nearly out of turmoil now

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi john
Flaming computers are a total waste of time sometimes and we do not need crashes or lockups in this day and age.
I personally think computers are good for about 5 years and then get another one.
I purchased a new one with plenty of headroom this time.


All the best
john

[markstyles]

Your room where you listen, has a fair amount of impact on it.  Chances are your room is altering the sound, and you over compensate.  If the mixes sound decent in your room, but consistantly boomy in other listening environments, you need to lower the bass when mixing down. Foam de-coupling of speakers on stand for studio monitors is an issue. The shape of your room is very important.  Low frequency sound waves, have much more powers, and can move around objects, they bounce off the walls, multiple times. Hi frequency sound waves get absorbed, and don't bounce around as much.

If speakers are too close to a wall, the wall also acts like a speaker effect.  I had Mackie 825's for a while, and my mixes sounded great in my room, but pretty boomy in other situations.  I had the money and bought a pair of Genelecs. Sound improved radically.
However you don't have to spend a fortune, on speakers. You have to 'fine-tune' your ears, to be more perceptive.  So you can compensate in your mixes. Some engineers, will put a final bit of high end, on the output, or some bass roll-off, or even a notch in the mid-range.  Listen to your instrument carefully.  Often guitars, may have a moderate amount of low end, which sounds good, but when you add a bass, it starts to get muddy. I might roll off some bottom end, or notch on each of the guitar.

Being a recording engineer for decades of my life in professional studios, gives me an advantage in that department.  In actuality, Yamaha has done an incredible job, of sound engineering.  Their products consistantly give a better homogenous mix, (in part because of their EQ'ing, and use of limiter).  Yes, sometimes, you might want to change or shut off the limiter, but in general, their settings are a good all around balance. 

It's been quite a while since I used the Mackie speakers, if there is a low end roll off, try switching that in, Google some articles on sound mixing. you should find some helpful  tips.  re-positioning the speakers..A perfect rectangle room, is a hard place to mix, because of the sound bouncing around.  I bought some foam squares, placed them in strategic places. The foam cylinders placed will weaken the power of bouncing low sound waves.

An old trick, is to keep lowering the master volume, and carefully listen to the mix.  As you keep lowering notice what is left.  If all you hear at the lowest settings is bass, drums, lower their volume. The best mix is a compromise.  You want the mix to sound good on as many systems as possible.  For years I worked at a nightclub.  I would often have the DJ play my mixes in the beginning of the night, so I could compare them to other commercial releases.  I freaked out at first, cause my mixes were so bass heavy. I compensated, by lowering the low end. So they did not sound their best, on my home system, but still passible. When played in the club. they sounded decent.  I also began to notice, how many songs played in clubs, were not the best mixes.  Often hip-hop music will have extremely loud drums, bass.  Much more than suits my taste. But that is part of the style of hip-hop. Also those mixes sound better on boom-boxes and earbuds.

As a fine tuning of your ears, listen to as many commercial mixes as possible. Especially music thru the decades. Notice songs, where the snare drum is really too loud.  The 80's music made a lot of use of loud 'gated' snare drums.  But now, it just sounds so weird. Our ears have become conditioned to the current acceptable sounds. 

Find music you really like, plug it into your system, and play your song, Although keys, tempos will clash listen to the balance of each instrument. Sometimes when working on a song, I get used to a certain, mix, balance, and then a few days later, I pull up the song, and think, 'damn, that kick drum is just way too loud. But I couldn't hear it before.

The performer will focus on their instrument, the guitar player will want his instrument to be the loudest, singer his voice etc.
When you mix-down. You have to stop being subjective, and become objective.  You don't want to favor the instrument you play.
For instance, some musicians, a bit insecure about their abilities, (I'm not the best electric piano player), will subconsciously lower the electric piano.  Mixing, mastering is an art form in itself.  Like any talented person, they often spend most of their life, mastering their craft.  It is forever a learning, listening, modifying process.

Hope this gives your some ideas to ponder. 

Those of us here are usually playing all the parts, because of the nature of arranger instruments.

[pjd]

Another thing that is baffling me is Cubase and the way It treats Midi.
I put my song Into cubase to tighten It up a little and when stopping to edit all is ok, but If I start again the volume of the gm drums goes up considerately. If I go back to the beginning and start again all is ok. I am using a user style and It seems to go back to the preset style, that is if you start and stop anywhere in the song. Strange anomaly, but I will have to compare In Mixmaster .
When editing midi It does change the lead sounds if you have played all of the lead on the top line track. I suppose if you start anywhere but the start with midi, It has to read the program changes. Sometimes you get strange instruments taking over until you restart or go back to the last sound on the same track line.

Hi John --

When I hear behavior like this, I scan each track from beginning to end in a MIDI list editor. I look for MIDI CC events like expression (CC#11), volume (CC#7), Bank change (CC#0 and CC#32), and Program Change. Yamaha's style sections sometimes contain program (patch) changes. I clean out any events that look suspicious or unwanted.

Same is true if I'm working with a commercial MIDI Song file. Some MIDI files are clean with all CC#7, pan and patch change at the beginning, a few are nightmares. 

BTW, I've been updating a few Alan Parson's songs (very old TUNE 1000 MIDI files). Great stuff to jam to.

All the best -- pj

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Pjd
I will look again what you have said  ana I will reply to mark styles tomorrow as I wrote a long reply and lost it in Hyperspace after I pressed the wrong button

This Is where I have got with mixing , but I hope the playing Is ok

My version of  Alan parson project     https://soundcloud.com/silver-machine/eye-in-the-sky-and-really-sirius//

all the best
John

Ps I am thinking of getting some Yamaha hs 7 monitors and some decent open back headphones to complete my setup for mixing.
Do I need a dac for good quality headphones or just an amplifier?? or ok on their own like Beyer Dynamics or Akg , or Audio Techna and would the Yamaha hs 7 out strip my small old Tapco monitors.
I got some spare money for improvements ,but do I really need what I have been looking at??
My DXR 8's are great for listening and playng music

[soundphase]

(Some mixing short trainings on internet : https://www.youtube.com/channel/UClzweVW0WDL1HbMt0OtR33w

Soundphase)

[Tommy 73]

John try and stay away from rear ported monitors if you are close to a wall as this can create problems with lower frequency which should not be there... recently I helped a friend change and set up his home studio where we had several pairs of monitors back and forth for demo... what stood out from the crowd where the Focal Alpha's which where purchased and the Yamaha HS series where included in the long line-up of brands we tried... BUT this is all very subjective as every one can tell you what they think is best (or not) so really at this stage john to help you i would find a dealer with a good selection of monitors etc you can try for your self and hopefully a good knowledgeable sales person to help... just as a side note to go with the above... headphones.. then AKG spring to mind and Audio Interface..if you are on a budget then the New crop of Focusrite come out on test very well 

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Tommy
I think that is good advice for me this time and that is test them out at a dealer.
I think now front ported speakers for monitors would be best for my room, so Focal Alpa is worth looking at.
I think also for siitting close the small ones would be sufficient.
The Tapco's that I have are not that good.
If the Focals are anything like the demo I seen It would far out weigh the Tapcos as the clarity accross the stereo field on drums only sounded impressive.
But you do not know whether the demo recordings have been flowered up for the selling tactic.
So I will go for something like the Focals and get some good headphones also for working with so I do not to annoy my other half In the lounge looking at the box.
With the headphones I keep reading that you need a dac amp to bring the best out of good headphones and open back Is recommended for mixing. The Beyer Dynamics look good and so does the Audio techna and AKG's from reports.
I do have some old akg 301 extra headphones and you have to turn the Genos up well over half way to get a decent volume.
I do have a focusrite 6i6 and have put the headphones through them and they sound pretty good to me. They would be ok In that situation for vst and daw. You have to have the computer switched on for that though. Going through the Genos you do not have to have the computer switched on all the time.
I thing my Akg's are better for pleasure listening and not mixing. But i do know that it Is better to mix on monitors and then adjust for headphones.
As you see I am all unsure about a few things and the only trouble now is expensive mistakes
The other way Is through the Genos.
At the moment My Genos Is going through the Focusrite 6i6 and to computer with a little fat boy controller in the chain.
For working with the Genos only I do not switch the Focusrite 6i6 on as the Yamaha driver sorts that out when using the computer to edit.
When recording then the Focusrite 6i6 Is switched on.
Well I am only a bedroom musician ,I think!!!   That producers book you mentioned  was £28 originally. You can pick It up at Amazon for just over £5 now

I am forgetting music today . Going hopefully to see Swindon Town hammer MK Dons   (the franchise)  English league division 2   COYR!! "Come On You REDS"!!
We are probably Vauxhall conference bound . Nice sunny day to get out and about!!
We have that 'orrible Oxford United above us!!!

All the best
John

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Mark

Big thanks for your in depth explanation, much appreciated.
I will of course listen to as many commercial mixes for comparisons.
The thing is getting used to listening to music with flat response equipment.
It has taken me some time to get the hang of It as my old Tapco monitors are not the best In the world.
They have always sounded boxy to me..
I am going to look at the Focus Alpha speakers at a dealer and some decent headphones.
Thank you for your sharing your experience and some great advice there.
All I can do now is keep trying my best and hopefully things will improve a lot.
The trouble now is Mark that at 67 ,I do not have another 50 years left.
I will have to get a move on


All the best
John

Ps The good news is that the Rolling Stones are still going strong!!!   "There's hope yet"

[Tommy 73]

I think john once you find a dealer who is willing to understand your setup and needs (where I am conscious of not suggesting too much here as I can not see or understand your setup completely) instead where some retailer's can sometimes only be interested in moving boxes... then expensive mistakes can be avoided...so perhaps avoid a busy day at the retailer and catch them on a quiet day so they can give you the time you need and deserve considering your efforts John (if I was round the corner i would come and help)...

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Tommy
well I have  delved and had a good look around
I looked all over the Internet about the best monitor speakers and Focus Alpha comes out tops every time with people.
A lot of people went for the Focus Alpa 65 and purchased a sub bass speaker and was not satisfied as the subs messed with the speakers .
So  they sent back the speakers and sub and exchanged them for focal Alpha 50s which have lots of all round  bass mid and treble and reporting  that you hear things that you never heard before in the mix
They would be perfect for nearfield monitoring in my room. Front ported as well.  My room is pretty good for sound as carpeted and brick built walls . I have attached a picture of my setup in room and area I sit in.
On opposite wall out of view is another computer for general internet use.
What you make of all the junk I have I do not know
I had a lead come yesterday as i linked up the behringer headphone amp which i purchased years ago  and It does make a lot of difference to my AKG 301 extras which i got In 2009.They say they have a flat response and also semi open backed. Good or bad ,I am not the expert on tha , but they sound clearer and more presence.
With the door closed I do not get any echo's which is a plus.
So I am thinking of getting those Focus Alpha 50s tomorrow as Gear For music up north of England are selling them at £187 a piece and they are over £220 in other places.
six year guarantee for an extra £10.
Seems a great deal.
Well I do not know what you make of  this, but here goes!!
I am getting shot of those Tapco S2's
Do you have to get a micro phone and use pink noise to tune the speakers in to your room.
Would not your ears do a better job to get the best triangle to sit in???
That Sonar works seem expensive though for a one off tune


All the best
John

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[Toril S]

Nice setup! I like the hat too😀

[Tommy 73]

 I don't think you will be disappointed with the focal's John I was very surprised with my friends pair and that's considering my own monitors cost many times more...they realy do a good job... as for the Sonarworks yes it's a bit pricey but it is active in your DAW and being used all the time so you must remember that you need to bypass the plugin each time you are exporting audio from your DAW. Otherwise the correction will be applied to your master bus mixdown. Note that the plugin is meant to calibrate your speakers and room just like acoustic treatment would. Failing to bypass the effect would mean adding the sonic anomalies of your system to the rendered audio.. the Sonarworks website blog covers all this...but you could probably do with a little acoustic treatment (acoustic foam panels) in your room looking at the photo John with or without Sonarworks... I look forward to here how you get on with the new monitors and don't forget some burn/running in time with the focal's as this is recommended...playing some music all day for about a week (not blasting) should do the job...

[Tommy 73]

John you can download a free trial of Sonarworks ref 4 but you do need there calibration microphone with its own serial number which have been individually calibrated....ask a retailer to loan you a demo Mic for that purpose so at least you can try before you buy...well worth ago John.... if you can not find a demo Mic from somewhere specifically for this software (you could get intouch with the company directly for help) PM me and we can sort something out for you if you get stuck . P.s. the Focal Alpha 50s  should be fine looking at your photo as
a nearfield 

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Tommy
One thing that is puzzling me with those Focus alpha monitors .
How do you adjust the volume on them when tuning in .?
I have looked at a spl meter and use pink noise to set them up, No volume knob!!
How do these things get power up .Is it down to the dial on the Genos and the monitors are full on or something???
Obviously I am missing a brick here short of a building set. Or I am One

Also I have seen the connections that are balanced leads ,but they look like a microphone socket one end which goes into the speaker and a jack the other end.
On all the photos I have seen it looks like a stereo jack not a mono one.
Can you put me right on this.


all the best
JOhn

[Tommy 73]

Ok ... monitor output from the back of your Focusrite to your Focal's then to help and make things easy for you I would get a Tc Electroinc Level Pilot which are £70 you could push for a deal when you purchues the Focals... this passive volume sits between your monitors inputs and your Focusrite monitor outputs....the lead you will need is TRS jack to XLR male... your Genos master volume is interdependent of the monitors and is only set inline with your audio interface and DAW for the correct levels.... the two black rings on the TRS jack end indicate that the cable is a balanced cable at both ends which you need (I'm guessing your Focusrite is a balanced output ?)

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[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Tommy
You will have to be patient with me a little as my head is going around.
At the moment My monitors are plugged into the Genos, So output of Genos to Monitors
I then have AUX out to IN of the focusrite and and OUT of focusrite back to AUX IN of Genos, then usb to computer which is my loop.
What is this passive thing and Is It necessary expense??
I would like to know how you would tune these in without a volume knob on each speaker.
I did not want to bother you or put you through this ,but I have looked all over and cannot find Info on this.
Also the end of the jack looks like a stereo  and not mono for each speaker.

I also do not use the focusrite all the time and just do midi editing between Genos and Cubase.
So the level pilot is a volume knob basically.
I am a little worried here as yes ,I have ordered some Focus Alpha 50s today and level pilots mean more flippin wires and gadgets
I am a little confused here!!


All the best
john

[Tommy 73]

No bother...so this is how you should be connected and your Focusrite has balanced inputs and outputs so this means that the 3 mental contact between the 2 black rings on the TRS jack will match the other 3 mental pins on the other XLR end...so the 3rd contact in the cable indicates you have a balanced cable which you need... so .... Genos to your Di then into your inputs (L/R) at the back of the Focusrite then the 1st pair of outputs (L/R) to your monitors with the TC level pilot inbetween and your 2nd outputs (L/R) to your DXR's with balanced cables through out ...that's one way to do it... when you want to just play through your Dxr10s use you Genos master volume

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[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Tommy
just quickly
This is a poor graphic version of my set up

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Tommy 73]

Oops....your have a monitor volume control on the Focusrite for output 1 and 2 so you DO NOT NEED the Tc level pilot my mistake sorry....so this Focusrite monitor volume knob will control your focal's volume output + the DXR....I'll check your drawing one moment......

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

.hi Tommy
Waiting to change the script!!

All the best
John

[Tommy 73]

Ok I'm not sure this would be my way to connect??

[Tommy 73]

No level pilot  needed my mistake

[Tommy 73]

I will do you a drawing John the way that I think will be good to connect and control all your gear one moment please

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Big thanks for your time Tommy.
ATB
John

[Tommy 73]

Ok very bad drawing but hopfuly you can follow.....

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[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Tommy
What is the DI box and It's function

All the Best
John

[Tommy 73]

I seam to recall you have a hum Eliminator (DI) from an earlier post I was involved in ??...turn your unbalanced genos audio signal into a balacnced audio output signal....

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi Tommy

Having a blond moment !!
Yes I have a behringer on the floor with out from Genos Into that and out to the DXrs.
Now I have to change that to the focusrite and then to DXr's
Hope that's right .
I have got to give you some free time soon.
So It means I have to have the focusrite box on for all things now. Not a big thing.
One thing that does make me wonder sometimes Is when I am In cubase and editing and go away for 5- 10 minutes for a cuppa and return, The focusrite box is not recognized sometimes and It is back to the old days again when I had to keep doing the same thing to my EMU 404 Usb.
You have to switch the box off and on again and your in business again.
I just wonder if the manufacturers deliberately neglect updating their drivers so you have to buy the second and third editions and so on..

Anyway that cheap behringer  hum eliminator works 100%  at £20.


All the best
John

All the Best  " I am getting old . Repeating myself here!!!  Oh dear!!
John

[Tommy 73]

Dont worry john once i start Somthing I like to follow it through to the end and get things right ....

[JohnS (Ugawoga)]

Hi tommy


So you reckon that Is the way to go.
If so I will give that a bash. Should get the Focal Alpha's Tuesday and order some leads.
Big thanks for helping me out Tommy, much appreciated.
Cant wait to get set up properly and I am sorry about not understanding some electronic terms .
It was my other half that said . What's that thing under your desk!!, I said uuuUUGH! "must be a di box"!!! I then twigged when ground lift was mentioned!!
Sandra reckons I spend too much on modifications as there is always something extra to buy. I do not worry I am happy In the man cave and she Is happy In the greenhouse and garden. We do like lots of walking and the yearly cruise which you have to lose a stone before you go on one 
Up to now I have been playing tunes straight through and doing minor editing and getting my head around cubase. That can be a headache sometimes but now with fast computers It It very stable.
Playing lots of different tunes Is essential for me as I am vitually at the stage of doing some of my own music.
After lots of practice the ideas start to come and life is easier figuring out the moves.
It Is that mixing that keeps haunting me. I just keep battling away and something has to give In the end.
At 67 I have to get my skates on!!   before I become a wavelength!!

All the Best
John     ps "Big thanks again M8"              I will keep you posted on my efforts