S670: How to record short repeatable sequences?

[tomsixtwo]

I've owned an S670 for a week now. In this short time I already had many success experiences. The sounds are mostly great, the settings are deep enough (but not overcomplicated) and I like the feeling of the keybed. I even built my first own voices using the Expansion Manager Actually, the S670 is a well-balanced product and it seems to be perfect for my needs.

However, I have massive difficulties recording sequences. My use case is so simple: I want to record four or eight bars of accompaniment, run it as an endless loop and then improvise to it.

I just can't do it, neither with Quick Recording, nor with the Song Creator. No matter how exactly I press the stop button, there is always a gap in the recording. Unfortunately, I can't use A/B-Repeat to fix the loop, because this function always inserts a one bar metronome count-in at the beginning (I googled about the "A/B issue", found a lot of frustrated posts about this topic (also in this forum), but no solution).

I've tried everything and I'm just so desperate that I'm thinking about returning the keyboard. I would appreciate your help, because the S670 is (apart from my problem) so great. It can't be that so a simple task isn't possible with this keyboard.

[tomsixtwo]

Wow, what a comprehensive answer. Thank you very much, Roy.

I was afraid of all that. But it is as it is, even though I don't want to believe that my application is unusual for keyboards.

My hope was that I made a mistake in the operation. There is the Song Repeat function (e.g. Single) which repeats a song. If a song is only a few bars long, it should still work properly. But it doesn't. Either I don't get the end of the recording correctly (I really tried a lot and pressed the stop button in the exact timing) or the S670 needs a certain reaction time before it repeats the song. Maybe for technical reasons.

Then I have to bite the bullet and say goodbye to the S670

Single finger chords and styles are a great way to quickly discover new chord sequences. Therefore a workstation (e.g. the MOXF6) is out of the question. I would also go for the next bigger model (S775). There is a Step Record (ingeniously also for Multipads), which gives me the exact control over the song length. But I'm afraid that this model also has a gap when repeating songs.

So, here is my question to the owners of the S775/975: Are a single song repeated smooth when Song Repeat is set to Single?

[Ed B]

Tom
Not sure what you are trying to do to create music but the 670 is not a loop station. That said, styles are basically short 4 to 8 bar phrases that repeat or loop . They consist of drums, bass, etc..  eight sections in total using midi channels 8 to 16. You can turn these off individually or use the complete accompaniment. In essence they loop continuously. Why not just improvise over the style or a channel of the style?

If you really want to do what you are suggesting you can use a multipad which has 4 sections and you can set it to loop continuously and it can be as long as you want. Each section is one channel and all can play together. They can be played from the accompaniment section. They are assigned to channels 5 to 8. 
You can also using the song creator build up a song, using multi-tracking, one channel at a time until you have a complete song but each track is generally the length of the song.
With the arranger you have a palette of musical sounds to create whatever genre you desire.

Regards
Ed B

[panos]

Hi Tom,
If you wish to loop just chords then record a 10+ minutes song with those 3-4 chords.
Make sure you record at a low tempo so you can play the chords at the correct timing.
Then save the song at the speed you wish.
Now you can improvise the melody with your right hand.
The chords will be repeatable at least for 10 minutes (or longer if you have the patience.I don't know how many bars a keyboard can record at a time)

If you wish to impovise to chord progression just pick a style,play chords and write down those who fit together and you like(as you probably allready did).

[tomsixtwo]

Thank you all for your help. I have accepted that the S670 can't do what I want it to do.

Today I went to a local keyboard dealer and told him my problems. We tried different things. In the end, he was also disappointed that something so simple isn't possible with Yamaha keyboards. He is very friendy and will unpack a S775 tomorrow to see if this keyboard will fulfil my expections.

As soon as I got feedback from him, I will decide ... and report here 

[panos]

Tom I don't know if Mix Master is any helpful to your needs.
It was made especially for editing midi files from Yamaha keyboards on a pc and after you edit your midi file on your pc you can play it on your keyboard without loosing the voices and midi events as they were recorded on your psr.

https://psrtutorial.com/MB/mixMaster.html

[Fred Smith]

I don't understand why you say your problem can't be solved.

Why don't you just record a multipad, and put it on repeat?

Cheers,
Fred

[tomsixtwo]

Thank you for your kind suggestion, panos. I already own a DAW (Ableton Live). I want to use an arranger keyboard to have nothing to do with computers when I relax from work 

I don't understand why you say your problem can't be solved.

Why don't you just record a multipad, and put it on repeat?

That could actually be a solution. But as far as I understand the manual, it's not possible to record the accompaniment as multipad.

UPDATE: I just tried it, the accompaniment is played but not recorded

[Normanfernandez]

Tom I don't know if Mix Master is any helpful to your needs.
It was made especially for editing midi files from Yamaha keyboards on a pc and after you edit your midi file on your pc you can play it on your keyboard without loosing the voices and midi events as they were recorded on your psr.

https://psrtutorial.com/MB/mixMaster.html

Hello Panos,
On a Subject of Repeat.
Is it possible to
Copy and Paste all the notes from all the Channels. And paste them to create a extended song.
Also I'm having a slight trouble with Copy and Paste. 
( I'll note down my Exact Problems and put it on the forum next)
Regards Norman.

[SeaGtGruff]

I have no experience with Multi Pads-- since none of my Yamaha keyboards have that feature-- so I don't know if the following is doable.

Yamaha uses some MIDI messages which can be used to select a given Style, switch to a given section, and even switch to a given key and chord type.

I think Mix Master understands these messages, so you can probably record a Multi Pad, save it to a file, import it into Mix Master, add the messages for selecting the desired Style, section changes, and chord changes, save the modified file, and load it back into the keyboard to be used as a Multi Pad.

[overover]

@tomsixtwo
Hi Tom,

I just sent you a PM, but I forgot to add the subject "German Yamaha Keyboard Forum".


Best regards,
Chris

[panos]

The mulipad can record just a right hand voice and not the accompaniment.
So it just recorded nothing because you didn't play anything with your right hand.

Unless you create an audio multipad,but is there an option for the audio multipadpad to be reapetable as normal multipads?

I was thinking of recording just 4 bars with the song rec button,lets say each bar has a different chord.
When you record the 4 bars just press stop record.
Now go to  usb audio player and record your midi song as a wav file.
Use the A_B repeat indicators to repeat the wav file.
At least now you can repeat the wav file without a blak bar, but you have to be pretty accurate with the B indicator.
Use the repeat mode 1 next to OFF for repeating the audio file.

[Pino]

No need to change your keyboard
That S670 is the same as all other Yamaha arrangers,

Nothing in Song Creator will work as a loop,

On YAMAHA arrangers we have a style with 4 variations
Each one A B C D is a sequence of looped bars (2 bars - 32 bars)

Let's  assume you want a short sequence of 4 bars
Select a style with a suitable drum beat for your sequence
Go to Style Creator, Var A, delete each and every track that you don't want
Start recording your sequence,
Already got the drums, you have 6 other tracks for recording anything you want
Save your sequence/style
You have 3 other sequences you can work with B C & D,

If I was happy with that sequence on Var A,
I would load that style to 'Stylemagic', delete everything apart from Var A
Now the only light that's turned on is Var A.
Or you may want to copy Sequence A to B C & D and add a little more detail
Then you have 4 sequences, now we're back to making styles.

These sequences will loop without any timing problems.

Nothing could be easier and Style Creator is an ok place to work

Pino


Page 57. S670 User Manual

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[Pino]

Well, better Tom come back and explain exactly what he wants
This is what I read in his initial post

My use case is so simple: I want to record four or eight bars of accompaniment, run it as an endless loop and then improvise to it.

Yes, a chord sequencer would do the trick but no point in dreaming Yamaha hasn't got one,
The next best thing is a style part.

Pino.

[Pino]

Oops, did someone delete a post 🤔

[DerekA]

No need to change your keyboard
That S670 is the same as all other Yamaha arrangers,

Not quite true - Tyros and Genos can set markers within a MIDI playback, and loop eternally between them.

[EileenL]

Yes this is done quite easily on keyboards from the Tyros and Genos range.

[Pino]

DerekA
I was referring to the 'Style Creator', same on all keyboards.

Yes, the tyros has a markers but he has a s670
And maybe upgrade to S970

What's wrong with going to 'Style Creator' and putting your tracks down?

[DerekA]

Pino - using Style Creator is a good way to build up a looping backing track from scratch.

I may be wrong - but I suspect the OP wants to do a "quick record" of a style plus a melody line, over 8 bars, then loop that.

[tomsixtwo]

Thanks again for all the advice, you all are great 

This is what I read in his initial post

My use case is so simple: I want to record four or eight bars of accompaniment, run it as an endless loop and then improvise to it.

Yes, a chord sequencer would do the trick but no point in dreaming Yamaha hasn't got one,
The next best thing is a style part.

Please excuse me if I haven't explained this clearly. English is not my native language.

I don't want to create or record a style. I simply want to play the accompaniment and record it as a short song and then play it as a loop.

For testing purposes, I have created a 4 bar chord sequence in Ableton Live with an exact beginning and end. Then I imported the resulting MIDI file into the S670. When I now set Song Repeat to SINGLE, I hear the gap between the repetitions again. So it's definitely not my timing, the S670 just needs a short pause (approx. 2 sec.) between the repetitions.

Soon I will try the S775. It doesn't seem to work with repeating there either, but at least I should be able to enter chord sequences very quickly via Step Record.

[panos]

Here is an example of what Tom wants to do:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/11qV7MXBGicLUO8XMWRqoh1GnRe9Vd2KM/view?usp=sharing

You can hear the style playing with chords for just one time.
Now lets say we want to repeat this chord progression without keep recording the same pattern over and over again.
It is something that people do in DAW's in order to save time.
Copy and paste the same pattern and add new ones where is needed.

[patrickm]

Somebody in my church does this in Yamaha PSR650 we use at church. He plays and record shortly the chords, bass and style and the keyboard plays forever. If its doable in PSR S650, it should be more better in S670.

Its just that he quieted playing in my church for other churches and we are far away from each other.

[tyrosaurus]

Hi tomsixtoo,

So far you have been trying to achieve your goal using a MIDI recording.  However if you record your short backing sequence as audio using the USB Audio function, you would be able to try the A-B repeat audio playback function. This was suggested by Panos earlier but you do not appear to have tried it.

When playing back an audio file on the keyboard you can set Repeat Points for the start and end of a section of the song, and then the song will repeat that section continuously.  These repeat points have to be set 'on the fly' in real time as the song is playing.

When you record your sequence, it might make it easier to set the repeat points as the song plays if you include a 'count in' intro (Intro 1) at the start and an extra, unwanted bar or two at the end of the sequence.

This function is explained at the bottom of page 71 of the PSR-S670 Owner's Manual (English version) in the section 'Playback Related Operations'.

Unfortunately, although the song is obviously already saved after recording it and can be recalled at any time, you can't save the A and B repeat points anywhere, so you would need to set them each time that you start the song.  I don't know if the points are remembered if you pause and resume the song during playback.

Unfortunately my Tyros4 does not have this audio A-B repeat function  so I can't say how easy it is to set up correctly or if the repeat is 'seamless', but it might be worth a try to see if it does what you want and how convenient or otherwise it is!


Regards

Ian

[tomsixtwo]

Unfortunately my Tyros4 does not have this audio A-B repeat function  so I can't say how easy it is to set up correctly or if the repeat is 'seamless', but it might be worth a try to see if it does what you want and how convenient or otherwise it is!

Tyrosaurus, I tried the audio repeat. Unfortunately, it's not an option for me: You have to start the audio recording manually (no synchronized start when playing the first note). You have to set the both markers in realtime, there is no chance to fine adjust the markers afterwards. It's for complete songs, not for repeatable phrases. Beside this, you get often clicks, if you don't hit the zero crossings in the audio recording.

Since I can still return the S670, I will do that. I'll see if the S775 are more suitable for my purpose. Or I'll wait for the successor of the S670, that shouldn't take long. Maybe Yamaha has learned from his competitors

Once again many thanks to all of you for your many suggestions and ideas.

[SeaGtGruff]

I've heard about this same issue/request many times over the years with regard to the PSR-E models. Since it was brought up by different people, they all weren't necessarily wanting to do the same thing, but the general request is to be able to select part of a MIDI song file and loop it while the keyboardist-- and possibly other band members-- play solos and jam along to the loop.

Eileen said that this can be done on the Tyros and Genos models. I would have thought that it could also be done on the PSR-S models without the insertion of the extra count-off measure at the beginning of each iteration of the loop, since the PSR-S models don't have the Yamaha Education Suite (or Y.E.S.), and I thought that the A-B Repeat with the count-off measure was a function of the Y.E.S. feature.

Anyway, a Style might appear to be an ideal alternative, but the keyboardist still wants to play the MIDI song normally both before and after the looped portion-- so if a Style were to be used, it would probably require a lengthy Intro that plays all of the song that comes before where the loop is to begin, as well as a lengthy Ending that plays all of the song that comes after the loop, which is doable. However, a Style has only 8 parts (or channels), whereas a Song has up to 16 parts, so aside from the problem of having to take a MIDI song file and convert it into a Style with a very long Intro, a Main loop, and a very long Ending, there's also the problem of trying to squeeze up to 16 channels of a "backing track" into no more than 8 Style parts, which might not be feasible. Plus, the band might change their minds about which portion of the song they want to loop-- for instance, do they want to take turns playing solos between the second and third verses, or after the fourth instance of the chorus, or do they want to skip the solos entirely and just play the "short version" of the song, etc.?

So creating a Style doesn't offer the no-muss-no-fuss solution of spontaneously choosing the starting and ending points of a portion of a song and then looping it for an arbitrary length of time.

As far as copying-and-pasting in a DAW, that's also dependent on looping a predetermined section of the song, not to mention playing the loop for a predetermined number of iterations.

[Pino]

Yes, your right, I went down the wrong path when I read 'recording an 8 bar sequence',
there was no mention of a chord sequencer,

I have a Korg in my studio, I'm very familiar with a chord sequencer.
He has a 670, upgrading to 970 wont solve this problem.
Yamaha PSR does not have a chord sequencer

He'll just have to keep playing them chords and improvise over.
If this feature is important then I would return the keyboard.

Pino

[SeaGtGruff]

I wouldn't call it a chord sequencer, since the request as it's usually made is to arbitrarily loop a section of a MIDI song file, not to record a sequence of chords that will drive an accompaniment or style.

The PSR-E and PSR-S models can do this, EXCEPT they insert a count-in bar before each iteration of the loop.

Eileen has said that the Tyros and Genos can loop part of a song without inserting a count-in bar.

I haven't been able to check on a PSR-E463/PSR-EW410, but the way the A-B Repeat function is described in the Owner's Manual sounds as though the count-in bar is NOT inserted, which-- if that's indeed the case, which I haven't verified yet-- suggests that Yamaha has seen where people have posted about this issue in the past and they've made a change in the A-B Repeat function in response to those posts. It also suggests-- again, if it's indeed the case-- that Yamaha considers the ability to loop part of a MIDI song WITHOUT inserting a count-in bar to be a useful thing.

EDIT: PS -- I would say that the song recorder on the PSR-E models is basically a chord sequencer, at least as far as recording a style is concerned, since the style isn't actually recorded, just the chord changes and section changes. So IF the A-B Repeat function has been changed in the PSR-E463/PSR-EW410 to drop the count-in bar from in front of the looped section, you could record an accompaniment track complete with section changes and chord progressions, then loop a particular chord progression in the manner of a chord sequencer (if I understand what you mean by that term).

[DerekA]

Since I can still return the S670, I will do that. I'll see if the S775 are more suitable for my purpose. Or I'll wait for the successor of the S670, that shouldn't take long. Maybe Yamaha has learned from his competitors

I don't think the S775 (or even S975) will give you what you want either.

[pjd]

Hi tomsixtwo --

I get what you're saying. Here's a little background information that might encourage you to reconsider making a style.

A Yamaha style file is actually a MIDI file with a particular structure and some extra Yamaha-specific stuff inside. If you rename a style file and give it the ".MID" extension, then you can open the style in a DAW.

The extra Yamaha stuff tells the arranger about the parts (MIDI channels) in the style: chord root note, chord type, and how (or if) to transpose. Unfortunately, DAWs throw away the Yamaha stuff, called "CASM" information. The CASM information is easily added or changed using one of the free PSR style/MIDI editing tools available on-line.

You've got a MIDI file from Ableton Live. It just needs to be transformed into a style. Maybe take a look at Jørgen Sørensen's midi2style program:

http://www.jososoft.dk/yamaha/software/software.htm

Since the chord progression is cooked into the MIDI file, this would be similar to creating what Yamaha calls a "DJ Style". A style section (e.g., MAIN A) is just a repeating loop after all.

Just a thought and I hope this helps.

-- pj

[panos]

A style can play a "looped" chord progression Roy if you know how to set properly the parameters in style creator.
Usually Yamaha's Intro's 3 & Ending's 3 have a chord progression based on the first chord you play.
But it is a kind of hard thing to achieve even with midi2style.
Same kind of parameters have to be assigned there as in style creator.
E.g "NTT:Root Trance and NTR: Melody" for all parts of the style except drums.
So in that case I would "study" the parameters are used in an intro 3 by Yamaha.