Search for a Keyboard, Part II

[Jay B.]

Hello Forum Members,

I joined last month and asked for your advice, which you freely gave on this thread > https://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php/topic,43072.0.html

I promised I would follow up, so here goes. I was unable to find a PSR-S970 or 770 to demo anywhere near me (Virgnia, USA). I was so desperate I ended up going to Canada to try one out. Okay, so I had to go to Toronto on business anyway [grin] and I got to play a 970 at length today. I am writing this to you from there as a matter of fact.

In the past few weeks, I have been able to play and demo a number of keyboards, including:  Yamaha PSR-EW300, DGX-660, Montage 7, MOXF8, MX88, and a Roland FA-08. I feel a little more qualified to discuss current keyboards now. PLUS, I found out that I can still play music! So here's my opinion after a couple of hours on the 970.

The Good
The instrument is quite remarkable, I must say. Yamaha has taken the arranger keyboard to a new level. I can only imagine what a Genos must play and sound like. Great sounds, a good variety of instruments and lot of music capability. I was able to use the accompaniments reasonably well and some of them were very impressive. I am sure with time, I could produce some very good music with this keyboard. I liked the live controls and the way the accompaniments transition from one version to another.

The Not-So-Good
Personally, the keybed did not feel good, which is difficult to accept given the price of the instrument. Switching between voices and styles, using splits and layers, etc. was not as intuitive as I would like, but that is a minor quibble. The big issue for me occurred as I continued to play the 970. I found myself not really wanting to use the accompaniments as much. I started wondering if an arranger is the right path for me. Why? I am not completely sure...

So what now?  The 970 made an impression on me - I am still considering it as a possibility. It would accelerate the arranging process, and would be a lot of fun to experiment with. That being said, my second pass at my "music life" is not about doing what I did before. Playing a lot of covers, requests, etc., or having to play a lot of styles that I don't prefer is not what this is about. Ultimately, I did not feel connected to this keyboard like I wanted to. There are a few more boards I want to try before I make a decision. I wish Yamaha produced a hybrid between the 970 and one of their 88-key pianos - like an advanced DGX-660. Unfortunately, I didn't like that instrument, so the search continues.

Jay B.

[MarcusAhlback]

Hi,
Given your background I can fully understand that it is a bit complicated to "connect" to a not weighted 61 keybed.
Is it out of the question to have a separate masterkeyboard/digital piano?
For example Casio have some very nice pianos at the pricerange starting from 700 USD.

And I think you're right that you need to make up your mind on what it is you want it for, and how you think you gonna use it.
Personally I think some of the major pros with my arranger (PSR-S770) is the ability to play covers and have a virtual backing-band instantly, but it sounds that that's not really what you are looking for.

Kind regards Marcus

[guitpic1]

Jay

I re-read your first thread.  Finding a keyboard with arranger features, that has a decent keybed, and is transportable, is not going to be cheap.  The best I've found so far is Genos that meets the criteria.

That said...

To my way of thinking, the keybed on the S970 is one of its weakest features.  I've still got my S970 and am impressed with its features...not impressed with the key-bed.

If you are a piano player, don't plan to transport the keyboard(I.e. gig)and are not using the arranger features that much...why not settle on the DGX 660 or similar?  I think the DGX series is a lot of keyboard for the money.

A relative of mine, who gigs,went with a Casio stage piano.  Good keybed, light for gigging, but no arranger functions. An arranger module could be added but by then, keyboard plus  module would cost close to the Genos and not have all the features of the Genos.

The PSR E4XX series is a lot of bang for the buck, but was very limiting for me when I started gigging.  Also, once I started gigging, I went through several PSR keyboards, a Tyros and a Korg PA4X, to find a keyboard that works for me...Genos.

Want to save big $$$ in the long run?  Just buy a Genos. 

[panos]

https://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical_instruments/pianos/p_series/index.html

For better keybeds yamaha have different series.
The digital pianos.
Either you would like a Synthesizer,or an Arranger,or a digital piano,or something else that it is with a keybed.
A single instrument couldn't have all these features in one pack, unless is price would be something like 10,000$.
So the search continues.... 

[DerekA]

The accompaniment styles really are the 'killer' feature of an arranger - so if you don't want them, you don't want an arranger.

Rather, you don't want to spend your money on this really big feature that you don't need.

[TiasDad]

If you want to improve the keybed, just add a decent Midi controller keyboard with weighted or semi weighted keys. You can then go 76 or 88 keys too

[Jay B.]

Hi,
Given your background I can fully understand that it is a bit complicated to "connect" to a not weighted 61 keybed.
Is it out of the question to have a separate masterkeyboard/digital piano?
For example Casio have some very nice pianos at the price range starting from 700 USD.

And I think you're right that you need to make up your mind on what it is you want it for, and how you think you gonna use it.
Personally I think some of the major pros with my arranger (PSR-S770) is the ability to play covers and have a virtual backing-band instantly, but it sounds that that's not really what you are looking for.

Kind regards Marcus

Thank you for the response, Marcus. Ultimately, nothing is out of the question. I think right now, I am trying to reclaim my music. Emotion must be part of the equation as well as logic. Even if it looks great "on paper" or YouTube, it has to feel right when I play it. Still working on defining the right board or combination...

[Jay B.]

@ guitpic. Thank you for the feedback. The only instrument I found that I thought would be similar to the DGX-660 is the Korg Havian 30. It appears that is discontinued and not generally available. It has a lot more HP than the DGX, but cost a lot more as well. You are probably right about Genos, but I am not ready to spend $5.5K   extras at the moment. BTW, are you a guitarist that uses the Genos as a backing band? Just curious...

@ panos.  Panos my friend, you may be right. I may have to choose something to get started, and then work my way into the right combination of equipment.

@ DerekA.  Very true and I agree. I want some of the parts and pieces that are contained in the arranger, but I don't want it to be the main performance platform, if I get that far.

@ TiasDad.  Can you suggest a really good 88-key controller?

To All, Once again I appreciate the conversation here as much as the ideas and advice. Very thankful for you and it helps keep me motivated...

[mikf]

https://psrtutorial.com/music/articles/cp33.html
Have a look at this link, it might give you some ideas. There are many digital pianos at a range of prices that can operate as a controller. The CP33 in this article is about high middle of the range.
This a portable arrangement that is sort of best of both worlds. A 76 key arranger gets close to this as well, in a single package, but the keyboard really doesn't have the authentic piano feel if that matters to you. If portability is not important a CVP also combines full piano and arranger features in a neat package. Cost gets a bit high for a new one, but a pretty recent used 605 model might be found for about $4-6k. These are great instruments.
Mike

[guitpic1]

@ guitpic. Thank you for the feedback. The only instrument I found that I thought would be similar to the DGX-660 is the Korg Havian 30. It appears that is discontinued and not generally available. It has a lot more HP than the DGX, but cost a lot more as well. You are probably right about Genos, but I am not ready to spend $5.5K   extras at the moment. BTW, are you a guitarist that uses the Genos as a backing band? Just curious

Keyboard is pretty much all I gig with now.

By the way...Genos is expensive but you can find them much closer to $4K now.

[Jay B.]

To all the helpful, friendly forum members,

I have decided to narrow my options to Yamaha keyboards. I have played and reviewed Korg and Roland keyboards both when I was playing and in my present search. I just tend to click with Yamaha and the tremendous sound they produce. I am still going back and forth over arranger vs workstation. One of the best explanations of the differences in terms of Sequencing/MIDI recording I found was on the Yamaha Synth Forum:

https://www.yamahasynth.com/forum/what-does-it-mean-to-have-the-synth-integrated-with-cubase

You have to read down the page, but this Yamaha expert really gets into pertinent details that I found very helpful. So here is what I am considering:

PSR-S970/975/S770/775 Arranger
Top Pros:  Speed of converting ideas to music, ready-made genres, built-in sound, reasonable cost, made to record onboard
Top Cons:  61 "cheap-feeling" keys (not trying to offend anyone here), tracks can sound canned sometimes, intended for covers

MOXF8 Workstation
Top Pros:  Motif Sound Engine, Onboard sequencing, DAW Integration, ~8000 Arps (drums, bass, others), 88 weighted keys, ultimately better for original arrangements and writing
Top Cons:  Must have speakers/PA to use at all, longer path to producing music, longer learning curve, smaller display encourages more computer use for recording

Odd Choice - DGX-660
Top Pros:  May be a better option to get started, low cost, 88 weighted keys, lots of piano emphasis (I like), some arranging capability, built-in sound, intended for home use
Top Cons:  Very limited recording, limited audio output, if I progress further would quickly outgrow capabilities

I have played all three of these now, so I feel I need to decide on a front runner. My musician self wants the MOXF8. My performer self says get the PSR. My practical self says get the DGX, start playing the pianos, mess with the arranger and see what happens. I'd be very interested in any further thoughts from all of you.

[guitpic1]

I have two of the three keyboards you have listed.  Seems the DGX series is desirable for learning piano...weighted keys and all.

Arrangers work well for songwriting and performing.

[SeaGtGruff]

As far as the suggestion about getting an 88-key controller to use with a PSR-S970 (or PSR-S975), I have been thinking of getting the M-Audio Hammer88.

The pros are its price tag, graded hammer scale action, and the inclusion of MIDI ports as well as USB.

The cons are its lack of the many buttons, knobs, sliders, pads, etc. that people have come to expect from MIDI keyboard controllers, as well as the fact that it's from M-Audio.

It's gotten very positive user reviews from buyers, but I'm reluctant to buy it until I'm able to try one in a store. The only M-Audio product I have is an Axiom 61-II with semi-weighted keys, and I've never had any problems with it, so I'm not sure why M-Audio has such a bad reputation among some of the people who have bought their products.

[panos]

...or maybe a second hand s650-s710-s750 as a second keyboard just for the style part features.
And definetely something with a nice keybed as your first keyboard because it seems very important to you and that is fine.
You must feel joy while you playing and if the touch of a keybed can give you that pleasure then go for it.

[Jay B.]

Panos, Michael, Guitpic, thank you for the replies. I have taken another step today and eliminated the following:

MOXF8 - Great keyboard, but I am not a full-time musician anymore, nor do I plan on being one again anytime soon. It would require a lot of time to learn, program, and produce music - more than I have right now.

I am now back in the Arranger tent. That is a change from what I stated above in the OP. I guess I came to my senses about the amount of time I can allocate to music now. I appreciate your patience with me.

Still considering which board. Genos is too expensive to consider at this stage. Again, if I were playing professionally, I wouldn't bat an eye at the cost. So it's down to PSR-S Line + some sort of 88-key home or stage piano to supplement. I have a few more questions, but am going to move over to the appropriate forum areas.

Many thanks for your help here, folks
Jay B.

[DerekA]

I guess I came to my senses about the amount of time I can allocate to music now

That was the same for me - I used to spend all day programming my Korg synth workstation, but now I just want to sit down and play a song with some degree of sound customisation if I want it. The arranger model is perfect for that.

[Pianoman]

Hello Jay.

I use a Kawai MP11 Stage Piano, and a Tyros 3 for the occasional arranger accompaniment.

It is a good combination, with the sound engines and samples very particular to
each manufacturer.

In fact I am slowly trying to wean myself a bit away from arranger use.

The MP11 probably has the finest keybed in a Stage Piano, and I find that I'm not
using it as much as I should.

That doesn't mean that I won't use an arranger, it just means that I will use it much less than
I do already.

Arrangers are addictive, and when used excessively, they may have a detrimental effect on
Piano playing.

If I understand you correctly, you are still unsure. That is normal, and quite OK.

Take your time and follow your gut feeling.

Once you sign the dotted line, that's it. Too late to change your mind.

Best Regards.
Abby.

[Jay B.]

Thank you, for the encouragement Abby! I watched a few of your videos, and you are quite the pro! I used to do what you do, but I had a whole band with me and usually a large captive audience. I have a great deal of respect and admiration for performers like yourself that entertain and cover pop music. I understand why you use an arranger and if I were doing what you are doing, I would definitely use one, and probably pop for a Genos, too. Keep on Keepin' on, brother!

Jay B.

[Pino]

This is my other set-up
really good sounds
Lightweight and easy setup
If Yamaha made a Genos module
Then I probably would use it.
Pino


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[Pianoman]

Thank you for your kind words Jay.

I am seriously considering a Kronos 88, to use in tandem with my Kawai for some gigs,
and with my Tyros for others.

I understand that it has a steep learning curve, so I would probably need
at least 3 months at home with it, before playing it publicly.

Though I use an Arranger, my predicament is that I am, in a way, an unwilling arranger user.
And I fear that prolonged use will eventually make my left hand too lazy.

I'm beginning to notice the effects.

I used to play the Blues, Ragtime, Boogie Woogie, Rock n Roll, and lounge music,
in Piano Lounges and Honky Tonk bars.

It was just me and a Piano, and no electronic gadgets in sight.

It was as easy as saying cheese.
Now it's a struggle, to play something that used to be second nature to me.

But this is Ibiza. You must have rythm along with the piano playing.
That's where an arranger had to come in.

I have watched videos of the Kronos, it is a phenomenal instrument,
with a good keyboard action apparently.

I've also seen a guy use it in a Jazz quartet here, just as a Piano unfortunately.
But the Piano sample sounded terrific.

I already have a phenomenal Stage Piano in the Kawai MP11, but one has to constantly
reinvent oneself, to stay one step ahead of the competition.

The Kronos would be for something totally different from what I'm playing now.

Best Regards.
Abby.

[panos]

Abby Kronos is a synthesizer not an arranger.
I thought that Synthesizers were used when playing with a band so you don't need styles or for composing music at home or at a studio.
Of course they have the best sounds and the features to make new sounds but what kind of music are you willing to play live with a synthesizer?
Just right and left hand and a drum pattern?
Too much expencive for playing just "basic" sounds like a piano.

[Pianoman]

Hello Panos.

I have listened to the Kronos and you can do many things with it.

It contains music phrases, that may also contain accompaniment such as Drums and Bass,
that one can build upon, if one chooses to.

Or you can start from scratch and create your own music.

Check it out on YouTube, it is a phenomenal instrument.

The idea is to create my own Funk and R&B music, without using pre-recorded
styles as can be found in arrangers.

There's nothing wrong with the styles in arrangers, but I believe that you can do
more with a Workstation.

It will not be for playing covers like I do with an arranger.

But you can create more accurate covers of your own, as opposed to the generic
styles in arrangers, if you wish to do so.

True,it will involve a great deal of work, but the results will be much more satisfying.
One should never be shy of hard work.

I will still use my arranger for my work, while slowly building another repertoire of music,
which I will eventually use to give my music a new dimension.

It is important to reinvent oneself periodically, when you perform in front of people.

It not only gives you new music, but a new personality as well.

Best Regards.
Abby.



PS: For all the Bells and Whistles that come with arrangers, one doesn't have to use them all,
at all times.

More often than not, you'll find that less is actually more.

[Jay B.]

Abby, I totally get why you are going that way. If I were still playing, I would be going down the path of getting a workstation and playing more customized arrangements and voices. I do think you make good use of your Tyros and would enjoy watching you perform live.

One thing that we used to do that was effective with our audience was medleys. You can do artist medleys or style/period medleys, etc. That might take some customized programming, or some tight management of your arranger. One key to a good medley is to change tempo and style during the performance. You probably already know/do this, but I couldn't help making the suggestion. Another thing that seems popular these days is mashups, a la The Piano Guys. You could adapt that to your audience's favorites and they would probably like it...

Anyway, I hope you continue to be successful in your Mediterranean Island Paradise.

Jay B.

[TiasDad]

Jay, my current setup is the S970 with an M-Audio Sono 61, semi-weighted board, which is set to the left 1 voice. I don't mind the keybed on the S970 so still use that for controlling styles and playing lead and use the Sono for fills and quick voice changes.
It suits me and my way of playing, others may wish to set the midi keyboard up as Right 1 or 2 or some other configuration but it does open up a world of new opportunities however you use it

[TiasDad]

Oh and the M-Audio is powered directly from the S970 USB using a usb spllitter (Y cable) so it does not need a seperate power supply.

I have previously had the M-Audio Keystation Pro 88 which was a great keyboard but fully weighted keys are not for me and it was very heavy

[travlin-easy]

Abby, I believe the arranger keyboard, with it's incredible versatility, provides the onstage entertainer with the best of both worlds, mainly because you can use it in so many ways. It can be a stand alone piano if that's all you want for a particular song or performance, but when it comes to putting dancers on the floor, nothing does this better than having those drums and bass line instruments bring up a beat that dancers all relate to. There has been times when I shut off everything other than the bass and drums, and just use a right hand guitar or piano for my lead instrument. For example, the Peggy Lee song Fever, with just a finger pop, bass line and an acoustic guitar while I sang the song to the ladies - they loved it! Couldn't do that with a piano alone. There are so many songs that demand the features offered by an arranger keyboard, and your audiences begin to rely on those wonderful sounds as well.

Now, I'm sure there are times when you only need a piano for background music with no vocals. (I never enjoyed doing those jobs, but they usually paid well and were relatively short in duration. ) Again, just using the arranger keyboard as a piano seems to work quite well for this. However, many of those background music songs were Bossa Novas, and a light bass line seem to enhance the overall sound of the performance rather than just using a piano alone.

Good luck, and I hope you are doing well,

Gary

[brian3284]

Just a quick observation from a gigging keyboard player.  I too yearn for the feel of a traditional piano having been brought up that way 70 yrs ago.  I am now have mobility problems so I have difficulty in lugging equipment round.  I have had high end Technics and Yamaha keyboards but I now find them all too heavy.  I have therefor settled on the lightest  - Yamaha Piaggero V80 which is about 6 kilos, has all the voices and styles i need and has recording facilities.   The main facet is the USB stick storage where I can save all my running order settings.  At my age I settle with the unweighted keyboard and get on with actually playing.  I'm far from giving up because my latest project is to save all my sheet music in digital format to a large 18.5 inch tablet and that saves all the folders.  I'm just a working lad with a passion for entertaining.  Cheers Brian 

[Jay B.]

Thanks Brian,

I have come to the understanding that the keyboard I really want is probably the Genos. At this point in my music "recovery" the price is out of range. I visited another music store in Toronto area and compared the action of the PSR-S770 vs the e453 and found it to be better. Weight is a concern for sure, but so is playability and sound. Thank you again for your input.

Thanks,

Jay B.

[vbdx66]

Hi Jay,

The NP-V 80 has long been discontinued but you might give a try at the PSR EW400. It is a PSR E453 on steroids:  better Live! Grand Piano, 76 keys with a better keybed than the PSR E453, dedicated audio outputs. And since it will be superseded in May by the PSR EW410, you could probably get it for a bargain price and full warranty. If you don't like it it'll be fairly easy to put for sale or it'll make a nice gift to a young person.

Good luck in your search for the Musical Graal 

Best Regards,

Vinciane.

[MarcusAhlback]

...Jay, my current setup is the S970 with an M-Audio Sono 61, semi-weighted board, which is set to the left 1 voice. ...

Hello TiasDad!
How do you do the MIDI-setup to let the Sono only control Left1?
Kind regards Marcus