Expectations

[beykock]

If one is very happy and very pleased with his/her ( arranger ) brand - for so many years - why should he/she shoot his/her winning horse, Vali ?
I agree it is always interesting to gather information of the competition.
It might confirm his/her choice has always been the best.😁

All competitive information can be found/heard/seen on the internet and Youtube, IMO.

Babette

[Fred Smith]

[quote author=valimaties link=topic=50564.msg395953#msg395953 date=1562244326

2. Synchro Stop function was not made for resetting process of style. It was build to be able to play the first "n" beats repeatedly as many times as you want. Between releasing the keys and pressing the key you have a lag, which is hearing and is annoying. If the reset function should have been implemented, that pause/lag would not have been heard...

[/quote]

I never said anything about using SyncStop. I agree it's annoying, although it has its uses in limited circumstances.

To reset the style,  I use Stop followed by SyncStart.

Cheers,
Fred

[valimaties]

I never said anything about using SyncStop. I agree it's annoying, although it has its uses in limited circumstances.

To reset the style,  I use Stop followed by SyncStart.

Cheers,
Fred

I want to see you doing this in a millisecond 

Best regards,
Vali

[Lee Batchelor]

To reset the style, I use Stop followed by SyncStart.

Fred has found a workaround and mastered it. Hat's off to Fred for that. I wasn't aware you could do that. Thanks for that, Fred!

On the other hand, Kaarlo mentioned that the Style Reset function existed on his ancient 5700. I've owned a lot of PSR and Tyros keyboards and have never had that function available on any of them. To be fair, I only need it for a handful of songs. I tend to be less annoyed about "things I wish they had included on this keyboard" versus "the really convenient things the older keyboards had that are now removed." This modern-day trend of removing things that worked so well on older models is very disturbing. Of course, there are some features that should be discontinued because they are no longer used by anyone and have been replaced with far better technology. But keep the things that worked well. Just don't toss them aside so you claim to management that you created something "new and improved."

The Genos is a splendid piece of work, but if the Style Reset button was present on a dinosaur and worked well, why was it removed in the first place?

[Fred Smith]

I want to see you doing this in a millisecond 

Best regards,
Vali

Sigh.

Next time, just let us know you're not interested in solutions, that you only want to complain.

It will save me a lot of time.

Cheers,
Fred

[Lee Batchelor]

Fred, I tried your Stop button solution on Pretty Woman and Song Sung Blue. Both tunes have a 6/4 (or 4/4 + 2/4) bar at the end of a phrase. It took me about one minute to master the technique for re-triggering the 4/4 count for the next phrase. I turn the Stop button on and off on an as-needed basis. It works! Probably less streamlined than a dedicated button but with a little practice...

Thanks again .

[valimaties]

Sigh.

Next time, just let us know you're not interested in solutions, that you only want to complain.

It will save me a lot of time.

Cheers,
Fred

It is not a solution! Demonstrate it in live playing, because I don't understand how do you retrigger the style to first beat in any moment without any lag or to hear the change!
It seems from your comment that you are a quite nervous, and I don't understand why, as long as I tell you you cannot do this and you did not demonstrate it can be done with a minimum effort!

Example: you have a 4/4 measure in a style. Your singer, (you don't know why), will start playing the verse from third beat instead of first one. How do you retrigger to the first beat using your technique?! 

Fred, I tried your Stop button solution on Pretty Woman and Song Sung Blue. Both tunes have a 6/4 (or 4/4 + 2/4) bar at the end of a phrase. It took me about one minute to master the technique for re-triggering the 4/4 count for the next phrase. I turn the Stop button on and off on an as-needed basis. It works! Probably less streamlined than a dedicated button but with a little practice...

Thanks again .

Demonstrate with a video! I don't believe you can do it without a pause between stop and start!

Regards,
Vali

[Lee Batchelor]

Hi Vali,

I can do it without most of the lag but you do need an impeccable sense of timing. I also admit that I don't get it perfect all the time. I certainly wouldn't record using this technique, but when playing a gig full of noisy people, it would work well enough.

As mentioned, it's not as perfect a solution as having a dedicated button that re-retriggers back to Beat 1 but it's close.

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi
I bet you can make a lot of new sounds by layering in YEM
I have not tried that yet

All the nbest
john

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Eileen, and other who enjoy this keyboard.

I did not say I not enjoy it, or I don't make gigs with it, as it is! I do, and I have a lot of gigs, believe me.
But, in the world there are people who are gratefully with what God give them (I am too), and  those people who, above the others, wants more in life! I don't want to stop here! I don't want to think "that's it"! WHY?! Some of us are advanced users/players of this keyboard and other ones, pianos, even other instruments... Why we have only to gratefully only with this if we now there is more potential, but in the fact, the things which bothers us are not solved in a year and a half from the launch of it?!
I (and others), we know you are pleased, you enjoy it. Very well ! Enjoy it, but let us speak about problems there are in this keyboard, that Yamaha see and solve those problems! I told it in the past and I tell now again: if someone's problem exists and he/she encountered it, that does not mean this has to be solved with a workaround thing! It must be working as it has to be!
I, personally, don't care why some of you does not recognize that this (wonderful, yes) keyboard has glitches and bugs. Maybe, you, how you play, and how do you highly use this keyboard, you don't encounter problems. It's very ok, sing and play a lot as you play.
We, others, which encounter problems, we want to tell about them, to be known, and to complain, because we expect on a TOTL arranger to work at least without operating problems, all controls to work fine. I expect for Style Reset function till 1.20 version has come. I tough it will be in 1.20. After that I tough it will be in 1.30, now in 1.40. They don't care about it, because of you, those which are negate the utility of new functions. You post every time "it's not needed" that, and that, and that! Why those functions are bad in the keyboard? What bothers you so much the presence of some new functions?! Why don't you align with other users which care about Yamaha keyboards and wants more?
I think it is not unity from you, guys! Yes, I don't use midi files, but I did not say never that is a bul...s.. the presence of that player in keyboards. Let it be, if someone use it, let it be there, I don't care who use it and who not!

Please, be more kind with the people who want more things, or want some functions to be repaired (like registration bank). If someone told about a problem, before saying it is not a problem, test on your keyboard the given information, and if it is happening to you too, that means it is a problem. Yes, maybe not for you, but for other might be! So, I encourage the unity, not for "let it be as it is" !

Best regards, and I hope some day all of you will think as it might to be, for others too, not only for you!
Vali

God is great , because he gives us a free Organ well Half of us
All the best
John

[valimaties]

Hi Vali,

I can do it without most of the lag but you do need an impeccable sense of timing. I also admit that I don't get it perfect all the time. I certainly wouldn't record using this technique, but when playing a gig full of noisy people, it would work well enough.

As mentioned, it's not as perfect a solution as having a dedicated button that re-retriggers back to Beat 1 but it's close.

Lee, I appreciate your comment, as Fred also (but I don't know why he is such nervous )

BTW, I did some tricks for resetting the measure by using shyncro stop button, and pressing the keys on beat (one or two times, depending on the beat I start resetting the style manually, using this technique). It is very hard to do it on a style on 198->203 tempo beat
But really, with a reset function (think about it) you can also make some "mixing" style as a DJ (something like Sty Rtg function from knobs).

'Till I have a demonstration that it can be done with minimum effort using your workaround, I now there is not a real solution, and a good solution one.
Sorry, but you must convince me!

Fred, be more calm - show me how you do it, and I will believe it can be done and I'm the fool which cannot do it !

Regards,
Vali

[Bachus]

Expectations, are never a good thing, fallen for that to many times...
However there is a differnce between epecting and wishing..

Personally i am more a wishfull thinker..

I for long have found work arounds for the things i wished for in the Genos..
Mostly due to my modx8, but also by some other expansions (modules and ipad)
I am quite happy where my setup is now..
And i am still severely happy with my genos..

I recon the upgrade was quite small, but a step forward.
And every step is a step..

My biggest problem currently is time management..
Made a big promotion at work, but getting ito my job sucks most my time
I barely have time to play late at nights..
But things should become better after summer..

[travlin-easy]

C'mon guys, it's just a matter of timing, and some folks can master Fred's technique in a matter of minutes, while some will never be able to master it. Songs with those kind of breaks have been around for a long time and for as long as they have been around, keyboard players have been able to perform that break with a fair degree of accuracy if they take the time to practice it.

Good luck,

Gary

[tyrosaurus]

Maybe I am missing something regarding what you are trying to achieve, but why is it necessary to use both the Stop button and then Sync Start?

When you press Sync Start (or trigger it from a pedal) the style stops anyway, so pressing Stop first seems to do nothing other than add an extra step, making the timing more difficult.

Whether you press Stop first or just Sync Start, the style only restarts when you trigger a chord.

Whichever way you do it, it is going to be much more difficult to get a good result with fast tempos compared to typical 'crooning' songs.


Regards

Ian

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi

I play the Byrds Turn turn turn. Highlight Sync Start, play the intro yourself without beats and then go for the sync start all is great once you lay your hand on the first chord off you go, the same in the middle wait for the fill to end with a cymbol and press sync start, play the first little bit and go for the chord again  and off you go . no lag. All you have to do is get your timing right or all will go ***((()%%$£"! up!!

all the best
John

[Joe H]

One thing that definitely needs fixing on the Genos is an "update code" for the Live Control knobs and faders.  It IS possible to fix this.  There have been many complaints about how the Volume or other parameters "jump" when adjusting Live Control parameters rather than a smooth adjustment starting from the current setting... which should be expected from a $3000 keyboard.  It should even be expected from mid-priced keyboards like the S970 and S975.

There has been previous discussions about "encoder" knobs verses faders.  Yamaha can fix this current poor implementation of how the knobs and faders function/respond.  It's not rocket science... just implementing good basic computer code. They could just borrow the code from the Motif. I believe that particular fix would make everyone happy, even those who say it's not a big deal... home players and gigging musicians alike.

NOTE: This function was included on the Peavey PC1600x hardware controller in the late 1990s.  If I adjust the volume for an external sound module from the Mixing Console on the keyboard, then I can adjust the volume further using the Peavey faders... with a smooth transition (no jumps up or down). If the Peavey programmer could figure it out, then Yamaha can figure it out too.



Joe H

[Lee Batchelor]

Agreed, Ian. I think in Fred's first post on this subject, he meant that the Sync button must be used to start the style - not the Start/Stop button. After the style is started using the Sync button, the Sync function stays on, and then you can engage the Stop button when needed.

Gary is 100 percent correct. Some of us can time it very well while others may need to work hard at getting the feel of it. Once you get it to work, it's a wonderful tool. For years, my music buddy and I have been playing Pretty Woman and letting that one bar play out a full four beats. Even the audience sings along like the original. Kind of embarrassing to throw them a curve ball .

[valimaties]

I don't know why some people bothers with some new function, even if there is a workaround?!

I can't understand 

Ok... Let it as it is, I see that I cannot change the workaround guys  
My thought are you live in a workaround world, it's like you eat soup with fork, because after a time it's surely that you will finish it, what matter that spoon was invented?! )))))))))


Regards,
Vali

[Bachus]

One thing that definitely needs fixing on the Genos is an "update code" for the Live Control knobs and faders.  It IS possible to fix this.  There have been many complaints about how the Volume or other parameters "jump" when adjusting Live Control parameters rather than a smooth adjustment starting from the current setting... which should be expected from a $3000 keyboard.  It should even be expected from mid-priced keyboards like the S970 and S975.

There has been previous discussions about "encoder" knobs verses faders.  Yamaha can fix this current poor implementation of how the knobs and faders function/respond.  It's not rocket science... just implementing good basic computer code. They could just barrow the code from the Motif. I believe that particular fix would make everyone happy, even those who say it's not a big deal... home players and gigging musicians alike.

NOTE: This function was included on the Peavey PC1600x hardware controller in the late 1990s.  If I adjust the volume for an external sound module from the Mixing Console on the keyboard, then I can adjust the volume further using the Peavey faders... with a smooth transition (no jumps up or down). If the Peavey programmer could figure it out, then Yamaha can figure it out too.



Joe H

This is definately one of the things that becomes an irritator of some kind, when you are used to better. In the modx, you can choose from 3 different behaviour models for knobs and sliders.

[travlin-easy]

Hey, why not just use a song specific style, which is what I have been doing for years for Pretty Woman and several other songs of this ilk.

Now, in order to use the attached style, you will need to learn how to sing the song's end in time with the style's ending, which is exact for the song. Works for me every time.

Enjoy,

Gary



[attachment deleted by admin]

[Lee Batchelor]

Yes, that works too Gary! Thanks for the style!!

Vali - I love your analogy of eating soup with a fork. It can be done but why bother when you own a spoon? Trouble is we don't have the spoon yet. If Yamaha would provide a spoon, I'm sure even Fred would rather use it than the fork .

[Fred Smith]

Vali,

When a device is missing a feature, you have to use a workaround. You're not condoning the fact the feature is missing. You're just doing what you have to do.

To reset to beat 1 while a style is playing, simply press the SyncStart button.

Regarding handling a 2/4 bar, the best way is to incorporate a 2/4 fill into the style. I'm almost useless at modifying styles, but even I can create a 2/4 fill using Jorgen's software.

By the way, I don't think "nervous" was the translation, but if it was, I'm not.

Cheers,
Fred

[valimaties]

Hi Fred, thanks for your reply and your explanations.

Yes, using SyncStart button can be a workaround.

But really, I would have to "implement" other things in ones mentality: ONLY WE users can make Yamaha do more things for us, free, by upgrading firmware of arrangers, by telling them our ideas. But if we starts from the beginning by answering: "Why do we need a function if we already this can be done by workaround?!", that will make Yamaha to think that if there are users which are happy with workarounds, it's a good thing, and they will not implement ever new functions...

So, that I came and tell you to be unity, when a new function is in demand, that will make our job to be made more easily

Best regards,
Vali

[Fred Smith]

Hi Fred, thanks for your reply and your explanations.

Yes, using SyncStart button can be a workaround.

But really, I would have to "implement" other things in ones mentality: ONLY WE users can make Yamaha do more things for us, free, by upgrading firmware of arrangers, by telling them our ideas. But if we starts from the beginning by answering: "Why do we need a function if we already this can be done by workaround?!", that will make Yamaha to think that if there are users which are happy with workarounds, it's a good thing, and they will not implement ever new functions...

So, that I came and tell you to be unity, when a new function is in demand, that will make our job to be made more easily

I don't think anyone is happy with a workaround. Where did you get that impression? But when a feature is missing, workarounds are all you have, and they're important to share.

Regarding how to get Yamaha to implement new features, you and I will just have to agree to disagree on the best way. I personally don't think endless complaining works well.

Cheers,
Fred

[valimaties]

I personally don't think endless complaining works well.

I think is our generation of 20-30 to complains about things that don't work as we expect.
Playing on different arrangers I took what is good from one and from other. In this century of a big raising technology from a day to another, I personally want that an electronic device to make my job easier, not to hinder it...
So, I think, me and others will complain as long as I live, maybe I will got my sunshine one day  !

Cheers

[mikf]

Then you are going to spend your life in miserable complaining because nothing is ever perfect. And going on and on about very small irritations and minor issues quickly becomes tiresome to other people.
Mike

[Lee Batchelor]

As one of the older guys on this forum, my life experience has taught me a few things about complaining:

Complaining about things you wish your particular device had
Maybe such requests can be honored some day, but complaining about them not being there just irritates some users.

Complaining about things that don't work right
These are defects and should be looked after by the company concerned. Users have every right to complain until something is done about the problem. If you don't like to hear about it, read other posts. I think Yamaha keeps most things under control when it comes to defects.

Your device doesn't work as expected
You bought something and it doesn't do what you expected it to do. I guess that is under the category of "buyer beware." With such an enormous purchase, you have every right to sit in a music store for days (if necessary) to make sure the floor model does everything you need. If not, move on to another make. I believe most of us have moved from the Tyros(x) to Genos. We have a preconceived idea of how the Genos should work. I'm fortunate to deal with a large music store chain who will order me any product I want, pay for it, take it home and use it for 30 days. If I don't like it, bring it back.

There are some minor annoyances with the Genos that I wish Yamaha would fix, but I'm very happy with my new purchase. It's already been a year !

[tyrosman]

I read all these opinions and hopes about the 1.40 upgrade, and say to myself, wow didn't realize the Genos
was that limited and lacking so much. I own the Genos, and yes nothing is perfect, but after reading all these
wishes and yes, complaints, don't know how anyone can enjoy what they already have. But, we live in a world of
expecting perfection, so for those in that camp, I feel sorry for you. Even if Yamaha would upgrade to your Genos
to your desire, you would after a few day still feel empty. Like something is always lacking. My 2 cents worth is, enjoy this
awesome keyboard, and relax.

ill second that Mike 2 I love it to bits it is a fantastic Keyboard

[travlin-easy]

Ditto!

[Joe H]

I have a different perspective on this topic. 

Everyone has different technical and musical skills. So what satisfies one person, doesn't necessarily satisfy the next person.  No one uses all the features available on your arrangers. Nor do we all use the keyboard in the same way. Yamaha has to make a one-size-fits-all instrument for the mass market.

We have had this discussion so many times.  Making keyboards is different than making cars... with many options you can special order.

Yamaha gets its ideas from this forum and other sources and responds to the market in a cost effective way.  But that doesn't mean what some "power users" want is illegitimate, they just expect more based on their personal skills, knowledge and experience.

Joe H