Gig locations with too much inherent reverb

[Kaarlo von Freymann]

In another thread I read:
"But why do you all have this habit of putting reverb everywhere and in such large quantities? it's porridge!"  How true  Sorry cannot find now who coined this phraze,

Same porridge at location you play at that have too much reverb increasing the level of back ground noise  generated by the audience  dancing and talking to a point  you cannot hear what you play. Normally you might raise the volume of your playing to "beat the back ground noise", but in above case it makes things worse.
I use  noise cancelling wired Bose in ear phones,  (Strangely the sound is better when noise cancelling is on, compared to when it is off).  But my vocalist would need wireless ones just as she uses a wireless mic, and the ones I have been offered are very expensive, some are blue tooth which always has a delay which does not impair listening experience but is unuseable in a live situation.
Has anyone found found a good and not too expensive solution to this problem ?
Please post how you tackle this problem.

Cheers

Kaarlo

[Lee Batchelor]

Hi Kaarlo,

There are several a few ways to handle echoic rooms:
1) Avoid corners – never set up in a corner of the room. The 90 degree corner acts as a bass loader or primitive horn. So much of the mud in echoic rooms is caused by bass.
2) Keep the volume low – in any room, people always try to talk over the music. Musicians raise their volume so people can hear the music. Then, people talk louder. It becomes a vicious cycle. The greater the volume in an echoic room, the worse the sound. Resist the urge to overpower a crowd. And when people come and say they can't hear the music, tell them to put the party in a decent room next time!
3) Try shooting across the room – a lot of the times a small stage is set up for the band. If the room is long and narrow, ask if you can set up roughly midway (not dead center) and shoot across the room. In other words, you want to shoot the shortest distance. Typically, you only want to feed the louder sound to the dance floor. The outer sitting areas should only receive listening levels, if possible.
4) When you're on a raised stage, try to aim your speakers directly at the peoples' heads. The people act as a natural sound absorber. In other words, try not to shoot at another solid surface. This idea is less important with Bose speakers or other similar designs. Horn loaded speakers are harder to deal with.

I've been designing and building loudspeakers as a hobby for 45 years. A general premise in reproducing good sound is "opposite surfaces should be of opposite materials."

There's a few hints for you ...Lee

[Yinon]

Lee- great comments.

Kaarlo -
You never mentioned which speakers you are using for PA?
I'm asking since some PA systems tend to be muddy at the low mid's which may increase your issue.

There are few speakers systems these days designed to reduce the mud and distribute the sound naturally the room.

Cheers.

[Lee Batchelor]

Hi Yinon,

I use two or three Bose L1 Compacts, depending on the size of the venue. For heavier bass, I integrate the subwoofer I designed specifically for the Compacts. Bose doesn't offer one for the L1 Compacts.

I've used several other horn speakers but have found the Bose to be the best. One thing I forgot to mention - the background music coming from the Genos or other keyboard is always secondary to clear vocals. I use a mixer that has a sweepable midrange frequency control. Mixers with ordinary midrange knobs are very limited.

[Yinon]

Hi Lee,

Most times I use 2 L1 compact myself. :-) I also have EV's ZX12 and 18"Sub for bigger events.

Which Sub are you using with the L1's?

[Yinon]

Sorry ...     
I just read it in your current gear signature .... please disregard :-)

[Lee Batchelor]

No worries, Yinon. Yes, I designed and built my own sub. It has no crossover. Instead, I drive it with a Behringer iNuke6000. It has settable high and low pass filters, parametric EQ, settable crossovers, and active EQ. It drives an Eminence 15 inch bass driver. Very nice mix.

Wow, 18 inch sub! That's a beast!

[Kaarlo von Freymann]

Hi Kaarlo,

1) Avoid corners – never set up in a corner of the room. The 90 degree corner acts as a bass loader or primitive horn. So much of the mud in echoic rooms is caused by bass.

2) Keep the volume low – in any room, people always try to talk over the music. Musicians raise their volume so people can hear the music. Then, people talk louder. It becomes a vicious cycle. The greater the volume in an echoic room, the worse the sound. Resist the urge to overpower a crowd. And when people come and say they can't hear the music, tell them to put the party in a decent room next time!

3) Try shooting across the room – a lot of the times a small stage is set up for the band. If the room is long and narrow, ask if you can set up roughly midway (not dead center) and shoot across the room. In other words, you want to shoot the shortest distance. Typically, you only want to feed the louder sound to the dance floor. The outer sitting areas should only receive listening levels, if possible.

4) When you're on a raised stage, try to aim your speakers directly at the peoples' heads. The people act as a natural sound absorber. In other words, try not to shoot at another solid surface. This idea is less important with Bose speakers or other similar designs. Horn loaded speakers are harder to deal with.

I've been designing and building loudspeakers as a hobby for 45 years. A general premise in reproducing good sound is "opposite surfaces should be of opposite materials."

There's a few hints for you ...Lee

Wow Lee,  what a fantastic  "what to do and what not to do" list you took the trouble to amass. THANKS.  "The 90 degree corner acts as a bass loader",  I never understood that nore  (if I understand you correctly) that it is not optimal to be at one end of a long room having the people who dance in front of you and those chatting sitting at the opposite end of the room.  You mention a "sweepable midrange frequency control", do I  understand the terminology correctly,  one where you can define the middle frequency and narrownes of the band you boost or cut, also called parametric ?    I use Genelec studio monitors which actually have micro switches to boost or cut several frequencies. That helps when I have a mic feed back problem, but I  have not felt that helps  with the reverb problem.
I have always felt playing at garden parties outside to be the best possible accoustic environment. Been telling people "its so nice the noise I generate does not comes back to bother me, it is lost in space" but in our climate that is possible max 3 and a half month,

Cheers

Kaarlo

[Lee Batchelor]

Hi Kaarlo,

The sweepable midrange control is not exactly like parametric EQ. With parametric EQ, you choose the desired frequency, and then decide how far on either side of that frequency or the frequency range, you want to affect. This is called the Quality factor or Q, which has a range of 1 to 10. A high Q number (10) affects the frequency and a very narrow frequency on either side of the chosen frequency. A low Q such as 1 or 2, affects a much broader range on either side of the chosen frequency. In the pic, frequency number 2 looks to have a Q of about 5. Frequency number 3 appears to have a Q of about 9 or 10.


With a sweepable midrange control, there are two knobs – frequency and volume. You select the frequency but the Q is set. You then increase or decrease the volume of the chosen frequency. The best way to use a sweepable mid is to turn the volume of the sweepable midrange up to about 90 percent, and then slowly rotate the frequency knob until the cleanest sound is obtained. Then you back the volume down to reasonable levels. I use the sweepable midrange control mainly for vocals. It solves the problem of muddiness in the vocals.


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[Kaarlo von Freymann]

Thanks Lee,

glad I asked and good to have someone like you to ask. Learned somthing I was not aware of.  And it seems you helped 29 others also  as they downloaded your graphics.

Cheers

Kaarlo