Drums, Drums, Drums.

[Kaarlo von Freymann]

For many of the songs I play, I switch to a Brush Kit.

- Royce

So do I. This again shows we play different music and therefor we like different sounds. For instance I understand the HAMMOND sound is very popular with those who used to play a HAMMOND.  So the better a keyboard emulates a Hammond, the more they praise it.  As I played guitar and saxophones before switching to keyboards I always felt the Hammond sound is too far away from real instruments, kind of synthetic so I never use Hammond sounds on my keyboards. 
As a fact as much as I agree with those who say YAMAHA keyboards since Tyros sound pretty much the same, I for one do prefer the Genos drums that my friend Abby  - whom I admire -  is not very happy with.

Cheers

Kaarlo 

[Kaarlo von Freymann]

Hi Abby,
...I would consider preset styles/OTS on a keyboard as just basic tools to work with and make them sound to our liking.
....So I am using the mixing console and style creator to change things for better or worst but at least for the final result it's only me to blame.
...Maybe you have missed my other post where I have written that from what I understood,
as long as the drums are not following any chords, on Genos you can record real drums to play in a style and not having to use Yamaha's drumkits at all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhlhMxb1PC0

......If you want an arrangement for a song to be good as you wish,sometimes you've got to pay the price I guess.
... ..If I stick to just what I have studied and expect from pc programs ...The keyboard is a machine with lots of features to make it sound right.....We've got to learn how to use them little by little everytime.

Thanks, I loved this comparison. Excellent idea and very well done and very entertaining.  At 3:20 you can hear what a deum machine is not good at.
Here again it is eviden we all play and like different music. I would never use these modern drum patterns because they are so different from what I feel drums are all about:  creating swing. But the swing era was 60 years ago  and some of the drumming could bring to mind Gene Krupa, who for me often a bit too machine gun like. Here comes Sammy Davis. Start at  1:50. Few were as good in so many things as he, singer, dancer, drummer, playing the vibraphone. BTW the YAMAHA vibes are very realistic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USxvJFfKXrE

Cheers

Kaarlo

[Oymmot]

As we say in sweden when it is absolutely right. You've hit the head on the nail!
I use only set 87.
Revodrums 
Tommy

[soryt]

What I miss the most in this discussion about the alleged bad drum sound of the Genos, What does the audience think about the drum sounds of the Genos?
Have they complained or wasn't it so bad to hear?
I think in this case there is a deteriorated ear of the musician who has been exposed to high sound pressure for too long in his long musical career. It is strange that thousands of people are very satisfied with the new drum kits of the Genos and suddenly out of the blue it would not be good anymore according to a professional player. there are indeed a lot of things to improve on the Genos, but when it comes to drum kits, Yamaha is really on the right track.

Soryt

[emmaco]

Abby ( Pianoman ) is a real and great pro gigger.

Yes. So do I... and other players I think...

And I really love the drums's sound of the Genos.
Yes, you'll have to change 2-3 things, but in the end it will be ok.
It's sounds like a real drummer, in contrary of previous engines. And it counts a lot.

I missed sync stop in full AI keyboard mode.

But IMHO, drum's sounds are great.

[travlin-easy]

The drum sounds are a subjective subject, and this will vary from one musician to another, especially those of us that are or were on stage for decades. Personally, I only played a Genos for 2 hours, it sounded fantastic through headphones, and had i not retired, I would have purchased one when it first became available and after testing it first hand. Now that I have retired, I'll stick with my aging S950, which I absolutely love.

All the drums are tunable in the most of the S series and Genos. However, it requires lots of work and time and effort to do this, and then all this must be placed within registrations as the tuning reverts back to factory preset once the keyboard is turned off.

All the best,

Gary

[Pianoman]

What I miss the most in this discussion about the alleged bad drum sound of the Genos, What does the audience think about the drum sounds of the Genos?
Have they complained or wasn't it so bad to hear?
I think in this case there is a deteriorated ear of the musician who has been exposed to high sound pressure for too long in his long musical career. It is strange that thousands of people are very satisfied with the new drum kits of the Genos and suddenly out of the blue it would not be good anymore according to a professional player. there are indeed a lot of things to improve on the Genos, but when it comes to drum kits, Yamaha is really on the right track.

Soryt

Please note that this is only my opinion, and in no way is meant to criticise the opinions,
choices, or judgements of the illustrious members of this forum.

It is also not a wholesale criticism of the Genos as an instrument, just the drumkits.
They are the thing that makes or breaks a good style, and they could have been
better.

Best Regards.
Abby.

Hello Soryt.

I was counting the days until my comments would ruffle some feathers, where someone
would discreetly get personal.

Please note that in my original post I stressed that my comments were not made to
denigrate the tastes and preferences of others, nor to criticise the Genos itself in
a wholesale way as an instrument.

First I would like to say that audiences do not notice or care about drums or the
instrument you're playing, contrary to what some people may say here.

If you proudly say to your audience that you have a new instrument, someone will
come along and say that it sounds great.

They don't mean it, they just say that to make you feel good.

I have played with many drummers for over 25 years before going solo.Some were ok,
and some were good, but a couple of drummers that I played with in Germany were
absolutely magnificent.

I did not say in my original post that I can't hear drums or have problems with my ears.

My hearing is just fine and I know good drums when I hear them.

Since 1971 i have lived and performed in 8 countries, 6 of them in Europe, in my chosen
career.

When I listen to or play music, I absorb every nuance of every instrument in the given song.
That includes chord structures, drum accents, basslines, melody lines, solo instruments,
and vocals as well.
I then memorize all this information, to be performed in front of a bunch of people later.

I am not alone in this, there are many good musicians on this forum who probably do the
same thing.

Though I can't read music, I am a perfectionist and will listen to a single song for days on end
If necessary, until it becomes a part of me.

I am saying this in order to explain that this is very good ear training.
You listen to every tiny detail and nothing is left to chance.

Those who play music for a living have to be at their best and get it right ALL the time,
without exception, even through illness or injury.

A mediocre performance is unacceptable and would probably be your last gig in that
particular venue.

This is why drums are so important to me.

Drums and Bass are what will make or break a song. A good solid drum with a rock solid
bassline are essential. I am not getting this from the Genos drums.

I have downloaded Onacimus' conversions of Genos styles for the Tyros series and
they've been a lifesaver for me.

I get to play Genos styles while using Tyros drums instead of Genos drums, which I
can't stand.

It's a matter of personal opinion and taste, not loss of hearing.
What could be wrong with that?

Best Regards.
Abby.

[hans1966]

Hello Abby, I agree with you, especially when you say that you do not read the score, but you have developed the ear, to examine each sound, instrument, dynamics and intention if you want of the author of the melody or song. I often use the ear, to learn new songs, both instrumental and sung, but perhaps where I have to pay more attention is when I have to make sequences, since most of the original songs have a lot of mixing in the sound, so I have to listen to several Sometimes the same part, to get the melody of a particular instrument, which sometimes is not well appreciated. In this work I have been more than 35 years, and although I love doing this type of work for some singing friends, I confess that it is slow and exhausting. that is why I understand your position with respect to the sound and character that each instrument must have, at a certain moment. Greetings. Hans

[beykock]

Very interesting to read the comments of a successful and professional gigger like Abby ( Pianoman ).

It is rather unusual an arranger keyboard player is replacing the latest and newest preset styles by converted styles of older arrangers to do his daily job sucessfully.

I never heard that ever before. 😱

Babette

[travlin-easy]

Abby, apparently, great minds think alike. I too agree with everything you said, and like you, I cannot read music, well maybe enough to hinder my performances. I studied each and every song I performed and did my best to duplicate that song as closely as possible. This often meant tuning the styles to fit that song, then saving that information into a registration, or completely revising the style and saving it as a user style, renaming it to the title of the song for easy and fast reference. This took years to accumulate all the styles I needed for my performances. And, yes, you must be at the top of your game, even when you are sick - the audiences don't give a damned if you are knocking on death's door - they just want to be entertained.

All the best, old friend,

Gary 

[Pianoman]

Hello Gary my friend.

It's good to see you here. I've been practicing day and night for the past two weeks and
have little time to write or comment. I pop in here once a week or something.

The styles you sent me are a treasure and I'm quite busy with them too.
They're almost all perfect as they are and need little or no adjustments at all.
I only adjust the master volume on some of them, mostly for the compression.

I have been learning how to edit these styles and put in the kit I like, as well as removing
things like claves, clicks etc, and replacing them with hi-hats and so on.
I revert to acoustic or standard drums and then work on them.

It's a long and tedious process, and shouldn't have to be this way.
The quest for authenticity on some drumkits hasn't always made things better.
Quite the contrary.

I use a style for Superstition called SuperGroove for example, and the drums are awful,
so I use the conversion from Onacimus instead.

I'll get this thing to sound better, but it's going to be a long and frustrating process.

I don't have time for this, that's the problem.
This weekend I have 3 gigs for three completely different kinds of audiences.

Tomorrow will be for older Spanish people, Saturday will be young Spanish people, and
Sunday will be Rock n Roll and Soul music all afternoon for our local English expatriates.

For the young Spaniards it will be Salsa, Flamenco, Rock n Roll, and plenty of Rock
music. They're crazy about Rock music.

Best Regards.
Abby.

PS: I bought the Genos on the 21st of February and it has almost completely paid for
itself already.

[Kaarlo von Freymann]

Hello Soryt.
.....audiences do not notice or care about drums or the instrument you're playing, contrary to what some people may say here. .....If you proudly say to your audience that you have a new instrument, someone will come along and say that it sounds great.....they just say that to make you feel good......I did not say in my original post .....that I have problems with my ears....My hearing is just fine and I know good drums when I hear them.....Though I can't read music, I am a perfectionist and will listen to a single song for days on end.......Those who play music for a living have to be at their best and get it right ALL the time, without exception, even through illness or injury.....Drums and Bass are what will make or break a song. A good solid drum with a rock solid  bassline are essential. I am not getting this from the Genos drums......It's a matter of personal opinion and taste, not loss of hearing.

Best Regards.
Abby.

[/color]

Hi Abby,  thanks  once again for saying what I believe to be true.  My experience is exactly what you state: "audiences do not notice or care about drums or the instrument you're playing, contrary to what some people may say here[/b] 

We all know that keyboard drum roles are a far cry form the real thing, but in spite of that many use it to introduce a speaker as it does get attention. Nobody except a drummer has ever told me: your drum roll is a joke.

I just could not play trumpets and saxes without the analog VCF anf VCA . I intonate these instruments by blowing into a silicone tube.  (I started out playing sax like you)  To me they would not sound right me without being "blown", but I have never seen anyone else using  that system.  Most comments I get are not about how real my saxes or trumpets sound, no. it is a grin "is that tube connected to a bottle of vodka in your amp case ?"  (I have only played in Finland, Sweden, Denmark, Italy  and Germany so there is still the possibility that posters from the UK and USA have a different audience)

Like you I cannot play from sheet music - except a sax where the fingers are already positioned correctly. So like you I learn the chordal progression and melody by listening, and some left hand chords by Oscar Peterson cannot even be reproduce as a keyboard style.

I have always felt lucky I did not earn my living by playing.  You can be a successful lawyer though you may lose a lot of battles in court,  but as you say a musician must be at his best ALL the time. Which is probably one reason the greatest musicians are overrepresented in drug and alcohol abuse. (Stan Gez, Charly Parker....)  The stress is perpetual.
I am sure your opinion is not due to loss of hearing. BTW though we tend to believe it is loud popular music that destroys hearing, at least here in Finland classical musicians are even worse off. Several of my friends, who played in symphony orchestras were disabilty - pensioned.  Shostakvich 7th  is about 116 dB at the end.
I for one am inclined to believe your opinion is a matter of valid personal opinion, not loss of hearing.

The fact that for me the Genos Drums are  Ok might be because I am not a professional and  cannot hear anything above 8000 hz

Cheers

Kaarlo

[EileenL]

Hi Abby,
  Have you tried replacing the drum kits on some of the styles from the Legacy folder on Genos or downloaded the Audio styles which will now work from a USB stick or USER.

[Pianoman]

Hello Eileen.
Thank you for your counsel.
Changing to a desired drumkit will sometimes produce clicks, scrapes, etc, which will involve
going into  style editor to change the note numbers.

I will stick with Onacimus' conversions where the only thing I have to do is reintroduce the
DSP effects with a few taps on the insertion effects and system effects sections which I
then save to registrations.

There are many other issues that irk me, but quite a few have already been discussed
on this forum, so won't go into them now because this topic is about drums.

Two of them really stand out for me though.

I dearly miss the master volume slider for RH voices.
It was a time saver when playing live, as one only had to raise or lower the general volume
without disturbing the delicate balance between RH voices.

Second is that adjusting the Compressor button may nearly blow your ears off as well as those of
your audience, as 9 times out of 10 the compressor volume will shoot to maximum, thus
quadrupling the volume of the instrument.

When practising at home I would stop the style and adjust the Compression settings,
but when you have an audience dancing or listening,  one can't just stop the music and
start fiddling. It's also dangerous.

Luckily, all entertainers are required to pay a yearly civil responsibility insurance here, in
order  to perform.
In case of any adverse effects on audience members, whether it's tripping over cables,
having speakers fall on them, or having their eardrums shattered.

I hope that I can finish my gig season without gettting sued by somebody.

Apart from that, I'm still grappling with the keyboard and I'm sure that sooner or later
I will be able to get a decent sound out of this instrument.

Best Regards.
Abby.

[jwyvern]

Abby,
You can go to Live Control in the main menu and assign one of the sliders (or knobs if preferred) to Keyboard Volume. It will then stay that way as long as you do nothing to change it. (It is generally best NOT to save registrations with Live Control ticked so they cannot interfere at some point with the settings).
If you don't see a Kbdvol function make sure the firmware version is the latest v. 1.3.

You may not be able to rely on getting a smooth transition using the screen icons to change things. (I can't, but being a home player I only have myself to worry about  ))
An alternative is to touch the icon so it is activated then use the wheel or the up and down buttons to do a smooth change.

John

[EileenL]

Hi Abby,
  Slider number 9  Kbdvol set on page 1 of Slider Assign will raise and lower volume leaving the balances where you saved them.

[Pianoman]

Thank you Eileen and John.

I have found the Keyboard Volume slider.
I will try to place the keyboard volume in the Mic slider or Song slider, since
I don't use neither Mic nor Songs.

Best Regards.
Abby.

[jwyvern]

Thank you Eileen and John.

I have found the Keyboard Volume slider.
I will try to place the keyboard volume in the Mic slider or Song slider, since
I don't use neither Mic nor Songs.

Best Regards.
Abby.

Unfortunately those positions are in the B slider group which is fixed, so you would need to select positions taken from slider groups 1 or 2.
Or all the knob groups are configurable if you want to consider changing one of those.
John

[soundphase]

.... Ok, everyone can have his/her opinion. I respect.

It's the first time I read a thread in this forum, for which I totally disagree with the core initial idea.

As Soryt previously, I find the new REVO drums FAR FAR better than Tyros drums. For me, it's THE major improvement from Tyros 5.

My Music teacher is 75 years old, also a "gigman" for 50 years, and "first price for piano clarinet and saxophone of Paris Music Conservatory". He has a Tyros 5, uses it for his gigs.
I lent him my Genos during 1 week.

The first thing he told me : "the drums are far better".

For a non professional like me, who is not able to play naturally 300 good notes per minute, having such styles with heavy drums and heavy bass is great and goes towards modern music styles.


Regards
Soundphase.

[beykock]

Hi Francesco,

Very interesting comments.

Especially your message :
" Genos' drum kits are absolutely dry ".

This statement was new to me.
Thanks, Babette

[Pianoman]

.... Ok, everyone can have his/her opinion. I respect.

It's the first time I read a thread in this forum, for which I totally disagree with the core initial idea.

As Soryt previously, I find the new REVO drums FAR FAR better than Tyros drums. For me, it's THE major improvement from Tyros 5.

My Music teacher is 75 years old, also a "gigman" for 50 years, and "first price for piano clarinet and saxophone of Paris Music Conservatory". He has a Tyros 5, uses it for his gigs.
I lent him my Genos during 1 week.

The first thing he told me : "the drums are far better".

For a non professional like me, who is not able to play naturally 300 good notes per minute, having such styles with heavy drums and heavy bass is great and goes towards modern music styles.


Regards
Soundphase.

Hello Soundphase.

Like I wrote in my original post and another recent post, it's all a matter of taste and opinion.
I'm not trying to change anybody else's opinion.

I'm just stating that I am not  impressed by the Revo! drums.

I feel that they are not as tight, dynamic and crisp as the drums in the Tyros and PSR
series.

The pursuit of authenticity in a sound or voice does not always ensure the best
results, especially in the real world out there.

I have a Kawai MP11 stage piano that I adore, whose sound is sampled from Kawai's top of
the line concert grand.
I also love the action and mechanism of the keys, which are the exact mechanism found
on a concert grand. The feel when playing it is sublime.

I recently tried out a Roland RD 2000 and am very impressed.
Roland samples and then models their piano sound until it sounds as it should in the real
world. I will be buying one shortly.

I have recorded the intros of the ScatLegend styles of both the Genos and the Tyros 5.
I prefer the drum sound of the T5, which I find is crisper, tighter and more dynamic.

Others will prefer the Genos drums, and there is nothing wrong with that.
It's all a matter of what stimulates one's senses better.

As for the 'gigman' Music teacher, as you wrote, sound is subject to many things, and really
depends on where you play, what you play, and whom you play for.

And as for me, I am now exclusively using Tyros, PSR, and 3rd party styles on my Genos.

Thanks to the kindness of many Tutorial and forum members, I have found many useful
styles in the Styles Collection section.

And a great styles selection from our good friend Gary Diamond, a.k.a
travlin-easy.

Here are the short demos, which are better heard on a pair of good headphones,
in order to differentiate the sound better.

Best Regards.
Abby.


[attachment deleted by admin]

[Toril S]

I have to agree with you Abby. Tyros drums sound better, to MY ears!

[Joe H]

... Here are the short demos, which are better heard on a pair of good headphones,
in order to differentiate the sound better.

Best Regards.
Abby.

I hear a difference in the high-hat rather than the snare.  It's subtle difference.  Both sound good to me!



Joe H

[ckobu]

Bass guitar in Genos is different and it gives a different sound to the drum. In addition, the drum ratio in Genos is somewhat lower than the other strips. A little bit of work in Drum Edit gives you such results. From my experience, a small number of rhythms in Genos have been processed worse than the 70'ScatLegend.

Best regards,  ckobu



[attachment deleted by admin]

[Pianoman]

Bass guitar in Genos is different and it gives a different sound to the drum. In addition, the drum ratio in Genos is somewhat lower than the other strips. A little bit of work in Drum Edit gives you such results. From my experience, a small number of rhythms in Genos have been processed worse than the 70'ScatLegend.

Best regards,  ckobu

Hello ckobu.

There are other styles too, but not all, where the drums are plain horrible.
It's mostly on the styles that try to emulate the drums of the 50s to the
70s.
I just picked a style that I was working on, which happened to be the 70s ScatLegend,
but there are others.

I am not going to go on forever about this subject, but I had to express my opinion, as
well as encourage new prospective buyers to carry a set of headphones whose sound
quality they trust, when trying out a new instrument.

The rule of thumb is that if it sounds bad on headphones, it will sound even worse on
speakers.

I did go and try out the Genos quite a few times last year, and expressed my opinion
that it sounded dull and that the drums were disappointing, which, predictably I suppose,
caused howls of protest here.

Giving an opinion that is not complimentary usually will not win you many friends.

I sometimes think that it will take an innocent child to declare that "the Emperor has no
clothes" in order to inspire some people to come out and finally say what they really think.

I had to buy my Genos last month because I had gigs coming up in 2 days and didn't have
a keyboard to perform with.
It happened to be the only professional keyboard available on this entire island.

I had set my mind on buying something else as a second keyboard in the month of May
2019, probably a T5-61, but sadly my T3 gave up too soon.

Best Regards.
Abby.

[soundphase]

It's clear that the difference is very light here.

But I listened to your 2 MP3s, on Yamaha MSP10 active monitors studio.

For me, Tyros 5 high hats do a little more artificial "psshhhh" or "ssss", and Tyros 5 snares do a little more artificial "poum" in your MP3 samples.  It's far to be awful, but it seems to me less realistic than Genos version which is more natural as standard rock drum kit for me.


Regards
Eric

[beykock]

Due to a T3 crash, Pianoman was obliged to buy a new highend arranger keyboard urgently. 😢

For professional players like Pianoman, having so much pro work, it might be very useful to add a spare arranger keyboard like e.g. an S970/975.

I know it is complicated, not an easy ( expensive ) solution but ... there are no other options available, IMHO.

Babette

[Pianoman]

Due to a T3 crash, Pianoman was obliged to buy a new highend arranger keyboard urgently. 😢

For professional players like Pianoman, having so much pro work, it might be very useful to add a spare arranger keyboard like e.g. an S970/975.

I know it is complicated, not an easy ( expensive ) solution but ... there are no other options available, IMHO.

Babette

You are right Babette.

I am still looking for a shop demo T5-61 to buy, and keep as a spare.

However, I have to spread the cost of buying the Genos, which has eaten
into my budget, over the next couple of months.

It has almost completely paid for itself over the last 29 days, and my original plan
while my T3 was still working, was to buy a T5 or PA4X in the month of May.

But I am on the verge of buying a Roland RD2000 stage piano as well.
All this will require some deft juggling.

Best Regards.
Abby.

[beykock]

Hi Abby,

Thank you for your reply.

Adding a T5/61 could be a very good option, I guess.

I am sure you already found out the PA4X is a super arranger with a great sound but keep in mind Korg's software is completely different.😯

For your daily applications it could be a serious problem to work with 2 different systems ( like Win and Mac e.g. ).

Since your work is your daily income there are difficult decisions to be made : or you go for Yamaha or you go for Korg but a combination of these two brands is risky and very complicated, IMHO.

You are the Decision Maker ... Nobody Else !😀

Take care, Babette

[travlin-easy]

During the past 30 years, while I was still gainfully, self-employed as a musician/singer/entertainer, I had a complete, duplicate setup. Ironically, though I performed 7 days a week, most of the time, I never experienced a keyboard failure. I guess I was just fortunate in that I never had to use my backup system. I had 2 of everything, identical keyboards, amps, mics, keyboard stands, custom consoles, laptops and pedals. I figured that if one system failed, or part of the system, that would go into the repair shop and I would still be able to work while the repairs were completed.

I listened to Abby's recordings, and there was a difference, mainly in the crispness of the drums. The Genos was definitely much softer sounding, but I believe that could have been tuned to sound identical to the other drum kit. The problem with all this is time, of which, we never seem to have enough of - especially when you are a full time entertainer and have to work every day. Now that I no longer have to work, my time is even more precious because I have so little remaining.

Good luck, Abby,

Gary