Sy***

[Normanfernandez]

My Understanding of Sy*** is limited.

On the Modify Sy***,,
You have 20 Boxes and Decimal and Hexadecimal and Convert.

I've been through the Data List ( 970 / 770)

I got quite Confused...

I Do know that Sy*** can activate DSP.

But i end up more confused.

i'll be grateful for any help..

Regards Norman!!


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[pjd]

Hi Norman --

The pull-down lists in the upper part of the dialog box define the content of the Sy*** message.

The hexadecimal and decimal boxes -- at least the way I would use them -- are a convenient tool for converting a decimal number into hex. It's convenient because Yamaha sometimes specifies parameter values, etc. in decimal, sometimes in hex. It looks like the message editor wants hex...

WRT the messages needed to create DSP insert effects, please see:

http://sandsoftwaresound.net/insertion-effects-for-midi-songs/

That's the method I use to program DSP insert effects into a MIDI file.

Hope this helps -- pj

[SeaGtGruff]

You won't always need to fill in all 20 boxes; it will depend on the specific message, because they do not all have the same length. The last byte should always be "F7" to indicate the "End of Sy***" (or "EOX," the "End of Exclusive").

[Normanfernandez]

Hi Norman --

The pull-down lists in the upper part of the dialog box define the content of the Sy*** message.

The hexadecimal and decimal boxes -- at least the way I would use them -- are a convenient tool for converting a decimal number into hex. It's convenient because Yamaha sometimes specifies parameter values, etc. in decimal, sometimes in hex. It looks like the message editor wants hex...

WRT the messages needed to create DSP insert effects, please see:

http://sandsoftwaresound.net/insertion-effects-for-midi-songs/

That's the method I use to program DSP insert effects into a MIDI file.

Hope this helps -- pj

Thanks Pj
This has given me a much better understanding.

[Normanfernandez]

Here's what i tried to do. 

Create a automatic point for Main Variation Change.

Loaded it on the keyboard
it did not work

Is this possible??
Thanks again!

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[tyrosaurus]

Hi Norman,

I just used Mixmaster to insert style section control Sy*** messages on 3 MIDIs, and they worked as expected when played back on my Tyros4.

One song was a professionally produced one from the Yamaha XG Library.

The other two were recordings made on the keyboard itself, one being just a very simple note sequence recorded in Multi mode on just one channel (1), and the other was a Quick mode recording of a style.

So I suggest that you try again using MixMaster making sure that you have the latest version (currently v19R1).


Regards

Ian

[Normanfernandez]

Hi Norman,

I just used Mixmaster to insert style section control Sy*** messages on 3 MIDIs, and they worked as expected when played back on my Tyros4.

One song was a professionally produced one from the Yamaha XG Library.

The other two were recordings made on the keyboard itself, one being just a very simple note sequence recorded in Multi mode on just one channel (1), and the other was a Quick mode recording of a style.

So I suggest that you try again using MixMaster making sure that you have the latest version (currently v19R1).


Regards

Ian

The Use of this Sy*** is still quite Unclear to me

[Wim NL]

Connect your Genos to your PC/Laptop with usb midi cable

Open in Mixmaster the Monitor template
Location:
C:\Program Files (x86)\Michael P. Bedesem and Etienne Volbragt\MixMaster

Select monitor view right upper corner in mixmaster.

Press Record start
Now mix master is armed to record data as soon data is sended from the Genos

press for instand "Main B"

Than the sys/ex or other event appears from that action

[Normanfernandez]

Connect your Genos to your PC/Laptop with usb midi cable

Open in Mixmaster the Monitor template
Location:
C:\Program Files (x86)\Michael P. Bedesem and Etienne Volbragt\MixMaster

Select monitor view right upper corner in mixmaster.

Press Record start
Now mix master is armed to record data as soon data is sended from the Genos

press for instand "Main B"

Than the sys/ex or other event appears from that action

But this would only work on a style Midi

It won't work on a Song Midi that doesn't have a Style Backing. 

[Genos John]

Hi Norman

Im afraid I dont know what you are trying to do or what method you are using to send the Sy*** messages..but have replied in the hope it helps you some 

I have a Genos and if its playing an auto accompaniment, I can send it sy*** messages and the following messages change the Main Variations while the keyboard does its thing.

F0 43 7E 00 10 7F F7    Selects Main Variation A 

F0 43 7E 00 11 7F F7    Selects Main Variation B and is the one bar break pattern
F0 43 7E 00 09 7F F7    Selects Main Variation B

F0 43 7E 00 12 7F F7    Selects Main Variation C and is the one bar break pattern
F0 43 7E 00 0A 7F F7    Selects Main Variation C

F0 43 7E 00 13 7F F7    Selects Main Variation D and is the one bar break pattern
F0 43 7E 00 0B 7F F7    Selects Main Variation D

If I send these messages to the keyboard just after it is powered up and don't select any style or touch auto accomp buttons.. the Main Variation buttons light up as expected when the above messages are received by the Genos. Just make sure you have the Genos set to receive Sy*** messages and it should work for you ..by default is not.

Hope that info helps and is understandable and that it doesn't confuse  more.

[Normanfernandez]

Hi Norman

Im afraid I dont know what you are trying to do or what method you are using to send the Sy*** messages..but have replied in the hope it helps you some 

I have a Genos and if its playing an auto accompaniment, I can send it sy*** messages and the following messages change the Main Variations while the keyboard does its thing.

F0 43 7E 00 10 7F F7    Selects Main Variation A 

F0 43 7E 00 11 7F F7    Selects Main Variation B and is the one bar break pattern
F0 43 7E 00 09 7F F7    Selects Main Variation B

F0 43 7E 00 12 7F F7    Selects Main Variation C and is the one bar break pattern
F0 43 7E 00 0A 7F F7    Selects Main Variation C

F0 43 7E 00 13 7F F7    Selects Main Variation D and is the one bar break pattern
F0 43 7E 00 0B 7F F7    Selects Main Variation D

If I send these messages to the keyboard just after it is powered up and don't select any style or touch auto accomp buttons.. the Main Variation buttons light up as expected when the above messages are received by the Genos. Just make sure you have the Genos set to receive Sy*** messages and it should work for you ..by default is not.

Hope that info helps and is understandable and that it doesn't confuse  more.

I'm just fresh on Sy*** so my Question maybe weird. 

  I thought I could Add this Sy*** into Style file.
And load it up on the Keyboard. To make it Automatically Change variation.
I think I was wrong....

My Next goal is to learn....
How to Adjust DSP settings. 
Like Wet and Dry,,, Eq Gain.

For which I'm completely lost at the moment.

Thanks so much for the help so far.   
Regards Norman!!

[Genos John]

I think that is why I was not sure what you were trying to achieve Norman. I was using my computer to control the Genos and the Sy*** messages that I mentioned does it from within an old version of Cubase that I still use..   

I found this link on the main PSR web site which helped me understand how to change the DSP's and their setting. If you have not seen it..I would recommend reading it. Its not too difficult to do or understand ..but its a lot of work typing in all the Sy*** bytes as there are so many parameters that have to be changed.

https://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/Sy***.html

[SeaGtGruff]

I don't know whether you can insert a Style section change message inside an actual Style section and have it function as expected; and I'm not sure I understand why you'd want to do that.

On the other hand, you should be able to insert a Style section change message inside a Song file; in fact, that is how the PSR-E models record Style-related events while recording a User Song, except that the PSR-E models use Sequencer-Specific Meta-Events for that instead of Sy*** messages.

One thing you should be aware of is that Sy*** messages need an extra byte near the beginning when they're used inside MIDI files, to indicate how long the message is. You don't include the Sy*** status byte (F0) or the message-length byte in the message length, but you do include the EOX status byte (F7) that comes at the end. I don't know whether MixMaster automatically determines the length of the message and inserts the message-length byte for you, or whether you need to specify it yourself.

[Genos John]

Hi again Norman..I had a little time to pass today so did a simple experiment

I took the default Genos startup style called SkyPop.sty and changed the extension to SkyPop.mid then loaded it into my old version of Cubase and embedded some of the Sy*** codes I posted earlier into Track 12 of the style / mid file

Example
F0 43 7E 00 09 7F F7 at start of Bar 5 (Half way through Main Variation A)
F0 43 7E 00 0A 7F F7 at start of Bar 11 (Half way through Main Variation B)
F0 43 7E 00 0A 7F F7 at start of Bar 15 (Half way through Main Variation C)

I then saved the midi file and renamed it back to SkyPop.sty so it plays as a style again. (This modified style file has no OTS or CASM info as I felt that was not relevant to my experiment)

I can confirm the Sy*** messages do not change the variations when in the Style File

However they do work perfectly well in a midi song file.

To try for yourself I have attached the modified SkyPop.sty file so you can try playing it as a style. (I hope the file is attached as I have not tried that before?)

You will see the variation buttons on the Genos Keyboard dont change

However..if you rename the attached file to SkyPop.mid and play it as a midi song .. you will see the Variation buttons on your Genos keyboard change as the song plays.

For info ..  It only works with a Genos keyboard though due to the ID bytes in the Sy*** message

I trust that answers your question.


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[pjd]

Hi Norman --

I received your PM. Here are links to some of my other posts about DSP effects and Sy***.

Hope this helps -- pj

http://sandsoftwaresound.net/psrtyros-xg-effects/
http://sandsoftwaresound.net/xg-effects-system-mode/
http://sandsoftwaresound.net/psrtyros-xg-effects/
http://sandsoftwaresound.net/insertion-effects-for-midi-songs/
http://sandsoftwaresound.net/crunchin-da-drums/

Not Sy***-related, but could be useful:

http://sandsoftwaresound.net/psr-effects-electric-piano-1/
http://sandsoftwaresound.net/edit-save-psr-effects-2/
http://sandsoftwaresound.net/psr-effects-electric-piano-3/
http://sandsoftwaresound.net/copy-psr-effects-part-4/

I also recommend reading the Sy***- and XG-related documents on Jørgen's documents page:

http://www.jososoft.dk/yamaha/docs_specs.htm

[Normanfernandez]

Would DSP 2 be 01

DSP 2 --- 01H
DSP 3 --- 02H
DSP 4 --- 03H



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[Normanfernandez]

Would DSP 2 be 01

DSP 2 --- 01H
DSP 3 --- 02H
DSP 4 --- 03H

Taken from PJ,'s article.
I think he mixed up the numbers.

[SeaGtGruff]

You should be able to find the addresses in the Data List for your keyboard.

See page 89 for "MIDI Parameter Change table (EFFECT1)," which is "REVERB"; see page 90 for "CHORUS"; and also see page 90 for "VARIATION."

Then see page 91 for "MIDI Parameter Change table (EFFECT2)," which is "INSERTION EFFECT." The second byte of the address is listed as "n," and the footnotes on page 91 say that

The second byte of the address is considered as an Insertion effect number.
n : insertion effect number (n = 0-2)

[SeaGtGruff]

By the way, I think part of the problem/confusion might be due to the terminology used? "DSP" is actually a generic term, short for "Digital Signal Processing," where in this case the "digital signal" relates to sound, although the concept of processing a digital signal can relate to other types of signals as well.

Sometimes a company such as Yamaha will use a term in a manner that's not entirely accurate as far as its "official" definition-- although the problem with definitions is that they arise in response to the ways that words and phrases are used, so a particular instance of a word being used "incorrectly" according to its existing definition(s) could-- if the "incorrect" usage becomes common enough or persistent enough-- lead to a new definition being added to the word!

In any case, reverb and chorus are two types of DSP effects, but because they are so commonly used on keyboards Yamaha has given them their own names rather than referring to them as "DSP 1" and "DSP 2." But then Yamaha does use the term "DSP" to refer to a third effect, opting for the more generic term because it can be used for several different types of effects-- reverb, chorus, delay, distortion, etc.

I'm not entirely clear on what the "variation" effect is, unless it's just one of Yamaha's terms for the generic DSP effect which can be used for a variety of different types of effects. In some places-- e.g., in the manuals for the DGX-660 and other models of their keyboards-- Yamaha refers to the "third effect" as "DSP," where the first two effects are "Reverb" and "Chorus." But in other places-- e.g., the XG documentation and the PSR-S770/970 Data List-- they refer instead to "Variation."

And then there is the "insertion" effect, which I believe is referred to in that way because of its position within the "processing chain" so to speak, meaning the order and flow of events within the tone generation process.

Reverb, Chorus, and the "DSP" or "Variation" effects are "system" effects, meaning the specific Reverb Type or Chorus Type that you choose is going to be applied to the keyboard's entire system, or to all voices and parts; for example, you cannot choose one Reverb Type for one part, and a different Reverb Type for a different part, although you can control the effect's "send level" or "depth" for each individual part.

In contrast, an "insertion" effect is applied to a specific part-- at least, that's how I understand it. There's a pair of illustrations in the XG specifications showing this.

Anyway, I think the references to "DSP 1," "DSP 2," "DSP 3," and so forth, are potentially ambiguous and hence prone to elicit confusion, since on the one hand these might refer to the different system effects (Reverb, Chorus, and Variation), but on the other hand they might refer to multiple insertion effects.

If I've gotten any of this wrong-- particularly in reference to "Variation" and "Insertion"-- then hopefully someone else will pipe up and set things straight!

[pjd]

Hi --

My understanding of the XG voice and effects architecture has evolved over time. Thus, I could easily botch something somewhere. :-)

One big take away... No matter what it says on the outside of your mid- to upper-range arranger keyboard, the sound engine inside conforms to the Yamaha XG architecture. as far as MIDI song and style sequencing is concerned.

There was a time -- let's say 20 years ago -- when Yamaha cared enough to describe XG and how to use it in understandable terms and language. The best description IMHO is the "Effect Edit Mode" chapter in the MU128 Owner's Manual. Yes, that's right, written in 1998.

If you want to work with XG, you need to read this chapter. Then compare the effects block diagram in the MU128 manual against the effect block diagram in the Reference Manual for your keyboard, e.g., page 113 of the PSR-S970 Reference Manual. The diagram in the Reference Manual will tell you have many of each kind of XG effect block you have (Reverb, Chorus, Variation, Insertion).

As Michael mentioned, problems arise in the way "DSP" is used as a term and/or a name. In the S970 diagram, for example, DSP1 is the XG Variation effect and all other DSPs (DSP2, DSP3 and DSP4) are XG Insertion effects.

Further confusion arises because the XG Variation effect has two exclusive modes: system and insertion. The mode affects the routing to and from the Variation effect block and affects the applicable level parameters along the routing path.

If you read the MU128 Owner's Manual, you'll see that Reverb, Chorus, Variation, Insertion 1 and Insertion 2 are distinct, configurable effect units.

In the Data List PDF, XG EFFECT1 refers to the Reverb, Chorus and Variation effect blocks. XG EFFECT2 refers to the XG Insertion effects. In the latter case, as Michael mentions, "The second byte of the address is considered as an Insertion effect number. n: insertion effect number (n = 0 to 2)."

Practically speaking, one can get freaking confused writing the Sy*** to do the job. I sure do! So, I use the Mixing console to check the actual assignment of effects while running the song or style. It's the only way to keep one's sanity!

Hope this helps to sort things out -- pj

[vlbrgt]

Hello,

To make it even harder to understand, with the arrival of the Genos, there is a change concerning the name of the DSP's.
Variation is no longer called DSP1. The Genos has Reverb, Chorus, Variation and DSP1 ... DSP20.
This only applies to the Genos so far.

Regards
Etienne

[Normanfernandez]

Block -- Part -- Category -- Type

F0-43-10-4C-03-10-0C-01-F7


F0-43-10-4C-03-01-00-5F-20-F7

I've understood This part Well ( PJ's Article)


The Parameters

Such as Comp Sustain -- Wah SW and so on....


How do i get the Sy*** for that??

Thanks Again.
Regards Norman

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[pjd]

Hi Norman --

This is where you need to consult the Data List PDF: Effect Type List and Effect Parameter List. Please see attached images.

The Effect Type List (at least in the Genos PDF) identifies the effect algorithm associated with an effect preset. In your example, the effect preset name is "Multi FX Distortion Solo" and the algorithm is "MULTI FX". Unfortunately, Yamaha mangles the effect preset names to fit the display, e.g., "MltDistSolo".

Once you know the effect algorithm, "MULTI FX", look for its list of parameters in the Effect Parameter List section of the Data List PDF. There you will find a description of the parameters and importantly, the parameter number which you need to plug into the Sy*** message.

-- pj


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[Normanfernandez]

Pj, I've Understood that part. 

But settings such as Wet and Dry.

It how do I get those settings?
In Sy***

[Normanfernandez]

We can Store 10 settings under User

Can I access that Via Sy***?

[pjd]

Once you have the effect information, then you can build the Sy*** messages needed to program one or more parameters as needed.

Let's say you're programming an XG Insertion effect (EFFECT2). The parameters have the addresses:

03 nn 02    INSERTION EFFECT PARAMETER 1
03 nn 03    INSERTION EFFECT PARAMETER 2
03 nn 04    INSERTION EFFECT PARAMETER 3
03 nn 05    INSERTION EFFECT PARAMETER 4
etc.

Further, let's say that you want to set INSERTION EFFECT PARAMETER 1 to decimal 64 (hex 0x40):

F0 43 10 4C 03 nn 02 40 F7

where "nn" is the DSP unit number (indexed from zero). So, if it's DSP 2, then the complete Sy*** is:

F0 43 10 4C 03 01 02 40 F7

Please keep my previous comments about DSP numbers in mind. I suggest checking the DSP assignment in the Mixing Console. Given the ambiguity of Yamaha's documentation, I may be off by one.

You probably picked up on it, but each effect unit is a separate piece of hardware and each unit must be programmed individually. That's why the XG EFFECT2 Sy*** message explicitly specifies the DSP unit number.

All the best -- pj

P.S. Please other folks, proofread the messages and I'll make corrections. It's early and I'm under-caffeinated. :-)

[pjd]

We can Store 10 settings under User

Can I access that Via Sy***?

Not that I know of. Anyone? Bueller?

-- pj

[Normanfernandez]

I did some Crazy tests
And I can say
It highly unlikely that it's possible.

As soon as I'm Free I'll give my Results.
Also a certain problem / flaw within the Keyboard.

[Normanfernandez]

Here's my short summary of how the User DSP works

It automatically makes the Sy***,

On the keyboard it may show that it's Using User X

But there's no MSB LSB Or anything you can access it..

I'll have to try something On Mix Master Copy and Paste

I think I read this in PJ's article
Where it's easy to Copy and Paste.

Thanks for all the Support.

If I have any more issues.
I'll post it here

Regards Norman!

[SeaGtGruff]

I wonder if a user DSP is similar to a user voice in how it works-- that is, rather than having a unique ID of its own, it's really just a preset DSP ID followed by whatever parameter settings were edited by the user? What gets recorded in a song file if you select one of the user DSPs for the song?