is more on Plug & Play users than on pros users. And above all, I think it is a commercial strategy to force users who want to have very good to pass necessarily the box store. It's a shame and that's why I will not buy the Genos although the sound is very good. It really lacks professional tools and the last update did not really change the instrument fundamentally. Maybe next, but I really have some doubts!

Regards
Seagull29

[Joe H]

Hi

I see this discussion with great interest. The idea is good and probably bring a lot of money to Yamaha royalties. If, for example, we take the Style creator, there would be many things to improve to make the Genos and other instruments like the PSR series, not only as a musical instrument for pleasure but as a professional tool. At Korg, the style creation is powerful but, if we remember well, the best Style Creator on an arranger was that of the G70 which was a real DAW with which we could do almost everything. It far exceeded that of the Pa4X and was incredibly easy to use.
But, like its predecessor the Tyros 5, the Genos Style Creator is prehistoric and unobtrusive to use to get a convincing result without going through a DAW.
No doubt the brand is more on Plug & Play users than on pros users. And above all, I think it is a commercial strategy to force users who want to have very good to pass necessarily the box store. It's a shame and that's why I will not buy the Genos although the sound is very good. It really lacks professional tools and the last update did not really change the instrument fundamentally. Maybe next, but I really have some doubts!

Regards
Seagull29

That's why I bought a copy of StyleMagic.  It gives us access to far more parameters with its Voice Editor and Drum Editor than we have on the keyboard. The multieditor (Piano roll) allows deep editing and quantizing.  But the program can definitely be improved, like being able to Import MIDI loops or Export and Import style Parts (like Style Creator Assembly)

Joe H

[Snicker740]

I think your ideas are very attractive, and those who think you are stupid are quite extreme with your ideas. In this forum everyone can say their dreams.
However, considering the practicality, it is completely impossible because for a large enterprise like Yamaha, all their ideas are money. Maybe they have come up with a lot of good things but they will not put them all into a Genos generation, but they must plan to release it one after another from Genos 1 to Genos 5 ... etc ...
From your idea, I have a new idea that Yamaha will sell features in patches, and people can go to Yamaha online store to buy patches, just like they are doing with the Premium package.
People can choose the features they like, to create a base firmware installation of their choice, of course Yamaha will need info Genos to manage their sold feature patches. For ease of understanding, you will buy feature patches and combine them and create a firmware installation file, the same way we create CPI, PPI files from multiple CPF, PPF packages.
With this way Yamaha will manage features and collect money from their ideas.
This is more feasible than programming applications like your idea shows.

[Tyros5Mad]

Here's how i see it.

Developing a smartphone or Android app is developing an add-on to the IOS or ANDROID operating system. Apple would never allow users to tamper with their IOS operating system or Mac OSX. Same with Google and the Android OS or Microsoft and Windows.

The same principle applies to the Yamaha Keyboard OS. WE can make add-ons like styles, voices etc to our heart's content, but tamper with the OS itself? Never. Personally I think that's a good thing. Imagine dozens, hundreds or more versions of the Genos OS out there. You could not be sure that an add-on would work on all Genos keyboards. That would be a bad thing.

My thoughts. RL

[elad770]

Here's how i see it.

Developing a smartphone or Android app is developing an add-on to the IOS or ANDROID operating system. Apple would never allow users to tamper with their IOS operating system or Mac OSX. Same with Google and the Android OS or Microsoft and Windows.

The same principle applies to the Yamaha Keyboard OS. WE can make add-ons like styles, voices etc to our heart's content, but tamper with the OS itself? Never. Personally I think that's a good thing. Imagine dozens, hundreds or more versions of the Genos OS out there. You could not be sure that an add-on would work on all Genos keyboards. That would be a bad thing.

My thoughts. RL

YES, YES, YES ! That's exactly what i meant. Thank you for rephrasing it for me. My idea is to let Yamaha have full control over the main software and OS - exactly the same in the phone industry
and allow us to install add ons, extensions (ilike in chrome) or whatever we would like to call it. These add ons are SMALL, EASY TO DEVELOP, Easy to uninstall and pose no threat to Yamaha technological aspect

Remember my words guys: This will be the future of Yamaha Flagship Whether we like it or not. When features become so vast in their complexity Big corporation understand they can not have only few people to work on it. They need the minds of thousands of people to develop and work for them. The only way to do that is to allow developers to provide 3rd party add ons to the product. It's not only Apple or Android thing. This is the philosofy of the future. Remeber who said it first

[mikf]

I just cant see a viable business model in this.  Umbers don't support it  Maybe they could sell a few hundred apps for a Genos, but even at a few thousand that's  not a viable investable business. That's a hobby.