Recording pickup notes first

beanneil · April 10, 2019, 08:32:48 AM

I want to know how to record the pickup notes separately before the drum beat starts. I am using one finger chords with auto accomps. As soon as I touch any melody key, the drums start and the first beat of bar 1 starts and throws the timing out. How do I correct or set this so that the drum beat and accomp actually starts after the pickup notes ?

Fred Smith · April 10, 2019, 09:01:40 AM

Quote from: beanneil on April 10, 2019, 08:32:48 AM
I want to know how to record the pickup notes separately before the drum beat starts. I am using one finger chords with auto accomps. As soon as I touch any melody key, the drums start and the first beat of bar 1 starts and throws the timing out. How do I correct or set this so that the drum beat and accomp actually starts after the pickup notes ?

1. Check your split point to ensure it's at the right dividing line between your left and right hands.
2. Use SyncStart so that the rhythm won't start until you play a note with your left hand.

Cheers,
Fred

DerekA · April 10, 2019, 09:35:03 AM

In addition to Fred's suggestion.

I normally use Intro 1 + sync start. Playing the first chord triggers Intro 1 which is usually just a simple drum lead-in before the full accompaniment starts.

mikf · April 10, 2019, 10:00:46 AM

What he means by pick up notes are I believe unaccompanied lead in notes played ahead of accompaniment. I think there is an issue with this when recording because I have experienced it myself and been unable to solve it. The internal clock seems to dictate when the accompaniment initiates if recording is on, regardless of when start is pressed or synch start is triggered. So if you play lead in notes there can be an ugly momentary pause before accompaniment starts. Example is if you play a verse in free time then try to bring in rhythm, a common arrangement. You can do it in live playing, but not when recording is on, or at least that is my observation.
Mike

panos · April 10, 2019, 01:31:00 PM

Yes there is problem if we don't follow the song's tempo so we can trigger the synch button with our chords playing at the correct timing.

I use the metronome to keep up the rhythm in a midi recording.
The sound of the metronome won't be recorded and I disable the metronome when I have a "free" hand for a moment.

I never tried with metronome on in an audio recording to see if it's sound will be recorded though or not.
If it does we must follow the lights of the Sync button to keep the exact rhythm.

The biggest problem is when the intro playing shouldn't be played at the song's tempo.
In that case we must rearrange our playing that way that we can trigger the chords at the right spot.

For example you can hear the first 3 notes of the brass sound playing a little unnatural at this recording.I was keeping my eyes to the keyboard's lights to trigger the chords at the right moment.
Otherwise the result would be a lot worst if I played the 3 notes at the correct timing but haven't triggered the chords at the keyboard's tempo.There would be a awful "pause" as Mike said.

https://soundcloud.com/user-74537650/i-will-survive-gloria-gaynoryamaha-psr-s750-keyboard-cover

mikf · April 10, 2019, 05:09:18 PM

Yes Panos, this is the problem. I remember some discussion of this many years ago. I wondered if it had been solved on the more recent models, although it still happens on my CVP705. It's quite annoying. If somebody has a good workaround that would be good.
Mike

Fred Smith · April 10, 2019, 06:32:43 PM

Quote from: mikf on April 10, 2019, 05:09:18 PM
Yes Panos, this is the problem. I remember some discussion of this many years ago. I wondered if it had been solved on the more recent models, although it still happens on my CVP705. It's quite annoying. If somebody has a good workaround that would be good.
Mike

Derek gave you the workaround. Start with Intro 1. That will keep the notes on the proper beat.

Cheers,
Fred

panos · April 10, 2019, 08:03:29 PM

hm....that's the problem Fred.
Sometimes we don't want the notes of the intro to be at the same beat as the rest of the song.

It could be slower, radically increasing or a free play without a tempo or even a different rhythm (the intro could be 3/4 and rest of the composition 4/4 when the beat begins)

I know that the keyboard's style it cannot be a variable piano playing so each time I am trying to figure out which is the best way to start the beat at the right time.

Fred Smith · April 10, 2019, 08:23:33 PM

Quote from: panos on April 10, 2019, 08:03:29 PM
hm....that's the problem Fred.
Sometimes we don't want the notes of the intro to be at the same beat as the rest of the song.

It could be slower, radically increasing or a free play without a tempo or even a different rhythm (the intro could be 3/4 and rest of the composition 4/4 when the beat begins)

I know that the keyboard's style it cannot be a variable piano playing so each time I am trying to figure out which is the best way to start the beat at the right time.

So, then, just record the midi from the first note. What's the problem with that?

Cheers,
Fred

mikf · April 10, 2019, 09:50:00 PM

These workarounds don't address the problem. It doesn't matter if you use an intro - there is still an unacceptable and uncontrolled pause. And in any case you wouldn't want to use an intro in this kind of arrangement. Panos covered this up in the example by stretching the bridge, but that actually sounds just as bad to my ear. I do this kind of free time/ rhythm arrangement all the time in live playing but it doesn't work if recording.
Mike

mikf · April 11, 2019, 01:17:01 AM

Quote from: Fred Smith on April 10, 2019, 08:23:33 PM
So, then, just record the midi from the first note. What's the problem with that?

Cheers,
Fred

Fred - that is what does happen. But it sounds musically so bad with the unwanted gap that you just wouldn't do it. Like having a bar in the middle of a song with a couple of extra beats of nothing that you can't get rid off. Try it and you will hear what I mean.
Mike

jwyvern · April 11, 2019, 02:28:16 AM

Have you tried recording with the Audio recorder? That does not impose limitations on timing rules as midi does. Basically play how you want and it records it.
John

mikf · April 11, 2019, 04:23:16 AM

John
Yes, audio recording would work of course, but then you lose the many advantages of multi track midi recording where you add additional orchestration, edit, and then convert to audio, perhaps also adding a vocal or other live instrument.
This timing issue is one of the disadvantages of the midi sequencer and it would be good if it could be solved. I am not an expert but would be surprised if more sophisticated sequencers do not already get round this and I thought it might have been fixed by now on the newer arranger models. I used to have a digital multi track audio recorder, so I could work round this, but I got rid of it. It was a pain to operate anyway and I just did not do enough recording to ever get good at using it.
Mike

jwyvern · April 11, 2019, 07:16:14 AM

Quoting Mike,
"I am not an expert but would be surprised if more sophisticated sequencers do not already get round this and I thought it might have been fixed by now on the newer arranger models."

On Genos I can quick record in Midi, starting with lead in notes in the RH and starting the accomp when I want to and on time by playing in the LH so have difficulty in identifying completely with the problem currently. l do seem to recall the timing being upset when tried formerly on Tyros.

John

panos · April 11, 2019, 08:01:04 AM

I have tried once with the on board audio recording John, because I had transpositions in the registrations and the midi recording played back in just one key.
(Although if we use the transpose button in midi recording it will play correctly but not if we use registrations with transpositions.)

Apart from the advanages that Mike said,
the main problem with the audio recording was the "usb busy"problem so I had to repeat the recording from the start again and again and again.
This recording was the 8th-9th attempt

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zliBet3boVY

It is hard that way to play and be calm for one take recording for a song you've just learned and must remember everything by memory.
I wanted to play again to change/correct some things but to try another 9 times? No way!
Also I cannot change the EQ settings after the audio recording to be relatively better for other devices when I test the recording sound to the pc.

mikf · April 11, 2019, 08:36:28 AM

Quote from: jwyvern on April 11, 2019, 07:16:14 AM
Quoting Mike,
"I am not an expert but would be surprised if more sophisticated sequencers do not already get round this and I thought it might have been fixed by now on the newer arranger models."

On Genos I can quick record in Midi, starting with lead in notes in the RH and starting the accomp when I want to and on time by playing in the LH so have difficulty in identifying completely with the problem currently. l do seem to recall the timing being upset when tried formerly on Tyros.

John

Well if that is the case they have addressed the problem on Genos. That is great. I don't have a Genos, and it still happens to me on the new CVP. I see that panos has a PSR so that might still be a problem on that keyboard. Don't know what keyboard the OP has, but if it is a Genos he may be doing something wrong as Fred suggested.
Maybe Genos is the first keyboard where they have implemented a 'fix'. Don't remember anyone raising it recently.
Mike

Fred Smith · April 11, 2019, 10:21:22 AM

Quote from: mikf on April 11, 2019, 01:17:01 AM
Fred - that is what does happen. But it sounds musically so bad with the unwanted gap that you just wouldn't do it. Like having a bar in the middle of a song with a couple of extra beats of nothing that you can't get rid off. Try it and you will hear what I mean.
Mike

I have recorded a midi file with pickup notes. It played back perfectly -- exactly as I had recorded it.

The only problem I had was in editing the file, as the notes didn't match the measure/beat in the score. But the workaround was pretty simple. I either adjusted adjusted the midi timing by inserting the appropriate amount of empty time at the start, or recorded the song with an intro 1. Either way, it worked for me.

I'm not sure what there is for Yamaha to "fix". They are following the midi standard, so if there's anything to be changed, it's to the standard, not Yamaha's implementation of it.

Cheers,
Fred

jwyvern · April 11, 2019, 12:42:34 PM

Bear in mind Fred also has Genos.
John

mikf · April 11, 2019, 12:45:52 PM

Fred
Fred
I don't think this is a midi implementation problem. It is more likely a limitation of the sequencer used in some previous or lower level Yamaha models.
It seems that this problem might be fixed on Genos, which is why you are not seeing it. It still seems to be happening on my CVP though which is a recent model. I attached a very quick short sample to show the problem. I made this using midi recording, then converted it to audio. You can hear clearly how the style doesn't start for at least a couple of beats beyond where I physically initiated it. There is no workaround i can think of with midi recording. I repeated this demo about 6 times on the keyboard, and sometimes just by luck it comes out close enough to hardly notice. So although it's possible to get very close by luck, it seems much more likely that Genos has a more sophisticated sequencer.
If they have used a different sequencer in Genos, maybe they will eventually build that into a future CVP.
To show the difference when using audio recording I made a 2nd short version straight to audio, and you can clearly hear how that works perfectly. But of course, you then cannot multi track, add vocals or any of the other things that are advantageous with an initial midi recording.
Mike .

[attachment deleted by admin]

panos · April 12, 2019, 12:38:03 PM

Mike the test 1 mp3 is 0 kb.
The 2nd is ok!

I don't think some people understood that we speak about two different tempos in one recording.

When we play without pressing the chords the style always begins when we press the chords,or intro or sync start or play, so it is always at timing.
But...
When we do the same in recording the keyboard's clock,tempo and timing is beginning from the very first note we will press.
It doesn't care when we are going to hit the chord section to start the style immediately.
No!
The internal clock is allready ticking and counting from our very first note,
so the first note of the style also follows that clock and not the first time we will hit the chord button or the start button or the intro button or the sync start button.

Our friend beanneil if he does what Derek said will be fine because he didn't mention that he wanted to play the "pick up" notes in a different tempo.

But in case the pickup notes are not at the same tempo with the rest of the song,then there will be a problem in one take midi recording.

I doubt that newer models can do it correctly in midi recording.
They will need two different "clocks" and they don't know the timing of the first one so they can start to count.
Unless the first clock is always measures at a set tempo(eg always is at 100 tempo no matter what you play) is always triggered only if a pick up note is played first and always stops when the second clock is beginning with the chord section.

I don't know technically if this is possible or if it is worthing fix this on a keyboard.

mikf · April 12, 2019, 02:10:11 PM

Panos
Playing free time really has no tempo at all, or you could say it has multiple tempos. Playing a lead section in free time and picking up seamlessly into 'the rhythm' is a very common musical arrangement. Bands, orchestras and vocalists do it all the time. It is also common to bring the rhythm to a halt near the end, have a short free time section, then pick it up again for a closing cadence, especially with a vocalist. Many, many songs are arranged this way. These arrangements are so common in music that I would be very surprised if this problem was not solved on the most sophisticated sequencers. And it may well be on Genos.
I have no idea how it would technically be done. The clock is always running and is divided into small enough 'bits' that you can easily pick up any time for start-up of a style. The issue is to allow the style to start without waiting on a specific time on the clock, and that seems surmountable.
Mike